It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[sedonaman]

Yes, all truth, not just one issue! I’m not sure you can have a conscience of convenience?

Where did this idea come from that you shouldn’t vote one issue? Is there an Eleventh Commandment that says, “Thou shalt not be a single-issue voter”? Did they pass a Constitutional Amendment barring single-issue voting? Single-issue voting is not new, nor is it un-American. I’d bet most voters were single-issue voters in the election of 1860. It would appear that today single-issue voting is criticized only when the single-issue advocate is pro-life and not pro-abortion.

I have also noticed that those condemning others for being single-issue voters are generally the same who complain that the Church shouldn’t tell people how to vote.

 

[sedonaman]

Very easily countered by asking what’s the point in being alive if you have no quality of life.

You are a Christian asking this question?

 

[Doc_Keele]

You are a Christian asking this question?

Yes. And?

 

[CPA2]

No, my moral obligation is far wide than opposing abortion. I certainly don’t let YOU set my moral agenda.

The direct killing of innocent babies is always a grave injustice. We should not permit unjust killing any more than we should permit other injustices, such as slavery. Recognizing that abortion is an injustice requires us to work to overcome that injustice. Catholics have a grave moral obligation to defend all human life from conception to natural death.

 

[Rence]

Nope - happens to be pro-choice? - your pastor did not go far enough. It is a sin to knowingly vote a pro-choice candidate in if there is a pro-life candidate running. You must have proportionate reasons to vote for him, that is the other candidate must be worse when it comes to protecting the sanctity of human life. (the lesser of two evils, if you will)

Are you an American Catholic or a Catholic American?

My pastor is not pro-choice, he is anti-abortion. My pastor said it was not a sin to vote for your preferred candidate regardless of who else is running with that candidate, provided you are not voting with the intention of voting specifically for a pro-choice candidate. He explained that if you believe the candidate you choose is best for the country, and that candidate is pro-choice, you are not sinning by voting for him, and I not only believe his counsel is correct, I agree with it. The Church should not be telling citizens of a country how to vote. Give to Caesar what’s Caesar’s, give to God what’s God’s. When voting there are many considerations besides abortion, and they’re all important issues. And frankly, they are more important than abortions to me. People are going to have abortions, whether or not I agree with them. And they’re going to continue having them regardless of the President’s preferences. Therefore, why ignore all the important issues for this one issue that’s not going to matter one bit? This country has way too many non-Catholics in it to attempt to base laws on Catholic beliefs. We have a responsibilty to all here, not just the unborn.

I’m not sure what you’re asking in your second part. I am American, and I was born and raised Catholic. I went to a Catholic parochial school as a child, I went to a Catholic grammar school, a Catholic high school, a Catholic college and a Catholic university. However, I do realize that some traditional and conservative catholics think the unborn are the most important consideration. I, on the other hand, regard the living as important too, and that’s how I vote and with all due respect, it’s not likely to change just because someone on an online forum claims I have no right to vote with my conscience and common sense. Encyclicals are to be considered with an open mind and an open conscience, but they are not infallible statements that absolutely must be followed. And after sharing my beliefs regarding voting with my pastor, I’m more than convinced that you can safely vote for the candidate of your choice.

 

[buffalo]

My pastor is not pro-choice, he is anti-abortion. My pastor said it was not a sin to vote for your preferred candidate regardless of who else is running with that candidate, provided you are not voting with the intention of voting specifically for a pro-choice candidate. He explained that if you believe the candidate you choose is best for the country, and that candidate is pro-choice, you are not sinning by voting for him, and I not only believe his counsel is correct, I agree with it. The Church should not be telling citizens of a country how to vote. Give to Caesar what’s Caesar’s, give to God what’s God’s. When voting there are many considerations besides abortion, and they’re all important issues. And frankly, they are more important than abortions to me. People are going to have abortions, whether or not I agree with them. And they’re going to continue having them regardless of the President’s preferences. Therefore, why ignore all the important issues for this one issue that’s not going to matter one bit? This country has way too many non-Catholics in it to attempt to base laws on Catholic beliefs. We have a responsibilty to all here, not just the unborn.

I’m not sure what you’re asking in your second part. I am American, and I was born and raised Catholic. I went to a Catholic parochial school as a child, I went to a Catholic grammar school, a Catholic high school, a Catholic college and a Catholic university. However, I do realize that some traditional and conservative catholics think the unborn are the most important consideration. I, on the other hand, regard the living as important too, and that’s how I vote and with all due respect, it’s not likely to change just because someone on an online forum claims I have no right to vote with my conscience and common sense. Encyclicals are to be considered with an open mind and an open conscience, but they are not infallible statements that absolutely must be followed. And after sharing my beliefs regarding voting with my pastor, I’m more than convinced that you can safely vote for the candidate of your choice.

