Issues with girlfriend on married life

[InspiritCarol]

(1) that NFP is not really as effective as contraception
That really depends.
(2) that NFP will not be fulfilling sexually,
JUST … THE … OPPOSITE …
I can not be emphatic enough about this.

(3) that whenever we are intimate she has to worry about becoming pregnant,
If that’s the kind of person she is then I don’t think any contraception method will change this.

(4) that the openness to children could compromise her career (because we are both young)
Been there … thought that … I didn’t have my first child until I was 33.
How I wish I had started having them sooner.
Would that I could have had 20. There is no career that can compare to the vocation of motherhood. If I were given the choice between being president/emperor or mother, I would unhesitatingly choose mother. There is no shame in being a mother. Still, there are plenty of women who have been able to do both, I suppose.

(5) that the difficulty of abstinence in marriage is too great, and
It helps a woman feel truly loved. It actually helps us as a couple to feel more strongly bonded.

(6) that in old age, we may want to stop having children.
Define old age. I am 42, pregnant, and overjoyed at the prospect of another little one.
God has given me the grace of strength and the gift of help from others in miraculous ways.

I must confess, this fear tries to creep forward in my mind at times, especially when the OB’s office pushes for me to get sterilized after each birth (they want to do it while you’re already in the hospital). It all comes down to a solid trust I have in God. This is so easily reinforced when I see my children. This can not be passed on through words.

Please ask your girlfriend to pray about this and have her feel free to PM me with any personal questions.

I *understand *where her doubt comes from.

 

[Cathmomof6]

Hello all!

So I need some guidance and wise life advice. I am going to try to be detailed to get the best advice possible. My girlfriend, of about a year and half, (whom I love very much) and myself have started the conversations of the possibility of marriage. We have disputed views on specifically sex and planning for children within married life. She has proposed using contraception. Specifically she has sided with using condoms and non-hormonal artificial contraception. I want to stick with the Church’s teaching of Natural Family Planning. I do not always have the right answers for her, but I try to show her the Church’s teaching is a loving one. But because I am a guy and do not have the responsibility of carrying the baby, my views that NFP can be fulfilling in a marriage do not translate to her. Her worries are (1) that NFP is not really as effective as contraception (2) that NFP will not be fulfilling sexually, (3) that whenever we are intimate she has to worry about becoming pregnant, (4) that the openness to children could compromise her career (because we are both young) (5) that the difficulty of abstinence in marriage is too great, and (6) that in old age, we may want to stop having children. The argument has gotten to the point that she will not listen to me and needs testimony from women who have done NFP, met all these challenges, and had a happy marriage (without 20 kids). I know this is some heavy stuff, but I am trying to find testimony in any way that I can.

Thank you so much if you can help!

God Bless!

(BTW! I plan to show her this thread so she can read your testimonies)

I get the impression that you are looking for testimonies from women who have used NFP successfully for many years, i.e. many years of marriage with only 2-3 kids. Well, we probably don’t meet that, but I wanted to share my perspective.

My husband and I have been married for 15 years and are expecting our 7th baby. We certainly never planned for seven babies. In fact, the first two years, we used birth control basically because we weren’t ready for children (I was still finishing college) and we were not mature in our faith. Since we have come to more fully embrace the Catholic teachings on marital intimacy, our marriage has been monumentally blessed. Sex is 1000X better sans birth control - nothing messing with your hormones and no barriers. My husband and I have no serious health or financial reasons to avoid. Desire is much higher during ovulation, so we have many “what the heck” babies! My husband respects the female body, and I never feel used. We are far from perfect. We have our share of problems, but this is one area that unites us deeply, especially since it is so counter cultural! Now we are nearing 40 (“old age”) and many of our friends are sterilizing themselves with tubal ligations or vasectomies. That sure seems like the easy way, but we have decided to more seriously use NFP. I often feel sorry for those couples who don’t get to experience sex without birth control. I agree with the other posters that this could be a deal breaker. Your marriage will be soooo much stronger if you can come to agreement on this issue!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

1. NFP is VERY fulfilling sexually. The sex is better, period. There is nothing coming between you two. It’s sex the way it’s supposed to be…totally giving yourselves to each other with no barriers. Plus, the wait makes it that much sweeter when you do get to come together again. Sex doesn’t become tired or old. Contraception turns sex into an all-you-can-eat buffet that will make you sick. NFP turns it into a delicious and special meal that makes you want more.

