It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[CPA2]

My conscience is clear, and my posts speak for themselves. I’m not misleading anyone. Are you?

The most powerful words in the Creed of the Catholic Church are, “I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth…” We live in God’s world, not our world. God is the source of the universe and our existence. Our task is to understand and come to terms with that. We are to respect and live in the world as God intended.

Christians form their conscience through education, prayer and the teaching of Jesus Christ. Conscience and truth go together. Society is adrift on a sea of hopelessness if you try to form your conscience without reference to God’s truths.

The Catholic Church taught that abortion is a great evil long before science made it clear that each individual is genetically unique. The Catholic Church still teaches this, even in the face of lack of respect for the sanctity of human life.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I will say the same thing to this last poster that I said in my previous post, and I will continue to call posters on non-responsive posts. There is no relationsihp between my comment that you boxed and what lies underneath that box. Nothing I have said defies the Credo, etc.

So if you have some insinuation you’re trying to imply, state it, don’t be coy.

I never said anything abuot “trying to form one’s conscience without reference to God’s truths.”

I’m as Catholic as you are or anyone else on CAF, and if you’re implying anything else, I’ll have to contact the moderators about that.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I will say the same thing to this last poster that I said in my previous post, and I will continue to call posters on non-responsive posts.

Poster 1: “Democracy is bad. Up with the totalitarian state!”

Poster 2: “I vote for whomever I want and if you don’t like it, that’s too bad.”

Poster 3: “Anyone who votes for a pro-choice politician is a murderer.”

Me: “This will not end well.”

Anybody disagree so far? I might have included the post about how a voter for a pro-chocie candidate has the blood of the innocents on his hands, but that might have been overkill.

Look, folks, this is the Good the Bad and The Ugly, and we have Clint Eastwood, Lee Van Cleef, and Eli Wallach standing in a triangle staring at each other (you decide who’s who). .

Nobody has advanced any new arguments in about 3 pages, so why don’t we let this one 404, eh?

 

[estesbob]

Christians form their conscience through education, prayer and the teaching of Jesus Christ. Conscience and truth go together. Society is adrift on a sea of hopelessness if you try to form your conscience without reference to God’s truths.
.

As Catholics we also have the guidance of the Church:

[1785](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1785.htm’) In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and **guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55 **

 

[estesbob]

Poster 1: “Democracy is bad. Up with the totalitarian state!”

Poster 2: “I vote for whomever I want and if you don’t like it, that’s too bad.”

Poster 3: “Anyone who votes for a pro-choice politician is a murderer.”

Me: “This will not end well.”

Anybody disagree so far? I might have included the post about how a voter for a pro-chocie candidate has the blood of the innocents on his hands, but that might have been overkill.

Look, folks, this is the Good the Bad and The Ugly, and we have Clint Eastwood, Lee Van Cleef, and Eli Wallach standing in a triangle staring at each other (you decide who’s who). .

Nobody has advanced any new arguments in about 3 pages, so why don’t we let this one 404, eh?

Actually what we have seen in this this thread is people patienty posting quotes from the Cathecism, the Vatican and other members of the magestium being rebutted ONLY by “I have to follow my concience” and/or my Priest told me it was OK.

Can anyone post a quote from any member of the magestrium that stated there were proportionate reasons that would have allowed for one to vote for Barrack Obama. I mean specifically, like this opposing view from a member of the Magestrium:

*To portray the 2008 Democratic Party presidential ticket as the preferred ‘‘prolife’’ option is to subvert what the word ‘‘prolife’’ means. Anyone interested in Senator Obama’s record on abortion and related issues should simply read Prof. Robert P. George’s Public Discourse essay from earlier this week, ‘‘Obama’s Abortion Extremism,’’ and his follow-up article, ‘‘Obama and Infanticide.’’ They say everything that needs to be said. *
**

*Archbishop Chaput

 

[Nyarlathotep]

AC still didn’t say you can’t vote for the guy.