Oooooh - I think you should really think about this issue. Other issues do not rise to murder of the unborn, the most innocent, who by the way are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This injustice has to be fixed because it is so foundational to what this country stands for. This simply amazes me.

Who is denying the unborn these rights?

An additional point - originally they were called abortionists and pro-abortionists. Because the American public so detested this they came up with pro-choice, designed to hoodwink the public. Darned good job I would say. I call it what it is - pro-death. You are pro-death. No other way to spin it.

 

[estesbob]

My pastor is not pro-choice, he is anti-abortion. My pastor said it was not a sin to vote for your preferred candidate regardless of who else is running with that candidate, provided you are not voting with the intention of voting specifically for a pro-choice candidate. He explained that if you believe the candidate you choose is best for the country, and that candidate is pro-choice, you are not sinning by voting for him, and I not only believe his counsel is correct, I agree with it. The Church should not be telling citizens of a country how to vote. Give to Caesar what’s Caesar’s, give to God what’s God’s. When voting there are many considerations besides abortion, and they’re all important issues. And frankly, they are more important than abortions to me. People are going to have abortions, whether or not I agree with them. And they’re going to continue having them regardless of the President’s preferences. Therefore, why ignore all the important issues for this one issue that’s not going to matter one bit? This country has way too many non-Catholics in it to attempt to base laws on Catholic beliefs. We have a responsibilty to all here, not just the unborn.

I’m not sure what you’re asking in your second part. I am American, and I was born and raised Catholic. I went to a Catholic parochial school as a child, I went to a Catholic grammar school, a Catholic high school, a Catholic college and a Catholic university. However, I do realize that some traditional and conservative catholics think the unborn are the most important consideration. I, on the other hand, regard the living as important too, and that’s how I vote and with all due respect, it’s not likely to change just because someone on an online forum claims I have no right to vote with my conscience and common sense. Encyclicals are to be considered with an open mind and an open conscience, but they are not infallible statements that absolutely must be followed. And after sharing my beliefs regarding voting with my pastor, I’m more than convinced that you can safely vote for the candidate of your choice.

So are you implying that those of us who will not vote for a pro-abortion canidate dont care about the living? That sounds like you are parotting of the usual pro-abortion talking points. Can you desrcibe what issues you think trump the slaughter of 1.5 million children a year? Can you point us to the Church teaching that backs up your opinion?

Perhaps you can tell us the error of what Archbishop Chaput said prior to the last election:

Speaking for myself, I do not know any proportionate reason that could outweigh more than 40 million unborn children killed by abortion and the many millions of women deeply wounded by the loss and regret abortion creates.

 

[Rence]

Oooooh - I think you should really think about this issue. Other issues do not rise to murder of the unborn, the most innocent, who by the way are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This injustice has to be fixed because it is so foundational to what this country stands for. This simply amazes me.

**The best, and probably the only, way to “fix” the abortion problem only begins by 1) putting a stop the abuse of women, so that they are not backed into a corner thinking that it’s their only option. 2)lead them to resources that will give them shelter free of fear of abuse, 3) educate women about their options such as public aid to help pay for their prenatal care and pregnancies 4) educate women about charitable organizations that will help them when they need it and not run in the opposite direction after her baby is born 5) educate women (and men) about NFP and 6) bringing moral values back into the family so that women have self respect and live by a higher moral standard. With all due respect, making abortion illegal isn’t going to resolve the problem. It will just make “back-alley” butchers more money and bring physical harm to women. With today’s culture, there is no way that wouldn’t happen. It may have happened prior to Roe vs Wade, but that’s not how it turned out. Abortion is way too available for it to be successfully pulled like a carpet. It’ll just move underground. The best way to stop abortions is to make women not want to have them, and give them the ability to make a sound choice. **

Who is denying the unborn these rights?

An additional point - originally they were called abortionists and pro-abortionists. Because the American public so detested this they came up with pro-choice, designed to hoodwink the public. Darned good job I would say. I call it what it is - pro-death. You are pro-death. No other way to spin it.

**Well I’m sorry you feel that way. But calling me names and labeling me things I am not is not going to win points for “your side” of the fence. We can argue until the moon turns purple. The fact is, we are both pro-life, we are just going about it differently. **

 

[sedonaman]

Yes. And?

And what?

