Issues with girlfriend on married life

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Piopious

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Hello all!

So I need some guidance and wise life advice. I am going to try to be detailed to get the best advice possible. My girlfriend, of about a year and half, (whom I love very much) and myself have started the conversations of the possibility of marriage. We have disputed views on specifically sex and planning for children within married life. She has proposed using contraception. Specifically she has sided with using condoms and non-hormonal artificial contraception. I want to stick with the Church’s teaching of Natural Family Planning. I do not always have the right answers for her, but I try to show her the Church’s teaching is a loving one. But because I am a guy and do not have the responsibility of carrying the baby, my views that NFP can be fulfilling in a marriage do not translate to her. Her worries are (1) that NFP is not really as effective as contraception (2) that NFP will not be fulfilling sexually, (3) that whenever we are intimate she has to worry about becoming pregnant, (4) that the openness to children could compromise her career (because we are both young) (5) that the difficulty of abstinence in marriage is too great, and (6) that in old age, we may want to stop having children. The argument has gotten to the point that she will not listen to me and needs testimony from women who have done NFP, met all these challenges, and had a happy marriage (without 20 kids). I know this is some heavy stuff, but I am trying to find testimony in any way that I can.

Thank you so much if you can help!

God Bless!

(BTW! I plan to show her this thread so she can read your testimonies)
 
I will give you advice you likely don’t want to hear.

This is a dealbreaker. If you enter into a marriage with someone who does not only merely consent to NFP but embrace it, you are in trouble.

I suggest you focus less on NFP and focus on the fact that contraception is immoral. It is intrinsically evil and is NEVER an option. Until you get past that, you are just spinning your wheels. Your girlfriend rejects the truth that what she wants to do is a grave evil.

The real choices in marriage are periodic abstaining through NFP or more prolonged abstaining through complete continence.

You have a *serious *issue here, one that cannot be argued and debated nor given statistics. You have a matter of the heart here, a heart that requires full conversion to the truth about contracpetion and the purpose of marriage. Her arguments about career, etc, are deflecting the REAL issue-- which is a complete lack of understanding of the sacrament of marriage and of the sixth commandment.

This may not be the woman for you.
 
Piopious said:

“that whenever we are intimate she has to worry about becoming pregnant”

Pregnancy always has to be treated as a possibility for a woman who has all of her reproductive organs, hasn’t gone into menopause, and is having intercourse.

As I recall, 50% of unplanned pregnancies occur among couples who were using contraception.

If one isn’t willing to deal with the possibility of pregnancy, one isn’t ready to for either sex or marriage.

“that in old age, we may want to stop having children.”

In old age, you will stop having children. I guarantee it.

More seriously, I’m a 38-year-old woman, I’ve been married 15+ years, have never used contraception, and I have had a total of four pregnancies and have three living children. We had a couple of surprises (although we actually had been talking about trying for a baby before the surprises), but I am very happy with our results. At this point in our lives, we are shifting to a more conservative style of NFP, but I think it is a lot easier for older people to deal with abstinence.

I recommend 1) several months of charting before marriage 2) doing a real course if you can. The more of a track record you have, the more confident you’ll be.

Oh, and your girlfriend might appreciate the book Taking Charge of Your Fertility, which is a secular work on fertility. The stuff about using condoms during the fertile time is not applicable (and frankly, why take that risk?), but it’s a very reassuring book.
 
You may love her, but she’s not the “One”. If you can’t agree on matters of faith, then you’ve lost the unifying foundation of life’s decision making process. You should keep looking and don’t compromise your faith.

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Also, bear in mind that the practical knowledge of women’s cycles and fertility is now a pretty mainstream thing, at least as far as achieving pregnancy is concerned. Out in the secular world, people are now taking temperatures, checking mucus, charting, doing ovulation tests, etc. when trying to conceive.

With our last baby, we were very highly motivated to conceive as soon as possible, I read TCOYF, and we got pregnant in the very first month that we had the medical green light to do so.
 
Piopious said:
Hello all!

