Issues with Divine Mercy Devotion

[Virginia804]

I don’t see God destroying what He bothered to create.
God’s generousity, his Love, is his greatest attribute.
But what we may all be going through at a particular moment we may feel His greatest attribute, but we are changing, not Him.

 

[requieroveritas]

I don’t see God destroying what He bothered to create.
God’s generousity, his Love, is his greatest attribute.
But what we may all be going through at a particular moment we may feel His greatest attribute, but we are changing, not Him.

Frankly, I don’t see him doing it either, but don’t forget, all of God’s attributes are infinite. This includes his justice.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t get the confusion about confession - EVERY confession is like a second baptism in that it restores the soul to the same state of grace that exists immediately after baptism. I don’t think the emphasis is on confession on Divine Mercy Sunday being different in itself from confession on any other day.

I think it is rather just a general statement that confession at any time is a highly desirable and grace-filled sacrament, which is a message we sorely need in these days when not nearly enough Catholics are taking enough advantage of the sacrament.

True it is that baptism doesn’t of itself remove the stain of original sin, but then it isn’t required to, that has already been removed once for all at baptism.

As for the rest of the message - as has been said, it is a private revelation, and as such you need not believe or participate in it if you do not wish to. And some of the statements well and truly go beyond what St Faustina said. I don’t recall her stating that the precise words were of critical importance or that the end times were nigh or anything.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Well, I’m not sure everyone is on the same page about baptism and plenary indulgences, but be that as it may, going to confession is good, showing mercy is good, and if the devotion doesn’t appeal to someone it seems that’s fine.

The presentation was from the Shrine in Stockbridge. I went to their site and found this very first post about the difference between a plenary indulgance and the special graces of Divine Mercy Sunday:
“4) The most special grace promised by our Lord for Divine Mercy Sunday is nothing less than the equivalent of a complete renewal of baptismal grace in the soul: “complete forgiveness (remission) of sins and punishment.” Such a measure of grace can only be received otherwise through baptism itself, or through making a sacramental confession as an act of perfect contrition for sin, out of pure love for God.”
from this link:
marian.org/divinemercy/story.php?NID=3595

However, on the plus side, they also say no Catholic is required to believe this as a matter of faith.

"This week, a Mr. Dwyer asked: What is the difference between the special graces promised by Jesus for devout communicants on Divine Mercy Sunday, and the plenary indulgence for Divine Mercy Sunday devotions that was instituted several years ago by Pope John Paul II? Are they the same thing? Or are they different?

Simply put: They are NOT the same thing!

The main difference, of course, is that an “indulgence” is something offered to the faithful by the Church, as the keeper of the keys of the kingdom, with authority to “bind and loose” (see Mt 16:17-19). The special graces of Divine Mercy Sunday, on the other hand, were promised directly by our Lord, through a prophetic revelation given to St. Faustina (see Diary of St. Faustina, 699). The Church has not officially ruled that this particular promise was an authentic supernatural revelation (and no Catholic is required to believe it as a matter of faith), but the Church has discerned, in various ways, that there is nothing that violates Catholic doctrine in this promise."

I hope it is OK to post those quote since I reference the link where they are.

If the Church said it’s not harmful, then that’s good.

It sounds to me like you might be getting confused about some of these ideas because of the way they were presented to you. The renewal of baptismal grace is not something uniquely associated with Divine Mercy Sunday. Reconciliation renews our baptismal grace, and every Easter we all renew our Baptismal vows. If you have ever been to an Easter Vigil, it is part of the baptisms for the Church to renounce Satan along with the catechumens, and then after the baptisms, holy water is sprinkled on whole Church, which represents a renewal of our baptismal grace.

There is a also a difference between celebrating Divine Mercy Sunday and choosing to participate in the opportunity for a plenary indulgence. A plenary indulgence is the cancellation not only of the spiritual debt of sin but also of the temporal consequences of that sin. It would be like stealing something and being given not just forgiveness by the person you stole from, but also to have your penalty revoked, and to not have to serve time in jail. If you decided to take God’s offer of a plenary indulgence on Divine Mercy Sunday, you participate in the special worship service where the Divine Mercy chaplet is prayed, receive communion, go to confession, and pray for the intentions of the Pope, all within 20 days of Divine Mercy Sunday.

