Issues with "the Rapture"

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Lev23 said:
Though Genesis and Revelation are two different books, are you saying that when Genesis states how people lived over a 100 years, it really meant they lived for a long time?

Besides, Revelation uses words to express large numbers of anything, see Revelation 9:16. Again, people in the scriptures lived over a hundred years, so to say a 1000 years means eternity does not make sense. There are other idioms used in the scriptures to explain large amounts of anything, like Jacobs descendants being counted as the sands in the sea. Christ reign is eternal, but his reign on this earth will be for a 1000 years. People in Israel at the time of Jesus understood the literal aspect of the Kingdom reign in Israel as foretold by the scriptures, Revelation reveals it will last for a thousand years.

I see where you are coming from, but you got to remember Israels place in prophecy during the last times.

You just mentioned why "perswonal interpretation of the Scrriptures is frowned upon ", but then give me 2 possible interpretations. 🤷

A 1000 year reign from Jesus Christ in Israel cannot be disproven from the sciptures either.
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What makes you think ANYTHING in Revelations is anything other than figurative speech? Everyhting in Revelation represresents something else.
 
SHW said:
The New Jerusalem is the “perfected” Church. The Church is here now, but its members (we) have not been perfected yet. We will be perfect when we enter heaven, however. After the judgment, the Church will shine in eternal splendor.

Revelation 21:1-3 “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.”

Revelation 21:9-13 “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.”

Jesus, the Lamb, is the bridegroom. Who is the Lamb’s wife; who is His bride?

She, the bride, His wife, is His Church.

Mark 2:18-20 “The disciples of John and of the Pharisees were fasting. Then they came and said to Him, “Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?” 19 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them they cannot fast. 20 But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days.”

Ephesians 5:23 “For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.”

We live in New Covenant times. Jesus never returns to the Old Covenant. The remnant Israelites will join His Church during the time of Antichrist after the two witnesses “show” them that Jesus is the Messiah.

Animal sacrifices would greatly displease God.
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CWBetts said:
What makes you think ANYTHING in Revelations is anything other than figurative speech? Everyhting in Revelation represresents something else.
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So when Revelation mentions “church”, it means something else? When it mentions tribes of Israel, it means something else? etc.,etc.,etc…

Sorry, I’m not understanding where you are coming from.
 
Lev23 said:
So when Revelation mentions “church”, it means something else? When it mentions tribes of Israel, it means something else? etc.,etc.,etc…

Sorry, I’m not understanding where you are coming from.
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The seven churches in the first chapter represent the states of seven types of believers, so yeas the “CHurch in Smyrna” (as an exmple) does not literally mean that specific church. Everything in Revelation is meant as a symbol. Including the 1000 years. This is the problem with the literalist view of Scriptures, Idiom amd metaphor get ignored.
 
Lev23 said:
So when Revelation mentions “church”, it means something else? When it mentions tribes of Israel, it means something else? etc.,etc.,etc…

Sorry, I’m not understanding where you are coming from.
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I find that CW Betts statement about the Book of Revelation is anything but real is an embarrassment to us fellow Catholics. Is Jesus statement that he stand and knocks on your door real. As a fellow Catholic I would ask you to read the Book of Revelation and get a study guide. Fellow Catholic Scott Hahn would be good to consult. As things occur you will see that Revelations is very real.
 
a_burger said:
I find that CW Betts statement about the Book of Revelation is anything but real is an embarrassment to us fellow Catholics. Is Jesus statement that he stand and knocks on your door real. As a fellow Catholic I would ask you to read the Book of Revelation and get a study guide. Fellow Catholic Scott Hahn would be good to consult. As things occur you will see that Revelations is very real.
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I never said they weren’t real. I sead that Revealtion is litreraary and is full of metaphor and idiom. Stop putting words into my mouth
 
Lev23 said:
I dont understand your “going back to the old covenant” remark.
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God will never accept animal sacrifices from the Old Covenant whether given to Him by Jews or others. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and He is the only acceptable sacrifice. The Old Covenant has been made obsolete. It has been fulfilled by Jesus. It is no longer in force. [Hebrews 8:13]

Satan’s power has been restricted or chained for the “1000 year” time period during the “times of the Gentiles.” [Luke 21:24] This is what is meant by “Satan bound/chained for a thousand years” while Jesus is reigning at the right hand of His Father in heaven along with His saints and martyrs. [Revelation 20:1-4]

We are nearing the time that Satan will be permitted to use his full power against Christians and Jews during the “time of Antichrist.”