So I need some guidance and wise life advice. I am going to try to be detailed to get the best advice possible. My girlfriend, of about a year and half, (whom I love very much) and myself have started the conversations of the possibility of marriage. We have disputed views on specifically sex and planning for children within married life. She has proposed using contraception. Specifically she has sided with using condoms and non-hormonal artificial contraception. I want to stick with the Church’s teaching of Natural Family Planning. I do not always have the right answers for her, but I try to show her the Church’s teaching is a loving one. But because I am a guy and do not have the responsibility of carrying the baby, my views that NFP can be fulfilling in a marriage do not translate to her. Her worries are (1) that NFP is not really as effective as contraception (2) that NFP will not be fulfilling sexually, (3) that whenever we are intimate she has to worry about becoming pregnant, (4) that the openness to children could compromise her career (because we are both young) (5) that the difficulty of abstinence in marriage is too great, and (6) that in old age, we may want to stop having children. The argument has gotten to the point that she will not listen to me and needs testimony from women who have done NFP, met all these challenges, and had a happy marriage (without 20 kids). I know this is some heavy stuff, but I am trying to find testimony in any way that I can.

Thank you so much if you can help!

God Bless!

(BTW! I plan to show her this thread so she can read your testimonies)
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I may be able to address #6. After our second child, I had a health issue that made getting pregnant again unwise. We weren’t in “old age” but we knew we shouldn’t have anymore children. We successfully used NFP until I passed through menopause.

If I were you, I would be very concerned with her attitude. She doesn’t sound like she will be entering marriage with the intent to lovingly accept children as a Gift from God. It’s also concerning that she wants to stay away from hormonal contraceptives, which have side effects for HER but she is willing to have YOU wear a condom, putting the sin of contraception on you. One of the big goals of marriage is to help your spouse reach heaven. Leading a potential spouse into sin is not a good sign.
 
Piopious said:
Her worries are (1) that NFP is not really as effective as contraception
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Check out this link.
(2) that NFP will not be fulfilling sexually,
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Actually, sex is more fulfilling sexually. Sorry, but it doesn’t sound very loving or very exciting to have sex with a sheet between me and my husband, so why would I want a condom between us?
(3) that whenever we are intimate she has to worry about becoming pregnant,
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Not if she uses NFP. The worry would be if you used nothing.
(4) that the openness to children could compromise her career (because we are both young)
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Sorry, but that sounds very similar to what Obama said about his daughters being punished with a child.
(5) that the difficulty of abstinence in marriage is too great, and
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Her last two “worries” tells me that she has bought into separating sex and procreation. Sex makes babies. The Church gives us a way to avoid children by abstaining during fertile times.
(6) that in old age, we may want to stop having children.
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In old age, you won’t be able to have children. And if you are able to have children, and you have a just reason to avoid children, then you would continue to use NFP.
The argument has gotten to the point that she will not listen to me and needs testimony from women who have done NFP, met all these challenges, and had a happy marriage (without 20 kids). I know this is some heavy stuff, but I am trying to find testimony in any way that I can.
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Thank you so much if you can help!
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God Bless!
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(BTW! I plan to show her this thread so she can read your testimonies)
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👋
I am a woman. We have used NFP. And we don’t have 20 children. And honestly, I don’t know any Catholic family that has 20 children.

Oh and I have used NFP for 10 years, to avoid pregnancy. I have many health issues that make getting pregnant ill advised.
Piopious said:
Yes, she is. She will not believe a man’s testimony and she wants to see a catholic woman’s perspective on NFP.
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Just an FYI 1ke is a woman. The first “letter” of her user name is the number one, not the letter “I.”
 
Ok, here goes my testimony. I fit some of the requirements. (However, I’m only in my mid-twenties.) You may not like it though!

Short version: 1ke is correct. You should think long and hard about this.

Long version: It sounds like she has a lot of reservations, and that she may be trying to make the foot fit the shoe. I understand her concerns. I’m going through some of the same frustrations. That being said, NFP can be used contraceptively, and her concerns do sound like a matter of the heart. This will not only affect her, but you. I’m not saying they cannot be overcome, but I am saying this is not something to be taken lightly.