 

[JReducation]

The Church has always taught that mercy is God’s greatest expression of his love. In this sense, it becomes his greatest attribute. Man does not deserve his mercy. But do we really want God to be fair with us?

Fraternally,

JR

 

[thevickinator16]

Hello!

I wnated to say as far as I could find last night in St Faustina’s diary, Jesus said this would be the last great chance for us sinners. This world has so much technology that sin flows in seconds over phones, radios, tvs, computers etc. He did not say this was the end times. He made it very clear that mankind is deserting Him and His Father at a greater rate though. This has come through technology I do believe. In days of old, it took weeks and months for news to travel (and new ways of sin). Our world is in a sad state. Jesus, through this devotion, is giving us a chance to redeem ourselves like never before. As far as the end times, He is not going to tell us when. He knows when that will be. Do you think seriously if someone told us Jesus told him or her it would be on a certain date, anyone would believe it?

All my life I have been taught to live each day as your last. Our personal endtime is more than likely to happen first. Why worry about the end times, if you are not prepared for your own death?

As for devotions, not all fit everyone. They are truly not a one-size fits all kind of prayer. I have found quite a few beautiful devotions that I do not do. I have found a few that I do. It is a matter of choice. Some people have no devotions other than there rosary and they are very devout. It is a matter for you and your soul as to how you practice your prayer life. I don’t think God loves you any less for your decision.

I hope you do find what you are seekin. I also suggest that you pray to jesus for enlightenment on this subject–after all He started it!

God Bless!

 

[requieroveritas]

Hello!

I wnated to say as far as I could find last night in St Faustina’s diary, Jesus said this would be the last great chance for us sinners.

To thevickinator16,

I found this on another web site dealing with Divine Mercy. I do not have access to the diary of sister Faustina. Have you found this quote anywhere? If so, it certainly should make all of us seek divine Mercy!

Jesus told Saint Faustina that the final age of the world was approaching. The message he was now giving to the world through her was specifically intended to prepare mankind for the end of the world. “Before I come as a just judge, I am coming FIRST as “King of Mercy”! Let all men now approach the throne of my mercy with absolute confidence! Some time before the the last days of final justice arrive, there will be given to mankind a great sign in the heavens of this sort: all the light of the heavens will be totally extinguished. There will be a great darkness over the whole earth. Then a great sign of the cross will appear in the sky. From the openings from where the hands and feet of the savior were nailed will come forth great lights - which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will happen before the very final days. It is the sign for the end of the world. After it will come the days of justice! Let souls have recourse to the fount of my mercy while there is still time! Woe to him who does not recognize the time of my visitation.”

What do you think? Is it from the Diary??

 

[thevickinator16]

To thevickinator16,

I found this on another web site dealing with Divine Mercy. I do not have access to the diary of sister Faustina. Have you found this quote anywhere? If so, it certainly should make all of us seek divine Mercy!

Jesus told Saint Faustina that the final age of the world was approaching. The message he was now giving to the world through her was specifically intended to prepare mankind for the end of the world. “Before I come as a just judge, I am coming FIRST as “King of Mercy”! Let all men now approach the throne of my mercy with absolute confidence! Some time before the the last days of final justice arrive, there will be given to mankind a great sign in the heavens of this sort: all the light of the heavens will be totally extinguished. There will be a great darkness over the whole earth. Then a great sign of the cross will appear in the sky. From the openings from where the hands and feet of the savior were nailed will come forth great lights - which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will happen before the very final days. It is the sign for the end of the world. After it will come the days of justice! Let souls have recourse to the fount of my mercy while there is still time! Woe to him who does not recognize the time of my visitation.”

What do you think? Is it from the Diary??