The “thousand years” is not literal. It means a “long” time. [2 Peter 3:8]
 
CWBetts said:
The seven churches in the first chapter represent the states of seven types of believers, so yeas the “CHurch in Smyrna” (as an exmple) does not literally mean that specific church. Everything in Revelation is meant as a symbol. Including the 1000 years. This is the problem with the literalist view of Scriptures, Idiom amd metaphor get ignored.
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The letters to the seven churches were actually literally sent in a “book” to these specific churches as commanded by God. [Revelation 1:1-3 ] However, they do represent “types” of “Christians” throughout the ages so they are relevant for our time period. [Revelation 1:11]
 
Pardon me for quoting you.You should think before you write. Look in the mirror.
 
Enough with the insults. I am about 2 seconds form leaving the forums alltogether because of posters like you.
 
Lev23 said:
Christ reign is eternal, but his reign on this earth will be for a 1000 years. People in Israel at the time of Jesus understood the literal aspect of the Kingdom reign in Israel as foretold by the scriptures, Revelation reveals it will last for a thousand years.

A 1000 year reign from Jesus Christ in Israel cannot be disproven from the sciptures either.
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I apologize for the long post but this is scipture that dispoves Jesus’ 1,000 year earthly reign in Israel. The early Jewish apocalyptic tradition was a veiled understanding. The only way a literal 1,000 year earthly reign can be interpreted is if Rev 20 is read in isolation from the rest of scripture. Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done.

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. (Mat 16:27)

Jesus is referring to the final judgment when He will separate the sheep from the goats.

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. (Mat 25:31-33)

There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment. The millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. The saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. The 1,000 years have been occuring since Christ’s resurrection and ascension.

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene. (2 Thes 2:6-7)

Notice the order of things. Christ’s reigns now in verse 25 (Dealing with enemies is what reigning entails). He comes in verse 23 and the end comes in verse 24.

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1 Cor 15:22-25)

When Christ returns there will be no politics. Time will end and it will give way to eternity.

Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. (Rev 20:11)

This is the day of the Lord or “that day” mentioned so many times by the prophets.

The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out. (2 Pet 3:7-10)

This will be immediately followed by this:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them (as their God). (Rev 21:1-3)

Peace 🙂
 
Ryanoneil:

Thanks for the well thought out and researched answer. I agree with it. Thanks.

byrdele
 
I have always felt that God does not waste words. When He speaks to us through the Bible, His words take on all possibilities. The prophecies, for example can be fulfilled BOTH literally and figuratively. He is the One Who can write straight with crooked lines or [if I may say] crooked with straight lines. What I am trying to explain is that one Prophecy can be fulfilled in more than one way over more than one time. Nothing is impossible to God. The possibilities are multiple. With respect I would say that those who believe only in the literal interpretation are as those who believe only in the figurative interpretation - both are partially correct. In any case, lets remmemmber Charity and that we must use these resources for our salvation and the salvation of others. No matter who is “right”, the end is coming and we must be prepared. Perhaps our own end will be tomorrow, which makes all our speculations of the future moot, since we will be on the other side and no longer of this earth.
 
Dear Orthodox,

You hit the nail on the head. The ‘end times’ for any of us could come in a matter of minutes. We just live each day as though it’s our last - being like the wise maidens who already had filled their lamps with oil while waiting for the Bridegroom.
 
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