 

[buffalo]

**he best, and probably the only, way to “fix” the abortion problem only begins by 1) putting a stop the abuse of women, so that they are not backed into a corner thinking that it’s their only option. 2)lead them to resources that will give them shelter free of fear of abuse, 3) educate women about their options such as public aid to help pay for their prenatal care and pregnancies 4) educate women about charitable organizations that will help them when they need it and not run in the opposite direction after her baby is born 5) educate women (and men) about NFP and 6) bringing moral values back into the family so that women have self respect and live by a higher moral standard. With all due respect, making abortion illegal isn’t going to resolve the problem. It will just make “back-alley” butchers more money and bring physical harm to women. With today’s culture, there is no way that wouldn’t happen. It may have happened prior to Roe vs Wade, but that’s not how it turned out. Abortion is way too available for it to be successfully pulled like a carpet. It’ll just move underground. The best way to stop abortions is to make women not want to have them, and give them the ability to make a sound choice. **

You think this is the way? - how about putting a stop to the war planned parenthood wages on blacks in America.

**Well I’m sorry you feel that way. But calling me names and labeling me things I am not is not going to win points for “your side” of the fence. We can argue until the moon turns purple. The fact is, we are both pro-life, we are just going about it differently. **

I prioritize life, you rank other things equal or above. It is a difference of degrees.

How are you going about changing it?

Back alley butchers? You are aware these statistics were fabricated by Dr Bernard Nathanson to get abortion legal. He is since come clean. You should check it out.

 

[Rence]

So are you implying that those of us who will not vote for a pro-abortion canidate dont care about the living? That sounds like you are parotting of the usual pro-abortion talking points. Can you desrcibe what issues you think trump the slaughter of 1.5 million children a year? Can you point us to the Church teaching that backs up your opinion?

Perhaps you can tell us the error of what Archbishop Chaput said prior to the last election:

Speaking for myself, I do not know any proportionate reason that could outweigh more than 40 million unborn children killed by abortion and the many millions of women deeply wounded by the loss and regret abortion creates.

I’m not implying anything about voting or not voting for pro-choice candidate. Why would I? It’s your choice to vote for the candidate that best reflects who you believe is the best candidate. You have to vote with YOUR conscience. If abortion is the only issue you want to vote regarding, then do so. What I have issue with is others telling other people how to vote. It’s just plain old coersion: either vote this way, or you’re not a good catholic, or you’re guilty of grave serious most unholy sin, yadda yadda. That’s not true: one can be a good catholic (or even pro-life) and still vote looking at the whole picture.

The Church doesn’t have to back up all of our opinions. We are not drones of the Church. We should always take into consideration with an open mind, clear conscience and open heart, what the Church teaches, but we have to use our own gift of reasoning as well.

There is no error in what the Archbishop said about what he felt was important. We all have to consider what is important to us, otherwise, what’s the point?

I can only speak for myself too as to what’s important. For me, healthcare issues, education issues, war issues and financial issues that will affect civilians are more important. And of course, I weigh out all the issues with each candidate. I try to look at the whole picture. I’m not always happy after the election is over, sometimes I don’t like either candidate. But the choice is mine after considering information presented by each party.

 

[buffalo]

We should always take into consideration with an open mind, clear conscience and open heart, what the Church teaches, but we have to use our own gift of reasoning as well.

T.

Gift of reasoning? Where did you get it from? Shouldn’t it align with your Creator?

 

[Rence]

**he best, and probably the only, way to “fix” the abortion problem only begins by 1) putting a stop the abuse of women, so that they are not backed into a corner thinking that it’s their only option. 2)lead them to resources that will give them shelter free of fear of abuse, 3) educate women about their options such as public aid to help pay for their prenatal care and pregnancies 4) educate women about charitable organizations that will help them when they need it and not run in the opposite direction after her baby is born 5) educate women (and men) about NFP and 6) bringing moral values back into the family so that women have self respect and live by a higher moral standard. With all due respect, making abortion illegal isn’t going to resolve the problem. It will just make “back-alley” butchers more money and bring physical harm to women. With today’s culture, there is no way that wouldn’t happen. It may have happened prior to Roe vs Wade, but that’s not how it turned out. Abortion is way too available for it to be successfully pulled like a carpet. It’ll just move underground. The best way to stop abortions is to make women not want to have them, and give them the ability to make a sound choice. **

You think this is the way? - how about putting a stop to the war planned parenthood wages on blacks in America.

*Yes I do. Sorry you disagree. I’m sure we all have our way of dealing with problems and issues. If you really think making abortion illegal (or trying to) is going to resolve the problem, keep plugging away at it. *

**Well I’m sorry you feel that way. But calling me names and labeling me things I am not is not going to win points for “your side” of the fence. We can argue until the moon turns purple. The fact is, we are both pro-life, we are just going about it differently. **

I prioritize life, you rank other things equal or above. It is a difference of degrees.

How are you going about changing it?

*In order to prioritize, you have to rank things, otherwise there wouldn’t be a priority. You rank importance too, you just have a different list than I do. The way I would hope to change it is by making a woman aware of the resources available to her. *

Back alley butchers? You are aware these statistics were fabricated by Dr Bernard Nathanson to get abortion legal. He is since come clean. You should check it out.