I have to take issue with number 2.

Having used all three things in our marriage. ABC (Norplant, condoms) and NFP and nothing) I can tell you without any reservations that the sex using nothing is far far better the sex with ABC was pretty good and the sex with NFP was cold pizza. (still good but, meh.) I feel quite strongly about this issue, as a former NFP instructor and practitioner. When we package and sell NFP as better than something else. When we say, “oh, those people on ABC don’t know what they are missing” and NFP makes your marriage better, your sex better and your life will smell like roses, we create a situation where people will abandon the process before it has a chance to take hold. The fact is that NFP is inconvenient, hard, and limiting. The good news is that it beats the alternative!

Also biologically speaking the “best sex” is usually when fertility is peaking. The woman’s body is geared to it. From the position of the cervix to the mucus, everything is focused on better sex during the fertile times. In our NFP instruction, many women reported the need for lubrication or the presence of pain during non fertile times.

So, lets not false advertise here!

 

[Cathmomof6]

I have to take issue with number 2.

Having used all three things in our marriage. ABC (Norplant, condoms) and NFP and nothing) I can tell you without any reservations that the sex using nothing is far far better the sex with ABC was pretty good and the sex with NFP was cold pizza. (still good but, meh.) I feel quite strongly about this issue, as a former NFP instructor and practitioner. When we package and sell NFP as better than something else. When we say, “oh, those people on ABC don’t know what they are missing” and NFP makes your marriage better, your sex better and your life will smell like roses, we create a situation where people will abandon the process before it has a chance to take hold. The fact is that NFP is inconvenient, hard, and limiting. The good news is that it beats the alternative!

Also biologically speaking the “best sex” is usually when fertility is peaking. The woman’s body is geared to it. From the position of the cervix to the mucus, everything is focused on better sex during the fertile times. In our NFP instruction, many women reported the need for lubrication or the presence of pain during non fertile times.

So, lets not false advertise here!

That is probably very true for a man, but I would suspect it may be different for a women! I actually disliked the long period of amenorrhea while breastfeeding mainly because sex was so different from when I was having normal cycles (probably very similar to someone using hormonal ABC to suppress fertility.) While we were able to enjoy the marital embrace without fear of pregnancy, my desire was definitely diminished. (And I just think condoms are a real buzz-kill and kind of gross but that maybe just my opinion!)

I would agree that nothing is by far the best but ABC messing with a women’s hormones is going to lower her libido, which NFP would not!

 

[InspiritCarol]

That is probably very true for a man, but I would suspect it may be different for a women! I actually disliked the long period of amenorrhea while breastfeeding mainly because sex was so different from when I was having normal cycles (probably very similar to someone using hormonal ABC to suppress fertility.) While we were able to enjoy the marital embrace without fear of pregnancy, my desire was definitely diminished. (And I just think condoms are a real buzz-kill and kind of gross but that maybe just my opinion!)

I would agree that nothing is by far the best but ABC messing with a women’s hormones is going to lower her libido, which NFP would not!

Agreed. And my husband agrees too.
“Cold pizza?” If my husband thought that about me let alone announced it to the world, our sex life might just become that way.

 

[underacloud]

There are two broader issues here that need to be considered:

a) the morality of contraception vs NFP.

b) the practicalities of NFP.

It seems at the moment that the GF is only interested in considering the practicalities, and then will consider the morality if the practicalities seem OK. Unfortunately, this way of thinking is putting the cart before the horse. Tackle this first as a moral issue, and then worry about the practicalities.