Also, see my post on “burden of proof” (i.e., it’s yours, not mine)

Also, see:

vox-nova.com/2007/05/23/can-catholics-vote-for-pro-abortion-politicians/

and

answerbag.com/debates/catholics-vote-pro-choice-politicians-_1855513

and

bustedhalo.com/questionbox/abortion-should-catholics-who-vote-for-pro-choice-politicians-receive-communion/
“Archbishop Vlazny of Oregon offered these thoughts in the Portland Catholic Sentinel: “If they vote for pro-choice politicians precisely because they are pro-choice, I believe they, too, should refrain from the reception of Holy Communion because they are not in communion with the church on a serious matter. But if they are voting for that particular politician because, in their judgment, other candidates fail significantly in some matters of great importance, for example, war and peace, human rights and economic justice, then there is no evident stance of opposition to church teaching and reception of Holy Communion seems both appropriate and beneficial. Catholics who support pro-choice politicians still have serious responsibilities with regard to their stance on this matter. They must make it very clear to these politicians and governmental leaders that their support is in no way based on the pro-choice advocacy of these political leaders.””

 

[estesbob]

AC still didn’t say you can’t vote for the guy.

Also, see my post on “burden of proof” (i.e., it’s yours, not mine)

Also, see:

vox-nova.com/2007/05/23/can-catholics-vote-for-pro-abortion-politicians/

and

answerbag.com/debates/catholics-vote-pro-choice-politicians-_1855513

and

bustedhalo.com/questionbox/abortion-should-catholics-who-vote-for-pro-choice-politicians-receive-communion/

Thanks for the links. Now can you post a quote from a single member of the Magestrium who stated there were proportionated reasons that would allow a Catholic to have voted for Obama?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Again, post #414 is non-responsive and illogical.

The only thing that “doesn’t end well” is for anyone on CAF to assume, and then post publicly, that he or she knows the motivations, ballot choices, conscience, and voting behavior of any particular Catholic voter. You do not. You are not to invade the conscience of any other Catholic, because that is forbidden by the Catholic Church, and in fact such judgments are mortally sinful. The individual Catholic is accountable to the teachings of the Church and the choices available to that Catholic; he or she is not accountable to you or to any other non-expert, non-authority on CAF without the ability to discern. You are not anyone’s confessor unless you are clergy, and no clergy on CAF has ever, in the time I have been on this forum, made statements from afar about the purity of anyone’s conscience as judged from forum postings. No well-trained Catholic priest would ever do that; he knows much better because he knows that without speaking to such a layperson, judgment is not possible and very likely inaccurate.

You’re responsible for your conscience, not mine or anyone else’s. The saints were not focused on other people’s consciences but their own consciences and behavior and sinfulness.

 

[estesbob]

Again, post #414 is non-responsive and illogical.

The only thing that “doesn’t end well” is for anyone on CAF to assume, and then post publicly, that he or she knows the motivations, ballot choices, conscience, and voting behavior of any particular Catholic voter. You do not. You are not to invade the conscience of any other Catholic, because that is forbidden by the Catholic Church, and in fact such judgments are mortally sinful. The individual Catholic is accountable to the teachings of the Church and the choices available to that Catholic; he or she is not accountable to you or to any other non-expert, non-authority on CAF without the ability to discern. You are not anyone’s confessor unless you are clergy, and no clergy on CAF has ever, in the time I have been on this forum, made statements from afar about the purity of anyone’s conscience as judged from forum postings. No well-trained Catholic priest would ever do that; he knows much better because he knows that without speaking to such a layperson, judgment is not possible and very likely inaccurate.

You’re responsible for your conscience, not mine or anyone else’s. The saints were not focused on other people’s consciences but their own consciences and behavior and sinfulness.

Actually the Church is responsible for helping us form our Conscience. Otherwise there qwould be no need for a Chuch. Just because one does something "in good conscience " does not make right:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
[1791](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1791.htm’) This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
[1792](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1792.htm’) Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
[1793](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1793.htm’) If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
[1794](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1794.htm’) A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60
The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61

 

[Elizabeth502]

Actually the Church is responsible for helping us form our Conscience.