I embraced Church teaching on this topic, and yet I still struggled with it. My concerns were/are financial. If I struggled with it, she will too.

Here’s my response to your breakdown:
  1. NFP is effective, for both avoiding and achieving. I have experience in both. Additionally, charting helped me discover a health problem I didn’t know I had. She’s right to be concerned about hormonal methods.
  2. Why does she think it won’t be sexually fulfilling? I love it. It makes me feel so unbelievably special as a woman, and I find my husband respects the mystery of my fertility.
  3. See number 1. This signals something of a contraceptive concern to me.
  4. She’s really not going to like this. It in fact just might compromise her career. I myself have chosen to stay-at-home, because I don’t want to feel conflicted. But I know women can be successful in both walks. They’re super-women! It also doesn’t mean I don’t have future goals for myself. I would like to go to graduate school someday. However, I want to sacrifice my potential education for my children’s potential education. I’ve come to realize that my life isn’t over just because I have children.
  5. As hard as it is to believe, abstinence isn’t too difficult. 🙂 One thing that I started to suspect before I got married is that the Church’s teaching regarding chastity was to exercise us for the real test during marriage. I don’t think this point ever really gets mentioned. It forces you to expand your relationship in other ways, too. You gotta get creative!
  6. What does she think is old-age? There are legitimate reasons to use NFP.
Lastly, condoms fail too. If you accept Church teaching, then isn’t she placing the onus on you to do something you consider sinful?

Ok, for real lastly. Forums are one thing. But, for your own benefit, you may want to read up more on Church teaching regarding this. Someone else may know of a good online resource for you. But be prepared. If you get married in the Church, this will likely be covered in your marriage-prep. At least it was in mine. This issue won’t just go away.
 
1ke said:
I will give you advice you likely don’t want to hear.

This is a dealbreaker. If you enter into a marriage with someone who does not only merely consent to NFP but embrace it, you are in trouble.

I suggest you focus less on NFP and focus on the fact that contraception is immoral. It is intrinsically evil and is NEVER an option. Until you get past that, you are just spinning your wheels. Your girlfriend rejects the truth that what she wants to do is a grave evil.

The real choices in marriage are periodic abstaining through NFP or more prolonged abstaining through complete continence.

You have a *serious *issue here, one that cannot be argued and debated nor given statistics. You have a matter of the heart here, a heart that requires full conversion to the truth about contracpetion and the purpose of marriage. Her arguments about career, etc, are deflecting the REAL issue-- which is a complete lack of understanding of the sacrament of marriage and of the sixth commandment.

This may not be the woman for you.
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+1

As a man, my advice would be first, try providing information without arguing. Give her good reading and listening materials about the Catholic Church’s teaching on contraception, such as “Contraception, Why Not” by Janet Smith. And if you get some good replies from women here as you requested, ask your girlfriend to read some of those.

But if it is clear that she just isn’t going to budge on this issue, then I think you should seriously consider that you might not be called to marriage with this woman. If she does not have a change of heart on this issue sooner or later, then this could be something that drives a wedge between the two of you throughout the entire time of your fertile years. My wife and I find too many things to fight about as it is, but at least we are on the same page with contraception vs. NFP. If we had to fight about contraception, I hate to contemplate the damage that would do to our marriage.

In conclusion, I’ll also tell you that my wife was not initially convinced about Catholic teaching on contraception. But once she learned the reasoning behind the teaching, she came to embrace it. I hope that the same will happen with your girlfriend.
 
I am only recently married, but as a woman, I can assure her that whether or not she is ready to trust NFP as being effective, charting is wonderfully empowering for women no matter what their state in life. Charting, even if you are not sexually active lets you learn so much about yourself and helps give you confidence knowing that you will never have to worry about a “feminine issue” springing itself on you unexpectedly. It helps you determine what various symptoms you experience cyclically and also gives you the power to know when you will next experience them so that you can prepare for them, and so gain control over them and the way they effect your life. Another point, as was brought up earlier, is that it can help women identify medical issues they would not otherwise have known about. I would set aside the issue of whether she’s willing to use it as an aide for planning your family and see if she is willing to try charting now for her own sake. I also second the book Taking Charge of Your Fertility, it comes from a secular approach which your gf may find reassuring.