Here are a few serious questions for you Piopious: if she is ready to ignore clear Church teaching in this issue, what other issues will she ignore? What is the foundation of her faith and morals? What about divorce, if marriage proves hard? The Catholic Church remains about the only western Christian denomination that still holds to Christ’s teaching on divorce, but if she abandons the Church teaching on this matter, what other issues are in doubt?

On this issue, you may find that looking into the statistics is sobering in this regard (with more time I can try to find the research). Divorce rates among church going Catholics who practise NFP are extremely low, while divorce rates among Catholics who are lax in their faith are about the same as the rest of society. On that basis alone, yes, NFP is good for marriage.

As someone (a male) who has practised NFP for most of our marriage, I can tell you that it can be hard. The periods of abstinence can be hard. The charting can be hard. The countdown to the end of each cycle can be hard. The unexpected pregnancies can be hard. But I have a great marriage and wonderful family. I love my four children and would not give any of them back. I have little doubt that if my wife and I had used ABC that we would have only one or two of these children, we would have a heap more money, and to be honest we - or at least I - would be much more selfish and self-centred people than we are now.

If you are not prepared for marriage and a family to be hard work at times, do not get married. But if you’re prepared for the hard work, and to put your trust in God, then the rewards can be so much greater than the struggles. In a Catholic marriage, NFP (if a couple has need to avoid pregnancy) is part of that deal.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Agreed. And my husband agrees too.
“Cold pizza?” If my husband thought that about me let alone announced it to the world, our sex life might just become that way.

yeah, I kinda just fell into the equivalent of “do I look fat in this dress?”

 

[InspiritCarol]

As someone (a male) who has practised NFP for most of our marriage, I can tell you that it can be hard. The periods of abstinence can be hard. The charting can be hard. The countdown to the end of each cycle can be hard. The unexpected pregnancies can be hard. But I have a great marriage and wonderful family. I love my four children and would not give any of them back. I have little doubt that if my wife and I had used ABC that we would have only one or two of these children, we would have a heap more money, and to be honest we - or at least I - would be much more selfish and self-centred people than we are now.

Wow. I couldn’t have said it better and I’m a mother of 4 with number 5 on the way.

I have been horrifically sick for all but one of my pregnancies but could never imagine doing without even one of these little ones God has trusted to me for a time.

I am constantly told heartbreaking remarks from older women who wished they had let themselves have more or from younger women who sorrow because their husbands “will not let them have more”.

Your girlfriend is mislead like so many of us have been. The question is can she outgrow it? Engaged encounter may help you work through this…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Agreed. And my husband agrees too.
“Cold pizza?” If my husband thought that about me let alone announced it to the world, our sex life might just become that way.

NFP was “cold pizza” because sex was not spontaneous. We had charts on the fridge and were using lady comp at one point so a computer was telling us when we could have sex.
While both of our bodies seemed to be in tune with having sex during “red light time” it became frustrating and “green light time” was not as fun. And “yellow light time” was full of worries.

Without NFP there is no more cold pizza, just good italian! I have no problems with using the term cold pizza, my wife is sitting next to me as I type this.

 

[Kelfa28]

I have to take issue with number 2.

Having used all three things in our marriage. ABC (Norplant, condoms) and NFP and nothing) I can tell you without any reservations that the sex using nothing is far far better the sex with ABC was pretty good and the sex with NFP was cold pizza. (still good but, meh.) I feel quite strongly about this issue, as a former NFP instructor and practitioner. When we package and sell NFP as better than something else. When we say, “oh, those people on ABC don’t know what they are missing” and NFP makes your marriage better, your sex better and your life will smell like roses, we create a situation where people will abandon the process before it has a chance to take hold. The fact is that NFP is inconvenient, hard, and limiting. The good news is that it beats the alternative!

Also biologically speaking the “best sex” is usually when fertility is peaking. The woman’s body is geared to it. From the position of the cervix to the mucus, everything is focused on better sex during the fertile times. In our NFP instruction, many women reported the need for lubrication or the presence of pain during non fertile times.

So, lets not false advertise here!

For you maybe it wasn’t good sex.