I had forgotten that. Yes it is in the first notebook of the Diary. I read it to my sister a couple of weeks ago. It is something that I guess could be contstrued as the end times. Trouble is time has no meaning in Heaven and we cannot grasp a reality without time. Some say that the end times started with Jesus’ Death. That is why I like to live as if each day is my last. I am the type if I let myself, I would wait for a sign and then try and “clean” myself up for God. No way am I waiting for that to happen.

I also have heard that the three days of darkness will happen also. I believe these will come together. Several Saints have made revelations on this matter. The three days of darkness descriptions scare me to death. If I am alive at this time, I will be praying like I never have before in my life. For anyone interested in reading about them-google the three days of darkness.

We are reading the diary in the Divine Mercy group thread-Clebration of St Faustina’s Diary. We are still in the first notebook. We discuss it daily. I read it already and that fueled my devotion to the Divine Mercy. I love the chaplet in song and recitation. I have personally witnessed miracles from the Divine Mercy! So have others in this group. Please come and visit the group and read others joy at celebrating the Divine Mercy!

God Bless!

 

[Monica4316]

about confession being like a second ‘baptism’

in a way, it is, because after Confession our souls are clean just as they were after our Baptism.

 

[requieroveritas]

… I also have heard that the three days of darkness will happen also. I believe these will come together. Several Saints have made revelations on this matter. The three days of darkness descriptions scare me to death.

We are reading the diary in the Divine Mercy group thread-Clebration of St Faustina’s Diary. We are still in the first notebook. We discuss it daily. I read it already and that fueled my devotion to the Divine Mercy. I love the chaplet in song and recitation. I have personally witnessed miracles from the Divine Mercy! So have others in this group. Please come and visit the group and read others joy at celebrating the Divine Mercy!

God Bless!

to thevickinator16,

Thank you for the info on the “Three Days of Darkness.” I went to 2 websites so far; one dealt with Saint Pio’s prophesies on the matter. ** I think they are more than scary, they are truely frightening!**
Also, the Divine Mercy Thread you mentioned; what category is it under?

Tks

 

[thevickinator16]

to thevickinator16,

Thank you for the info on the “Three Days of Darkness.” I went to 2 websites so far; one dealt with Saint Pio’s prophesies on the matter. ** I think they are more than scary, they are truely frightening!**
Also, the Divine Mercy Thread you mentioned; what category is it under?

Tks

It is under the Divine Mercy group. All the threads are devoted to the Divine Mercy and how it affects our lives.

The Diary is in the forum. Plwase give us a try and be sure to post your thoughts and feelings!

God Bless!

 

[Virginia804]

OK this is exactly the sort of thing that concerns me. I see some people getting all preoccupied by what this or that mystic has said, and then I see a generalized fear set in, and a sort of unexpressed excitement about it all. I do not see faith, hope, and charity as much as fear. My concern is that all this diversion about the end of the world is a deception by the enemy that causes people to not be about loving their neighbor. Furthermore, the real danger in all this is that is can destroy someone’s faith. Let’s say you believe that in your lifetime the second coming (or whatever terminology you want) will happen, then you are on your deathbed, and it hasn’t happened, and then the though occurs to you that maybe you have been wrong about all your faith and it all gets tossed. I think the danger is that it sets people up to lose their faith.

What did Jesus say in John 21:22 when Peter was asking about what would happen?

22Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

So I ask you, if you find you are thinking about prophecies, and other people and Christ is becoming more and more in the background of that stuff, or if fear is taking over, don’t you think there’s a problem?

 

[thevickinator16]

OK this is exactly the sort of thing that concerns me. I see some people getting all preoccupied by what this or that mystic has said, and then I see a generalized fear set in, and a sort of unexpressed excitement about it all. I do not see faith, hope, and charity as much as fear. My concern is that all this diversion about the end of the world is a deception by the enemy that causes people to not be about loving their neighbor. Furthermore, the real danger in all this is that is can destroy someone’s faith. Let’s say you believe that in your lifetime the second coming (or whatever terminology you want) will happen, then you are on your deathbed, and it hasn’t happened, and then the though occurs to you that maybe you have been wrong about all your faith and it all gets tossed. I think the danger is that it sets people up to lose their faith.