Do some of you just randomly post/reply without reading the content of other posters’ replies?

Here’s what I just said:

The individual Catholic is accountable to the teachings of the Church

Beyond that, it is not any of your concern, nor the concern of other posters, as to who is and is not “sinning” (that is, following or not following their informed, shaped consciences), etc. Like me, you have a soul to save, Your own. So does each and every Catholic have that as his or her primary responsibility. That is pretty much a full-time job for each of us. You’re not my confessor, nor is anyone else on CAF. My conscience is quite clear and quite well-informed – in some cases apparently far stricter and better informed than some lay people on CAF and some clergy not on CAF.

 

[estesbob]

Do some of you just randomly post/reply without reading the content of other posters’ replies?

Here’s what I just said:

Beyond that, it is not any of your concern, nor the concern of other posters, as to who is and is not “sinning” (that is, following or not following their informed, shaped consciences), etc. Like me, you have a soul to save, Your own. So does each and every Catholic have that as his or her primary responsibility. That is pretty much a full-time job for each of us. You’re not my confessor, nor is anyone else on CAF. My conscience is quite clear and quite well-informed – in some cases apparently far stricter and better informed than some lay people on CAF and some clergy not on CAF.

You are psoitng to a Catholic Forum-thats where we :
“discuss” things. . If you dont want people commneting on your views your best bet is to not post.

Can you show us a single member of the Magestrium who said there were proportionate reasons that would have allowed for a Catholic to votr for Obama.

 

[Rence]

As Catholics we also have the guidance of the Church:

[1785](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1785.htm’) In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and **guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55 **

That’s what my priest said too. He referenced this quote when we spoke. He also referenced some encyclicals on other matters we spoke about. But he assured me that though we are “guided”, and we are to consider their advise and teachings with an open heart, we are not required to follow explicitly what they offer in these teachings. We are only required to follow infallible statements, those given ex cathedra. We still have the autonomy to make choices in matters such as voting, etc. when such advise and guidance is not spoken ex cathedra.

 

[Elizabeth502]

You are psoitng to a Catholic Forum-thats where we :
“discuss” things. . If you dont want people commneting on your views your best bet is to not post.

You are “discussing” (for some reason you put the word in quotes) aspects that are beyond your knowledge and role.

I do want people commenting on my views, not on their inaccurate suppositions about my views. I do not want, nor should you want, any cyber stranger commenting on your conscience or on mine. You have zero authority to comment on my conscience, according to the Catholic Church. You have zero knowledge about my conscience. Even clergy on CAF do not comment on my conscience, or on yours.

Being on CAF does not suspend the Catholic moral imperatives against rash judgment.

I’ll keep saying it until you get it: You have a soul to save: Your own. That is your primary responsibility. It is not your primary responsibility or even secondary responsibility to speculate on the souls of cyber acquaintances whose decisions and lives and spirtual state you know next to nothing about.

 

[estesbob]

That’s what my priest said too. He referenced this quote when we spoke. He also referenced some encyclicals on other matters we spoke about. But he assured me that though we are “guided”, and we are to consider their advise and teachings with an open heart, we are not required to follow explicitly what they offer in these teachings. We are only required to follow infallible statements, those given ex cathedra. We still have the autonomy to make choices in matters such as voting, etc. when such advise and guidance is not spoken ex cathedra.

Here is Archbishop Chaput’s(a member of the magestrium) comments on the 2008 election

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=30135

Can you tell us where he got it wrong? Bishop Finn of Dallas made similar comments-as did 60 other Bishops.

 

[Rence]

Here is Archbishop Chaput’s(a member of the magestrium) comments on the 2008 election

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=30135

Can you tell us where he got it wrong? Bishop Finn of Dallas made similar comments-as did 60 other Bishops.

Estesbob, thank you for pointing out that article to me. I read it and appreciate this most out of it:

• "… we each have a duty to study and grow in our faith, guided by the teaching of the Church. It also means that we have a duty to be politically engaged. Why? Because politics is the exercise of power, and the use of power always has moral content and human consequences.