For me, it has always been better sex. I’ve been on both ABC and have used NFP.
The hormones have always killed my mood.
I didn’t know how much until I stopped taking the pill and started charting.

Yes, it is frustrating when you are abstaining during phase 2 and your body is just screaming for sex. I’ve been there. But I would pray, talk to my husband and remind myself that we weren’t ready for a pregnancy at that moment.

When we were trying for a baby…well, the sex was the best I’ve ever had in my life.

I’m not making this up. For me…NFP sex is better.

Not that I think NFP is all sunshine and roses. I never said it was. It’s difficult for everyone at times.
I took issue with instructors reporting that nursing an infant virtually guarantees you natural infertility for as long as you nurse.

I’ve discovered that is definitely not true for me. What makes it worse is that my cycles are so messed up that I’m abstaining for a huge majority of the month because the’ve become so difficult to interpret.

I stand by my statement though, NFP sex is better.
I don’t need spontaneous sex. We plan around the month and the anticipation makes it exciting.

 

[InspiritCarol]

NFP was “cold pizza” because sex was not spontaneous. We had charts on the fridge and were using lady comp at one point so a computer was telling us when we could have sex.
While both of our bodies seemed to be in tune with having sex during “red light time” it became frustrating and “green light time” was not as fun. And “yellow light time” was full of worries.

Without NFP there is no more cold pizza, just good italian! I have no problems with using the term cold pizza, my wife is sitting next to me as I type this.

I see what your saying but maybe you men just need to spend some more time warming the pizza.

Foreplay for women is way way different than from men.
I’m not kidding when I say this. Nothing heats the pizza better than when he does a couple of loads of dishes. (The second half was literal). Yep: dishes.

I will grant your Italian truths but I will give you some Polish advice.
Help her out - and this is the key part - without expecting sex in return; that is help her out unconditionally (especially the dishes) and you won’t be needing a stove to be boiling any water.

 

[TCEL]

i see what your saying but maybe you men just need to spend some more time warming the pizza.

Foreplay for women is way way different than from men.
I’m not kidding when i say this. Nothing heats the pizza better than when he does a couple of loads of dishes. (the second half was literal). Yep: Dishes.

i will grant your italian truths but i will give you some polish advice.
Help her out - and this is the key part - without expecting sex in return; that is help her out unconditionally (especially the dishes) and you won’t be needing a stove to be boiling any water.

hahaha!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I see what your saying but maybe you men just need to spend some more time warming the pizza.

Foreplay for women is way way different than from men.
I’m not kidding when I say this. Nothing heats the pizza better than when he does a couple of loads of dishes. (The second half was literal). Yep: dishes.

I will grant your Italian truths but I will give you some Polish advice.
Help her out - and this is the key part - without expecting sex in return; that is help her out unconditionally (especially the dishes) and you won’t be needing a stove to be boiling any water.

Thanks. But now that we do not have a reason to practice NFP we don’t even have a fridge for the Pizza.

The post was not about what we could do you warm her up but rather what I have seen in my years of NFP counseling.

Every couple is different and for some, NFP can be the best of the Pizzas but for a lot of people, NFP is something that is not trusted, many women cannot be warmed up if they are worried about becoming pregnant. Many men, get frustrated with the “sex police”
This was our problem but it was many people’s problems we had in our classes.

Ultimately we left teaching NFP because we felt that C2CL and many NFP attitudes in general did not paint an accurate picture of what NFP was and what it should be used for.

The good thing about NFP is when it becomes like that, perhaps it is God telling you that another child may be something to think about. That is the big advantage over ABC couples. Once the decision is made it is hard to revisit. With NFP, you revisit it every time! However, with regards to the OP. Going into a marriage intending to employ NFP as a Catholic approved BC will not be a good thing. It is harder and requires more sacrifice than unrolling a Trojan.

This is the real point.

The couples we had that had medical or other issues that made NFP necessary almost never had the troubles others had. It is true. The guys who knew that if their wife got pregnant it could kill her were never the ones complaining about the sex police. The women who knew that another child might be the difference between keeping and losing a house almost never forgot to chart or follow the “conservative rules”
But the vast majority of NFP couples we taught were not in those categories. And they were not the ones who enjoyed NFP.