What did Jesus say in John 21:22 when Peter was asking about what would happen?

22Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

So I ask you, if you find you are thinking about prophecies, and other people and Christ is becoming more and more in the background of that stuff, or if fear is taking over, don’t you think there’s a problem?

I am not trying to offend you, only I do not think that these saints, mystics or others that the church recognizes would share their visions if they were not real. Have you not thought about it being a call to spread the word a little more diligently? Maybe it is time for us to take heed and get off our behinds and get out there with the Word? I am not pointing you out personally either.

There are reasons for these vision or revelations. They are accepted by the Church. I choose to believe they are for MY own good and to set me on fire to spread my faith before it is too late. Are we not responsible for our brothers? I do not dwell on the future nor do I live in the past. I live for each minute and that is what makes my faith strong. If you dwell in any other time zone you lose sight of reality. If you lose reality, you can not live your faith daily.

Again these are my beliefs.

God Bless!

 

[CB_Catholic]

OK this is exactly the sort of thing that concerns me. I see some people getting all preoccupied by what this or that mystic has said, and then I see a generalized fear set in, and a sort of unexpressed excitement about it all. I do not see faith, hope, and charity as much as fear. My concern is that all this diversion about the end of the world is a deception by the enemy that causes people to not be about loving their neighbor. Furthermore, the real danger in all this is that is can destroy someone’s faith. Let’s say you believe that in your lifetime the second coming (or whatever terminology you want) will happen, then you are on your deathbed, and it hasn’t happened, and then the though occurs to you that maybe you have been wrong about all your faith and it all gets tossed. I think the danger is that it sets people up to lose their faith.

What did Jesus say in John 21:22 when Peter was asking about what would happen?

22Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

So I ask you, if you find you are thinking about prophecies, and other people and Christ is becoming more and more in the background of that stuff, or if fear is taking over, don’t you think there’s a problem?

I have some agreement with you here.

I think the solution to the whole thing is to say “Jesus, I trust in you.” Then, no matter what happens, you will have peace. I will say, for myself only, that I do not think about or worry about the end times, or end time prophecies, except for the ones in the Bible, and those are not that specific. We know that at some time there will be a tribulation, the nature of which is not specifically revealed, we know that people will abandon their faith, that the love of many will grow cold, because Jesus told us about this, and He told us there would be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc, that are not the end, but will precede the end. However, these things have been happening for years, sometimes more, and sometimes less. The Church is a mess right now, but if you read any history, the Church has been in worse shape and the Holy Spirit has always been there, guiding it through the worst of times, and raising up leaders to reform it, which appears to be happening now, although slowly. Jesus did say, however, that He will come as a theif in the night, when we least expect it, and since so many Christians expect Him to come soon, I have my doubts that now is the time (personal opinion only).

I think when we get scared or worried about end-time prophecies, either Catholic or Protestant, we miss the point of what Sr. Faustina was trying to tell us, and what our last Pope, John Paul II echoed: Be not afraid. Trust Jesus. Trust in His Mercy. Focus on that, and there is nothing to worry about.

All of which, of course is only my opinion of things, others may see things differently. But I do think there is a danger in focusing too much on private revelation concerning the end times–in the first place the Church does not say it has to be believed, it cannot be verified as the truth, only that we may believe in approved revelations; in the second place, it can take our focus off of what we are to be doing, which is spreading the goodnews (Gospel) of our salvation; if we are not careful, we end up spreading bad news, which can turn non-believers away, or weaken the faith of those not strong in it.

 

[requieroveritas]

OK this is exactly the sort of thing that concerns me. I see some people getting all preoccupied by what this or that mystic has said, and then I see a generalized fear set in, and a sort of unexpressed excitement about it all. I do not see faith, hope, and charity as much as fear. My concern is that all this diversion about the end of the world is a deception by the enemy that causes people to not be about loving their neighbor. Furthermore, the real danger in all this is that is can destroy someone’s faith. Let’s say you believe that in your lifetime the second coming (or whatever terminology you want) will happen, then you are on your deathbed, and it hasn’t happened, and then the though occurs to you that maybe you have been wrong about all your faith and it all gets tossed. I think the danger is that it sets people up to lose their faith.

