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Sirach14
Guest
And it’s not working
realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_25_06_WB.html
realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_25_06_WB.html
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gilliam
Guest
William Buckley never supported the liberation of Iraq. I think I will wait for calmer heads to declair defeat thank you.
It is working by the way. It is slow and painful, but it took us years to form a republic that actually worked as well.
See:
Iraq’s Sunnis and Sadr’s movement make peace
Also note:
THESE are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
– Thomas Paine, “The Crisis”, 1776
It is working by the way. It is slow and painful, but it took us years to form a republic that actually worked as well.
See:
Iraq’s Sunnis and Sadr’s movement make peace
Also note:
THESE are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
– Thomas Paine, “The Crisis”, 1776
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gnjsdad
Guest
Are you saying that with a straight face?
Here’s a couple of headlines just from today…
50 Killed In Iraq Today Despite Daytime Curfew
Bush Pleads For Unity In Iraq
Yup, sounds like democracy has a firm grasp over there, alright.
Are you seriously saying it took us years to form a republic that works as well as what’s now in Iraq? That we didn’t do as well as they are now? As if there is any comparison…
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Hildebrand
Guest
We were the instigators of our revolution. We had a revolutionary government and a revolutionary army.
The French did not invade the colonies in 1775 in order to liberate us. They intervened later on… once they knew that joining the war was worthwhile.
It took us about 8 years to fight for our independence and freedom.
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gilliam
Guest
And the Iraqis are fighting and dying for their freedom today. Don’t deny them that!
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gilliam
Guest
I am saying it took us years to form a republic, and it will take Iraq years to form a good, functioning republic.
I am also seeing a lot of hopeful signs in today’s news:
Sunnis and Sadr’s Shiites make peace
"People of Samarah started local campaign to clean up ruble and start rebuilding the bombed Shrine, while other residence joined a demonstration calling for national unity. The crowd chanted ‘Not Sunni Not Shiite…one one national unity.’
“Iraqis form local Shiite committees to protect Sunni Mosques in Basra and the south.”
“Large (peaceful) demonstrations broke out again today in Basra, protesting the heinous attacks on a Shiite shrine in Samarah. Over 100,000 protesters participated chanting condemnations against the attacks and calling for self-restraint and following religious instructions (from leading religious references) for calm. Sheik Abdul Husein Almuhamdawi (a religious leader in the province) said; ‘Local national Shiite committees have been formed to protect local Sunni mosques from over zealous individuals.’ A source in the local Basra police leadership mentioned that ‘Talha’ mosque and two other mosques in southern Basrah were subject to light gunfire but no one was injured.”
powerlineblog.com/archives/013235.php
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gnjsdad
Guest
It took us years to form the republic laid out in the US Constitution despite a nearly 200 year history of democratic experience, from the early 1600s to 1791.
If it took us years to do with our long history of democratic experience, how long would it take for a country like Iraq, with absolutely no experience with democracy? I’d say we’re loooking at decades, assuming of course, the Iraqis even begin to develop a true democratic culture, of which there is no evidence so far.
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RPConover
Guest
Well, at least we got rid of all those weapons of mass destruction, right? Oh that’s right, they flew off to Syria or some place… possibly on the back of a unicorn? Maybe if we follow the trail of pixie dust we’ll find them… 
Seriously though, I didn’t believe from the beginning that Iraq had WMD’s, so I opposed the invasion for that reason, but that WAS the rationale for the war. I mean it’s not like Iraqis were ready to fight for their freedom when we got there or anything, like they were on the verge of revolution and just asked for our aid like we did with France… we just kind of came in and went “boom, boom, blast” … ok, now you guys are going to take care of this with us, right? Not to seem insensitive, but coups still happen today in countries around the world… if the rationale had been “let’s go liberate those poor Iraqis!” I’d have opposed the invasion even more, we did it ourselves, if they want it that badly, they can do it too, maybe aid them if they even bothered to revolt, but not do it all for them! Maybe someday they will be just one more muslim democracy, like the hundreds of others, right? 
Seriously though, I didn’t believe from the beginning that Iraq had WMD’s, so I opposed the invasion for that reason, but that WAS the rationale for the war. I mean it’s not like Iraqis were ready to fight for their freedom when we got there or anything, like they were on the verge of revolution and just asked for our aid like we did with France… we just kind of came in and went “boom, boom, blast” … ok, now you guys are going to take care of this with us, right? Not to seem insensitive, but coups still happen today in countries around the world… if the rationale had been “let’s go liberate those poor Iraqis!” I’d have opposed the invasion even more, we did it ourselves, if they want it that badly, they can do it too, maybe aid them if they even bothered to revolt, but not do it all for them! Maybe someday they will be just one more muslim democracy, like the hundreds of others, right?
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gilliam
Guest
It will take years for Iraq. We were not so perfect at the beginning either. Remember we had Articles of Confederation and a completely different government structure that did not work at all and had to scrap it and start over with the Constitution. Even with the Constitution, it wasn’t until after the Civil War that we had a functioning government similar to the one we have now. And the women didn’t get the right to vote until the 1920s.
In some ways, Iraq is ahead of the game, and they have Sunni Arabs and Iran meddling with their internal politics from outside the country. Not to mention blowing up their civilians.