Whatever happens, good luck with your discernment.
 
Piopious said:
Yes, she is. She will not believe a man’s testimony and she wants to see a catholic woman’s perspective on NFP.
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Lighthouse Catholic Media has a CD by Prof. JANET E. Smith entitled “Contraception: Cracking the Myths” that might be of help to you and your lady. Our parish has it available on our CD rack.
 
As a NFP user, I was very sorry I didn’t know about it much earlier. The length between periods tended to vary quite a bit and after I learned NFP, I could always tell when ovulation was delayed, and when it happened. The proof was my period coming at 12 to 13 days. There is science behind NFP and I encourage her to look into it. She can learn to chart and observe like the rest of us did, and see for herself.

I spent time with neighbors who lived to see almost 60 years of marriage. A Catholic couple, who welcomed 8 children. I don’t think NFP was around all those years ago and well developed like it is now, but never the less, people at that time treasured children and certainly having 4 or 5 was normal at that time. They were in their 80’s and I loved to come by at lunch time when both were sitting at the kitchen table. There was always fresh flowers on the table, people calling to say Hello, kids and grandkids shoveling the snow, cutting the grass, vacuuming the basement. They came over and brought food. The husband got cancer and he passed away in his own bed at home, only because there were enough people around to make it possible. It gave me a very different perspective on what is important in life and what matters in your golden years. Jobs came and went, but kids and grandkids are the treasures in life. With their Catholic upbringing, I never saw the fighting and bickering, the “I’m not talking to so and so” stuff that goes on in families. People were respectful, kind, generous. A beautiful legacy. You don’t know what your Catholic faith can bless you with until you look at the other side, the end of life, and I’m so glad you are here today. God bless.
 
getysbg said:
Lighthouse Catholic Media has a CD by Prof. JANET E. Smith entitled “Contraception: Cracking the Myths” that might be of help to you and your lady. Our parish has it available on our CD rack.
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There is another CD that I recommend

Prove It, God … and He did. by Patty Schneier

Both are available on line as well, if your parish doesn’t carry the CDs.
 
Piopious said:
. The argument has gotten to the point that she will not listen to me and needs testimony from women who have done NFP, met all these challenges, and had a happy marriage (without 20 kids). I know this is some heavy stuff, but I am trying to find testimony in any way that I can.
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A true Catholic testimony speaks of all the suffering one goes through and yet they still feel close to God. Sure some woman may say ‘Using NFP is great’. However a lot will say ‘It causes suffering but I do it because I want to do God’s will’

Honestly, NFP is not the only issue we need to trust God with. There are tons of other stuff such as health and not loosing our loved ones. If she can’t trust God on NFP, I wonder whether she will turn to God when other challenges arise in her marriage.

So, in a nutshell, I don’t think the ‘good testimony’ will change her mind nor guarantee she will have a happy marriage herself
 
I further agree with 1ke’s post. She hit the nail on the head. You really need to think long and hard if you two are right for each other.

I couldn’t imagine giving my husband an ultimatum that would cause him to sin. I want him to get to heaven as much as I want to go to heaven. I love him so much and would never dream of telling him he had to use condoms in order for us to plan out our family. That is a grave sin and completely against Church teaching. So is using any kind of contraception.

She’ll hate to read this but its the truth. She needs to take her emotions out of it and realize she is acting very selfishly towards herself. Life just doesn’t work that way and marriage certainly doesn’t work that way either.