What did Jesus say in John 21:22 when Peter was asking about what would happen?

22Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

I don’t see anyone getting preoccupied here. As for the “this or that mystic” that you refer to, many of these are saints of the church. I see no generalized fear setting in, only a worthwhile discussion concerning personal revelation and how it relates to the need for Divine Mercy. Sister Maria Faustina is one of those Saint “this or that” mystics that you referred to; so is Padre Pio.

I have no intention of running and hiding under my bed. I do see fear as a tool, not to be exploited but put to good use, especially in turning back to God, those who will not turn back for any other reason. And again, I reiterate, what I read was truly frightening. Do you suppose that God, in his infinite wisdom, and displaying his great mercy, should beat about the bush while talking about the subject of his great anger with the way mankind has turned away from him and forgotten him? I would rather suppose that after putting up with man’s dissident nature all these years, that the Lord has issued a pretty stern warning to mankind with the intend to, pardon the pun, “Scare the HELL out of him.”

I am not saying that the individual who is living his or her faith should be fearful. But, there are many, many people who are living no faith at all, and who are in real danger of hell. Contrary to your assumption, I see the spreading of the word of the Divine Mercy and of the possible consequences of failing to return to God as a true act of Faith, of Hope, and of Love. Faith in my God, that he will grant the graces necessary for many to return to him; Hope in his Divine Mercy, and Love, expressed in my desire to see others be saved, either through the strength of their own faith, or as it where, by the Divinity telling it like it is, and scaring many into returning to him.

I think you are way off base in your conjecture that such talk will cause people to loose their faith. We are not speaking of the Guru who leads dozens of people to the mountain top and calmly sits them all down to await the end of the word at precisely such and such time on such and such day. We are talking about prophesies, or predictions if you like, of things to come, but with no specific time line inferred, but made worthy of consideration because they come in our time, and from very holy people, also of our time, and because much is referred to, in them, of our time.

I have to ask you also, what does John 21:22, have to do with this discussion, except for the …”You follow Me,”? But this is exactly the point; many haven’t bothered to follow him.

 

[diggerdomer]

Last Sunday I attended service about the whole Divine Mercy Devotion, and there are some parts of it I have a real issue with. I was wondering if anyone else had these concerns:

1. The business of going to confession on that day (or close to it) was described as like a second Baptism in that it washes away all sin. It seems to me that it sort of devalues normal confession, and we don’t need another sacrament added - a second Baptism.
2. In the video there was an explanation that the Chaplet had to be said with the exact words and such prayers would be particularly effective. I thought it was the state of the heart that mattered, not the exact words. It sounded a bit like a magic formula.

There were parts I did like:
3. I liked the image and the concept of entrusting oneself to Christ, which is what we should do anyway.
4. I liked the focus on the mercy of God, but I think it’s always there, not just on one day.

Anyone else have this reaction?
Or am I not allowed to ask about this?

The major problem I have is the way it has intruded on the Octave of Easter which is contrary to Church teaching (see scborromeo.org/litcal.htm).

I have no problem with this private devotion based on a 20th century person, and one that obviously appealed to Pope John Paul II. As with all the many other Catholic devotions and devotional tradition, it’s part of the wealth of spiritual resources available to the faithful.

But…it’s not liturgy.

I do have a concern about this personal devotion being imposed on the public liturgical year. There is no higher time of our liturgical year than the Easter Triduum, octave, and season. To impose a personal/private/optional devotion on this public worship is somewhat problematic.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

The major problem I have is the way it has intruded on the Octave of Easter which is contrary to Church teaching (see scborromeo.org/litcal.htm).