While every woman is different, and every couple is different, there is a distinct biological link between fertile time and a woman being able to enjoy sex more. That is simple biology. Any farmer can tell you that!

 

[mommamaree]

NFP is very effective, even as effective as some methods of contraception, such as the Pill. But it works by showing you which times the wife is fertile and conception is likely, so that you can make an informed decision about whether or not to engage in sexual relations. It works with a woman’s natural cycle to plan a pregnancy.

I have a history of using contraception before I converted (I was not a practicing Christian, either, before I converted), then since conversion, I have used NFP at times, and I have also used nothing at all and just enjoyed relations without planning or charting. By far, the best and most joyful has been the times when we used no methods to prevent pregnancy at all. Contraception was HORRIBLE, and my dissatisfaction with what contraception was doing to my marriage is what led me to research NFP and the Catholic Church (and I ultimately converted within a couple of months with help from my pastor). NFP was less damaging, and even did a lot of good for my marriage, but I still disliked it. My husband felt less antipathy about NFP (he had also converted with me) than I felt, but he saw no reason to use it if I didn’t want to.
So we use no methods at all and just let God plan our family, and we only decide about marital relations depending on how tired we might be on a particular night, or if circumstances that month might be adverse.
We are so much happier now.
So to sum up:
Contraception BAD
NFP Good, but not great, considering the particular needs and history of our marriage
No method at all BEST

And no, I am not pregnant all the time. My children are spaced between 2-3 years apart. I tend to get pregnant quickly, within several months of abandoning the method, but between pregnancy and lactational ammenhorea, it is usually about 18 months of no fertility at all.

And I LOVE my life! I enjoy my kids. I stay home right now and for the foreseeable future, to be able to raise and teach my kids. It was an easy sacrifice to trade in any career for this family of mine. My husband, who has a successful career, can vouch for the fact that a career is not really as “fulfilling” as we are led to believe in college. It is work, and it provides money, whereby we can provide for our families. He gets satisfaction from doing a good job, but his true fulfillment is from being a good provider and a spectacular husband and father and practicing his Catholic faith. So a career is not as important for our happiness as colleges would like us to believe. Honest work is important insofar as it allows us to do what we love, and to spend time with those we love.
Someday, when our kids no longer need me at home, I will likely work in some way, or get into volunteering to serve the parish and community, because being useful and busy is a joy for the soul. But I care little for developing a career later in life. My greatest work, since I am called to the vocation of marriage, is to raise up children for the Lord and get them and my husband to heaven! Everything else pales in comparison.
So family planning looks a lot different on this side of the “I do” especially with a marriage founded on our Faith and rooted in the teachings of the Church.

I wish for all the best for you as you discern in this matter.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

NFP is very effective, even as effective as some methods of contraception, such as the Pill. But it works by showing you which times the wife is fertile and conception is likely, so that you can make an informed decision about whether or not to engage in sexual relations. It works with a woman’s natural cycle to plan a pregnancy.

I have a history of using contraception before I converted (I was not a practicing Christian, either, before I converted), then since conversion, I have used NFP at times, and I have also used nothing at all and just enjoyed relations without planning or charting. By far, the best and most joyful has been the times when we used no methods to prevent pregnancy at all. Contraception was HORRIBLE, and my dissatisfaction with what contraception was doing to my marriage is what led me to research NFP and the Catholic Church (and I ultimately converted within a couple of months with help from my pastor). NFP was less damaging, and even did a lot of good for my marriage, but I still disliked it. My husband felt less antipathy about NFP (he had also converted with me) than I felt, but he saw no reason to use it if I didn’t want to.
So we use no methods at all and just let God plan our family, and we only decide about marital relations depending on how tired we might be on a particular night, or if circumstances that month might be adverse.
We are so much happier now.
So to sum up:
Contraception BAD
NFP Good, but not great, considering the particular needs and history of our marriage
No method at all BEST

And no, I am not pregnant all the time. My children are spaced between 2-3 years apart. I tend to get pregnant quickly, within several months of abandoning the method, but between pregnancy and lactational ammenhorea, it is usually about 18 months of no fertility at all.