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gilliam
Guest
Here are some information,which, for whatever reason, you don’t get in your news about the bombing:
The first reaction to the bombing which “targeted a Shiite” shrine came from the Sunni residents of Samarra. The first demonstration to condemn the attack was held spontaneously by Sunnis in the area where the shrine is. Almost all Sunni leaders went on TV to condemn the attack and show solidarity and unity with the Shiites. Here are some of what the Sunni leaders said on TVs all day yesterday [that’s what I could get]
The first reaction to the bombing which “targeted a Shiite” shrine came from the Sunni residents of Samarra. The first demonstration to condemn the attack was held spontaneously by Sunnis in the area where the shrine is. Almost all Sunni leaders went on TV to condemn the attack and show solidarity and unity with the Shiites. Here are some of what the Sunni leaders said on TVs all day yesterday [that’s what I could get]
- Wafiq Samarraie, a Sunni politician from Samarra city and serves as Iraq’s president’s advisor for security issues. [from Arabiya satellite channel]
He said “Iamam Ali al-Hadi is not only for Shiites. The shrine is a symbol of all Iraqis and of Samara city in particular. I demand to dismiss the governor of the province and take all the legal procedures to prevent strife. There will be no strife in Iraq. Iraqis will not fight each other. Samarra city should be protected. The information is very clear. The government should have chased the terrorists in eastern Samarra and they are a few. The government and the governor should have done something this issue. I tell the tribes in Samarra, especially in eastern Samarra, that ‘ it is a shame to leave the strangers among you. You should inform the police force about them.’” - The Iraqi Islamic Party, IIP, one of the most powerful Sunni political and religious groups, issued a statement saying: “The size of the wicked conspiracy that is targeting the Iraqis, their sacred symbols, and unity, is clear now. After the series of attacking mosques and assassinations of clergies, people of Samarra woke up today on the bombing of Imam Ali Al-Hadi dome. We, the Iraqi Islamic Party/ Samarra branch, denounce this criminal act and demand a wide investigation to reveal the controversies that raise many questions on who was behind this incident. The commandos have cordoned the holy shrine since last night and tide up its guards and put them in a room and the people of Samarra released them after the bombing. The commandos prevented shop owners from going to their shops in the morning and there was movement of the occupation forces in the city all night long. All these controversies and others need an honest and wide investigation to find the real criminals and not hide them no matter what the reason is. We in the Iraqi Islamic Party/ Samarra branch, urge our people to go in wide, peaceful demonstrations to condemn this crime. We also remind all Iraqis to protect their unity to prevent the chance for suspicious conspiracies, which target all Iraqis with no exception. IIP/ Samarra branch”
- Iraq’s Kurdish president, Jalal Talbani, net with tribal leaders and prominent figures from Salahudin province, where Samarra city is, and talked about the incident. [from Iraqiya satellite channel]
He said “This is a crime against Iraq as a whole, not against Shiites only. It aims to provoke a sectarian strife and a civil war among us. I hope the Sunni clergies would condemn this crime. We all are facing a conspiracy against Iraq and its entity. Therefore we should all unite to prevent the danger of civil war.”
There is a lot more here:
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gilliam
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Iraqi clergymen, Shiites and Sunnis, have met in a mosque in Baghdad and decided to contribute to ending the crisis that followed bombing one of Islam’s holiest sites, the shrine of Imam Ali al-Hadi and hasan al-Askari in the city of Samarra north of Baghdad.
What was amazing about it is the unity they showed on TV. Above is a picture of clergymen. The one leading the prayers and circled by a black line is sheikh Abdul Salam al-Kubaisi, spokesman and main preacher in the Association of Muslim Scholars, which is the supreme Sunni religious authority in Iraq. In the picture, Kubaisi is shown leading the prayers and all the clergies behind him are Shiites from Sadr trend. This is the first time I see this. I’ve never seen a Sunni clergyman leading Shiite prayers. You could see the main difference between Sunni and Shiite Islam. Notice the way the Sunni stands [joining hands on the abdomen] and the Shiites standing with hands loose on the sides.
This is a huge encouragement to Iraqis and a huge defeat also for those who predicted a wide civil war in Iraq. Civil war started for real three days ago, but I don’t think there will be anymore. Not if Iraqis saw the picture above. Lets just hope that Iraqis had electricity to power TVs at homes and see what is happening!
[Note: The event was shown on Jazeera satellite channel. So I took a picture from the TV !!]twentyfourstepstoliberty.blogspot.com/
Iraqi clergymen, Shiites and Sunnis, have met in a mosque in Baghdad and decided to contribute to ending the crisis that followed bombing one of Islam’s holiest sites, the shrine of Imam Ali al-Hadi and hasan al-Askari in the city of Samarra north of Baghdad.
What was amazing about it is the unity they showed on TV. Above is a picture of clergymen. The one leading the prayers and circled by a black line is sheikh Abdul Salam al-Kubaisi, spokesman and main preacher in the Association of Muslim Scholars, which is the supreme Sunni religious authority in Iraq. In the picture, Kubaisi is shown leading the prayers and all the clergies behind him are Shiites from Sadr trend. This is the first time I see this. I’ve never seen a Sunni clergyman leading Shiite prayers. You could see the main difference between Sunni and Shiite Islam. Notice the way the Sunni stands [joining hands on the abdomen] and the Shiites standing with hands loose on the sides.
This is a huge encouragement to Iraqis and a huge defeat also for those who predicted a wide civil war in Iraq. Civil war started for real three days ago, but I don’t think there will be anymore. Not if Iraqis saw the picture above. Lets just hope that Iraqis had electricity to power TVs at homes and see what is happening!
[Note: The event was shown on Jazeera satellite channel. So I took a picture from the TV !!]twentyfourstepstoliberty.blogspot.com/
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