I have no problem with this private devotion based on a 20th century person, and one that obviously appealed to Pope John Paul II. As with all the many other Catholic devotions and devotional tradition, it’s part of the wealth of spiritual resources available to the faithful.

But…it’s not liturgy.

I do have a concern about this personal devotion being imposed on the public liturgical year. There is no higher time of our liturgical year than the Easter Triduum, octave, and season. To impose a personal/private/optional devotion on this public worship is somewhat problematic.

I have read a different opinion of this issue. Here, it is stated the Octave day of Easter has always been liturgically connected to Divine Mercy.

thedivinemercy.org/mercysunday/dms.php

The Meaning of the Day
Clearly, Divine Mercy Sunday is not a new feast established to celebrate St. Faustina’s revelations. Indeed, it is not primarily about St. Faustina at all — nor is it altogether a new feast! As many commentators have pointed out, The Second Sunday of Easter was already a solemnity as the Octave Day of Easter; nevertheless, the title “Divine Mercy Sunday” does highlight and amplify the meaning of the day…"

 

[thevickinator16]

Hello everyone!

I had intended to post last night and didn’t. I am glad I waited. I thought maybe I was the only one who thought that God’s intervention through the saints and “mystics” was great. I am glad for any extra help that He is willing to give. He does not ask us to practice every devotion that He has made available to us. He gives us a choice on what appeals to our needs the most. It is different for each individual soul. He is aware that It would be ludacrious if we all tried to practice every devotion we came upon.

The Saints were different from us everyday souls, in as far as they truly were touched by God on this earth. They suffered immensely and were rewarded in various ways. We do not celebrate the Saint actually. Because of their level of sanctity, we venerate them and we ask for intercession with God for various purposes. Some were given various visions of things we can only guess at. For example St Catherine of Genoa’s Treatise of Purgatory. www.catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory

This happened to St Catherine as she was purified here on earth. It gives a real understanding to what a soul go through to finally be united with God in Heaven. I enjoy reading what the saints heard and saw, as it fortifies my faith and belief in God immeasurably.

As for the date of Divine Mercy Sunday. Jesus, Himself picked this date. Who are we to argue with Him about it messing with the Easter season? Did you ever stop to think what Easter meant as far as salvation goes? By Jesus’ Death we were given great mercy and we don’t always remember that. When would anyone else suggest a better date to give a one, two punch at Mercy?

I thank Jesus for giving us another chance at His Unfathomable and Incomprehensible Mercy. We have not done what He asked in the first place and He did not have to give us another chance. It shows just how much He loves His creatures, don’t you think so?

God Bless!

 

[whatevergirl]

OK this is exactly the sort of thing that concerns me. I see some people getting all preoccupied by what this or that mystic has said, and then I see a generalized fear set in, and a sort of unexpressed excitement about it all. I do not see faith, hope, and charity as much as fear. My concern is that all this diversion about the end of the world is a deception by the enemy that causes people to not be about loving their neighbor. Furthermore, the real danger in all this is that is can destroy someone’s faith. Let’s say you believe that in your lifetime the second coming (or whatever terminology you want) will happen, then you are on your deathbed, and it hasn’t happened, and then the though occurs to you that maybe you have been wrong about all your faith and it all gets tossed. I think the danger is that it sets people up to lose their faith.

What did Jesus say in John 21:22 when Peter was asking about what would happen?

22Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

So I ask you, if you find you are thinking about prophecies, and other people and Christ is becoming more and more in the background of that stuff, or if fear is taking over, don’t you think there’s a problem?

***Hello;

I read through this thread, very interesting topic!

I don’t really ‘think’ about prophecies, or the end of times, when praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet prayer…did the nun in the video express this, or was the video showing an actress portraying St Faustina? If it was a nun and not St Faustina, then perhaps she was giving her interpretation, as to how she views the prayer? I don’t know many who pray this, and dwell on end times?

I am just a little confused, if you could clarify, that would be helpful to me. Thank you! ***

 

[thevickinator16]

Please check the following thread out:

www.forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?=306653

Makes me believe in the Divine Mercy even more!

God Bless!