As Christians, we can’t claim to love God and then ignore the needs of our neighbors. Loving God is like loving a spouse. A husband may tell his wife that he loves her, and of course that’s very beautiful. But she’ll still want to see the evidence in his actions. Likewise if we claim to be ‘‘Catholic,’’ we need to prove it by our behavior. And serving other people by working for justice and charity in our nation’s political life is one of the very important ways we do that.
*

When voting, or lobbying, or writing letters to my senators and representatives regarding political issues, including bills, it is most important to me to consider the needs of my neighbors, all of them. This encompasses a wide variety of issues. All of them are important issues to me. No candidate is going to address all of the issues that I consider important, in the way I believe it is important, and they may even conflict with what I consider important. But I weigh the pros and cons of each, and weigh them against each other. If I see that a candidate is going to do good in some area that is important to me, but is useless in another area that is important to me, I have to consider what that candidate can and cannot do and where he or she will be most effective.

 

[estesbob]

Estesbob, thank you for pointing out that article to me. I read it and appreciate this most out of it:

*"… we each have a duty to study and grow in our faith, guided by the teaching of the Church. It also means that we have a duty to be politically engaged. Why? Because politics is the exercise of power, and the use of power always has moral content and human consequences. *

*As Christians, we can’t claim to love God and then ignore the needs of our neighbors. Loving God is like loving a spouse. A husband may tell his wife that he loves her, and of course that’s very beautiful. But she’ll still want to see the evidence in his actions. Likewise if we claim to be ‘‘Catholic,’’ we need to prove it by our behavior. And serving other people by working for justice and charity in our nation’s political life is one of the very important ways we do that. *

When voting, or lobbying, or writing letters to my senators and representatives regarding political issues, including bills, it is most important to me to consider the needs of my neighbors, all of them. This encompasses a wide variety of issues. All of them are important issues to me. No candidate is going to address all of the issues that I consider important, in the way I believe it is important, and they may even conflict with what I consider important. But I weigh the pros and cons of each, and weigh them against each other. If I see that a candidate is going to do good in some area that is important to me, but is useless in another area that is important to me, I have to consider what that candidate can and cannot do and where he or she will be most effective.

But thats not what the Church tells us to do. You weigh the pro-and cons of a canidate AFTER you determine their position on abortion . Can you tell me what you saw ithaty woud have allowed us to vote for Obama that Chaptut, Finn and every other member of the magestrium missed?

 

[Worthy5]

=estesbob;6586337]But thats not what the Church tells us to do. You weigh the pro-and cons of a canidate AFTER you determine their position on abortion . Can you tell me what you saw ithaty woud have allowed us to vote for Obama that Chaptut, Finn and every other member of the magestrium missed?

Yes they miss a very simple but all important point----the Catholic Church has no rubric of authority on issues of American law. This poster does not care what these Bishops have to say because in the area of civil law they have no authority. It is that simple. End of discussion.

God Bless

 

[CPA2]

The Catholic Church does not tell us for whom we should vote. However, the Catholic Church would be negligent if it did not teach, particularly in moral matters. The mission of the Church is "to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics."

The Church is obligated by the teachings of Our Lord to communicate without compromise the truth in the area of morals, especially as they impact the common good of society. The taking of innocent life (abortion) is never justifiable, and a law that permits this is flawed because it violates the common good.

 

[Worthy5]

=CPA2;

The Curch is obligated by the teachings of Our Lord to communicate without compromise the truth in the area of morals, especially as they impact the common good of society. The taking of innocent life (abortion) is never justifiable, and a law that permits this is flawed because it violates the common good.

My friend, the " common good" is a very vague thing. Pro-choice position is based on the notion that the policy of a limited government is necessary for the" common good " of a free society.

 

[CPA2]

My friend, the " common good" is a very vague thing. Pro-choice position is based on the notion that the policy of a limited government is necessary for the" common good " of a free society.

Why does the pro-death lobby need to rationalize the murder of the innocent? As an auditor, I always look for rationalizations when dealing with fraud.