It’s irrelevant. Even if the statistics were fabricated, there were still one too many women getting sick and/or dying from illegal abortions. I know too many women in real life, here, now and today, that would just have it done illegally. All you need is demand, and there will come supply. The only way to stop a woman from having an abortion is to make her not want to have one. Taking away her choices will do the opposite.

 

[buffalo]

The rule of law set the precedents for society and civilization. How can one call our nation civilized when we permit the killing of our unborn babies?

There will always be lawbreakers. The law sets the ideal and codifies it as a moral compass. It is a reflection of a nations values.

America does not value life. Nor do may American Catholics. Catholic Americans fight for life and prioritize it.

 

[estesbob]

Back alley butchers? You are aware these statistics were fabricated by Dr Bernard Nathanson to get abortion legal. He is since come clean. You should check it out.

Correct-prior to Roe 92% of illegal abortions were perfomred by a licenses physician in a sterile enviroment. The CDC estimates maternal deaths from illegal abortion were under 400 per year. OTH abortion increased from 400,000 a year to 1.5 million withing two years of Roe being imposed on the country.

I have yet to see anyone in this thread post any doscument from the Church to back up the assertion we can vote for pro-abortion canditates if he is “right” on other issues.

 

[estesbob]

I can only speak for myself too as to what’s important. For me, healthcare issues, education issues, war issues and financial issues that will affect civilians are more important. And of course, I weigh out all the issues with each candidate. I try to look at the whole picture. I’m not always happy after the election is over, sometimes I don’t like either candidate. But the choice is mine after considering information presented by each party.

Issues the Church specifically said do not rise to the level of abortion. how many of these issues you hold dear to your heart can be enjoyed by those who are denied the right to life.

Again i suggest you do some research to find out hat the Church really teaches rather than allow an ill informed Pastor and Party allegiance guide you.

Of course the choice is yours. I remember a parishioner approaching our Pastor(who was born and raises in Poland) after he gave a sermon condeming in no uncertain temrs supporting pro-abortion canidates. The parishioner said “you have to realize, Father, that in this country we have freedom of speech” He replied-Yes-you have freedom to send yourself to hell if that is your wish". Blunt but true.

 

[ishii]

Are you looking for a loophole?

I think now, looking back at the last few posts, its easy to see why this question was asked. So many Catholics seem to want nothing more than someone to validate and justify their vote for pro-death candidates. The last election couldn’t be more simple:

Candidate A (Obama): pro-death candidate

Candidate B (McCain): pro-life candidate

Because so many “pro-life” catholics voted for Obama, we now are looking at 2 new pro-death supreme court justices (first Sotomayer, then the successor to Stevens). We could have had two pro-life justices. But pro-Obama catholics prevailed. And the killing goes on. And on.

Ishii

 

[CPA2]

Sounds a great way to stop Catholic voting!
QUOTE]

Abortion is evil. No abortion can ever be justified. Circumstances do not alter that evil. Nothing can ever make abortion morally permissible. There is no government on earth that can lawfully justify even one abortion. Their laws permitting abortion are invalid. Every abortion contradicts the law of God.

 

[estesbob]

I think now, looking back at the last few posts, its easy to see why this question was asked. So many Catholics seem to want nothing more than someone to validate and justify their vote for pro-death candidates. The last election couldn’t be more simple:

Candidate A (Obama): pro-death candidate

Candidate B (McCain): pro-life candidate

Because so many “pro-life” catholics voted for Obama, we now are looking at 2 new pro-death supreme court justices (first Sotomayer, then the successor to Stevens). We could have had two pro-life justices. But pro-Obama catholics prevailed. And the killing goes on. And on.

Ishii

Not to mention the funding of abortions and forced sterilizations overseas and the inclusion of public funding of abortion in the Health Care bill.

Fortunately we have a new generation of Bishops who are not afraid to speak forcibley on this issue. My Bishop, Archbishop Chaput, has been publicy outspoken in hios support for the unborn and those who would ratinalize supporting the enablers of the slaughter of the innocents.

 

[CPA2]

If Catholic were obliged to vote solely according to the issue of abortion, then they would so open to manipulation…
there are other things to take into consideration, not just abortion

Poverty and abortion are not separate issues! I do not think that we should start with feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless.

Let’s start with opposition to abortion. There are many who praise Mother Theresa for her work with the poor. However, they do not share her opposition to abortion. Failure to understand her opposition to abortion is also a failure to understand her work for the poor. The two concepts are inseparable.

Mother Theresa’s understanding of poverty was much more profound than most of us realize. She would often say that we were made to love and be loved. Poverty is the failure to love. The height of poverty is the failure to recognize another person as a human being, and legally destroying that human being.