And I LOVE my life! I enjoy my kids. I stay home right now and for the foreseeable future, to be able to raise and teach my kids. It was an easy sacrifice to trade in any career for this family of mine. My husband, who has a successful career, can vouch for the fact that a career is not really as “fulfilling” as we are led to believe in college. It is work, and it provides money, whereby we can provide for our families. He gets satisfaction from doing a good job, but his true fulfillment is from being a good provider and a spectacular husband and father and practicing his Catholic faith. So a career is not as important for our happiness as colleges would like us to believe. Honest work is important insofar as it allows us to do what we love, and to spend time with those we love.
Someday, when our kids no longer need me at home, I will likely work in some way, or get into volunteering to serve the parish and community, because being useful and busy is a joy for the soul. But I care little for developing a career later in life. My greatest work, since I am called to the vocation of marriage, is to raise up children for the Lord and get them and my husband to heaven! Everything else pales in comparison.
So family planning looks a lot different on this side of the “I do” especially with a marriage founded on our Faith and rooted in the teachings of the Church.

I wish for all the best for you as you discern in this matter.

Very very similar to our experience as well!

 

[maryjk]

This is the real point.

The couples we had that had medical or other issues that made NFP necessary almost never had the troubles others had. It is true. The guys who knew that if their wife got pregnant it could kill her were never the ones complaining about the sex police. The women who knew that another child might be the difference between keeping and losing a house almost never forgot to chart or follow the “conservative rules”
But the vast majority of NFP couples we taught were not in those categories. And they were not the ones who enjoyed NFP.

While every woman is different, and every couple is different, there is a distinct biological link between fertile time and a woman being able to enjoy sex more. That is simple biology. Any farmer can tell you that!

I have to agree.

I read a lot about men getting tired of the “sex police.” And I would have thought that my husband would agree with them.

But he hasn’t. But with my medical problems? I guess I am not surprised.

Sex is not as important as my life. So when I see fertile signs, I need no more than to tell my husband about it. He doesn’t push it. At all.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I have to agree.

I read a lot about men getting tired of the “sex police.” And I would have thought that my husband would agree with them.

But he hasn’t. But with my medical problems? I guess I am not surprised.

Sex is not as important as my life. So when I see fertile signs, I need no more than to tell my husband about it. He doesn’t push it. At all.

And it is in situations like you describe that God blessed us with NFP. The lie of ABC was seducing people like yourself, but in His wisdom God allowed the Church to advance in a much more natural and effective way than the pharmaceutical world.

 

[TCEL]

What may be getting lost in the weeds on this is that NFP is really only meant to be used for “serious reasons” in the first place? (Not my intention to start a discussion on what “serious reasons” constitute, because I’m sure that turns into a minefield.) Which means, the ideal really is not having to worry about any of it? Is it fair to say that? I still advocate learning how to use it though, from a health perspective. It’s terrific for gynecological health. Anyway, hopefully this at least shows the OP why it’s important to further look into this.

 

[InspiritCarol]

… Any farmer can tell you that!

:tiphat: Boy, and they do!

Man, would that the farmers around here would find a little decorum about that stuff.

My advice still stands though.

 

[InspiritCarol]

What may be getting lost in the weeds on this is that NFP is really only meant to be used for “serious reasons” in the first place? (Not my intention to start a discussion on what “serious reasons” constitute, because I’m sure that turns into a minefield.) Which means, the ideal really is not having to worry about any of it? Is it fair to say that? I still advocate learning how to use it though, from a health perspective. It’s terrific for gynecological health. Anyway, hopefully this at least shows the OP why it’s important to further look into this.

Good point. I did not make clear that I have severe medical issues.
-advanced age
-miscarriages (ectopic, partial molar, etc)
-a bunch of physical stuff I don’t want to get into…