She also needs to learn some basic biology. I assume she is going off of the poor information she got in health class at school in order to scare her into using contraception. The cold hard fact is you cannot get pregnant at anytime during your cycle. A women is only fertile for a certain time out of the entire month.
Here are the answers to your questions:
  1. I have been using NFP for about 3 years now. We had our first child early on and were successfully able to use NFP to space and eventually plan for our next child. They are almost 2 years apart.
    So, does NFP work? Yes it does. Does it work as well as contraception? Yes it does.
    But there is a philosophy behind it that goes further then the coldness of contraception.
  2. NFP is VERY fulfilling sexually. The sex is better, period. There is nothing coming between you two. It’s sex the way it’s supposed to be…totally giving yourselves to each other with no barriers. Plus, the wait makes it that much sweeter when you do get to come together again. Sex doesn’t become tired or old. Contraception turns sex into an all-you-can-eat buffet that will make you sick. NFP turns it into a delicious and special meal that makes you want more.
  3. Once again. She needs a simple biology lesson to know that this is impossible. You BOTH need to take a class together and learn more about how the female reproductive system actually works and how NFP works.
  4. Once again. She needs to take the emotions out of this and stop thinking selfishly. We can’t have everything in life. She can work and be a mother. She can also opt to stay home with the kids.
    I stay home with the kids and my husband works. But that may change and I may be going back to work soon.
    Ultimately she needs to understand that God comes first and family comes second. Having this high-powered career isn’t the most important thing in life.
  5. It’s tough but it’s inevitable whether you are using NFP or not. Sometimes abstinence is going to happen whether you want it to or not and you need to prepare for it.
    Having a toddler and a nursing infant means my sex life is infrequent at best. Health issues pop up and sometimes abstinence is mandatory.
  6. Does she mean a permanent fix like a tubal or vasectomy? That is against Church teaching too. You can use NFP long term if that is what she wants to know.
On a more personal note…NFP has been challenging for my husband and I lately. I’m nursing my newest addition but have gotten my fertility back…sort of. I’m not blessed like some mothers who nurse and have zero return to their fertility for months and months.

I’ve discovered that my cycles are just really messed up thanks to the nursing.
I’m ovulating but my luteal phase or my phase three (the infertile time where couples take advantage to have sex while using NFP) is really short.
Normal phase three is about 2 weeks but about 10 days is the limit for an embryo to attach itself to the uterine wall and begin to grow…anything less then that and it becomes difficult or impossible to be pregnant.
My phase three is 1-2 days…totally impossible for me to be pregnant. The problem is I don’t know what my phase three is going to be until I get there. I have to assume I can get pregnant. So hubby and I are abstaining for a vast majority of my cycle.

We pray together and find other ways to show each other we are in love. We just express our love in different ways. It’s tough but it won’t be forever.
 
I have a couple of points.
  1. You are not “required” to practice NFP at all. NFP is a way to help you discern living out the vocation of your marriage. If you are using NFP in place of contraception as a way to dictate to God when you will be open to your marital fulfillment then you will fail at both the NFP and marriage. NFP is a tool the Church (God) allows to help us when we are not ready or able to have children. When you get married as a Catholic you promise to accept children lovingly from God. There is not a second part of that that says “on our terms and our terms alone”
  2. I would be very very gunshy of a woman who has been fed and believes the “you are not a woman it isn’t your body” type of rhetoric. That is exactly the false view that many pro abortion women use to kill. This type of view is poisonous in the bedroom and is not consistent with the faith. A woman who puts being a woman ahead of her faith or her husband is not a Catholic woman.
  3. I am a man. But I am one with a woman. We began our marriage using ABC, we then used NFP, we then used nothing at all. It was our journey of faith. And while we found our way to Holy union and Holy sex. It was not easy. It was nights full of tears, hurt and bruised egos and selfish punishments on both sides. I do not recommend it and sometimes wonder how we ever made it. While our family is a happy one, and my marriage is amazing. I cannot imagine it is a smart way to get to the point we are at. Nor do I imagine many couples are able to do what we have done.
A woman who wants to jeopardize your soul by putting a condition on sex and a condom on you, is not accepting you as her husband but is lying to you with her body. As it is now, I could not “perform” if my wife suggested such an unloving sickening thing to me.
 
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