It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[CPA2]

I am not into salvation theology. I am too ignorant of personal situations to even broach the subject. I do know, however, that we have to know that something is a serious sin to commit a mortal sin. If I denied Jesus, and did not repent, I am sure that I would go to hell. (Repentance was the difference between Judas and St. Peter.) I have had every opportunity in the world to know, love and serve God, and to follow Jesus. I am also certain that some of my Hindu friends, who do not know Jesus, are close to the Kingdom of God.

Catholics believe that the truth from the Holy Spirit must be honored wherever it is found. Neither the Catholic Church, nor other Christian churches, is the only one to possess truth. Other religions, especially the Jewish faith, share many essential traditions with Christianity. However, I would think that our intimacy with Jesus would make finding the truth a little bit easier.

I am sorry that I cannot answer all of your questions completely. God is a mystery. I am just a child of God. I am searching for the absolute truth, truth with a capital “T,” just like you are.

 

[Lypher]

Dear Elizabeth,

Please pardon my past sarcasm as this is an extremely important topic that deserves far more seriousness then I gave it, however please note that what I posted said I would judge “actions”. I never said I would judge their sin with regards to what Gods judgment would be. You are incorrect in your statement about us not being responsible for each other’s conscience. We are charged to help form each other’s consciences (CCC 1868 and 1869 Below)…So here goes…

Good. Apparently you feel that you need to do quite a bit of such asking for forgiveness…

Certainly after all I am a sinner.

CCC 1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."117

*116 *St. Augustine, Sermo 169, 11, 13: PL 38, 923.
117 Jn 8-9.

Omniscience is God’s; not yours, not mine. We are told this over and over in scripture (including by Jesus himself) and in the full tradition of Catholic teaching from the early Fathers onward. As such, only God knows why a person does anything, including what choices that person had, including what disposition that person had when making the choice, including how emotionally balanced that person was or was not, what else was interfering with any decision to act, to vote, to speak, or to enter keystrokes on a computer keyboard. This is why even the Catholic Church specifically says that several conditions are necessary to move from grave matter to mortal sin, and that no one from the outside of that person’s mind (including CAF members) can know whether all those conditions are present – except anyone to whom that person wishes to reveal his or her mind…

CCC 1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

· by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
· by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
· by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
· by protecting evil-doers.

CCC 1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. “Structures of sin” are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144

144 John Paul II, RP 16.

CCC 1865 Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.

***As Catholics and Christians we KNOW the moral goodness, or evilness of things at their root. ***

 

[Lypher]

Nor will I. I don’t put baby-killers in office. But plenty of fornicators and their accomplices willingly – not by force – enter into buildings where they choose to kill their babies. Before Roe v. Wade, such killers of their own babies did this regularly, underground, overseas, or otherwise illicitly. In the vast majority of cases, an abortionist cannot force a woman to have an abortion. Some women go to abortionists with their minds solidly made up. Others go tentatively, then decide not to proceed. In the case of a single act, the abortionist is as, and no more, morally culpable, than the woman herself – presuming she was not coerced but was free to make a choice…

***Culpability depends on the abortionist’s knowledge of the nature and ramifications of the sin and or consequences of what he or she is doing to the women. Did he or she provide them with all of this information? With people outside of PP letting those that enter know they are sinning and what the consequences of their actions are the below is possible but not probable as the armor of invincible ignorance would likely be shattered. ***

CCC 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

More likely this is the situation, but then again only they know and only GOD will judge them, but we are charged to make sure they know that what they are doing is sinful. We ARE to judge the sin, NOT the sinner. (See CCC 1868)

CCC 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

133 Cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31.

Lots of things are legal but potentially lethal (becoming intoxicated to danger of self & others; becoming a heavy smoker). Lots of things are legal but immoral (pornography). Lots of things are legal but morally neutral unless abused (gambling; addiction to media such as video games or discussion forums). It is not the legality of the situation but the freely willed participation in it, that constitutes the morality or lack of it. .

Are you arguing that putting a wolf in a nursery is morally acceptable since we cannot know for sure that it will kill? I would think your above argument about intentionally “becoming intoxicated to danger of self & others;” applies here? That being said Catholics know the position of the Church and they know the likely vote of a Pro-Death candidate, so they are complicit in any vote, which causes a life to end, each and every one. Claiming ignorance makes their sin only MORE grave.

 

[Lypher]

Voting for a particular candidate who is not willing to fantasize that he or she will single handedly overturn Roe v. Wade, does not change the moral equation, nor the statistics, for those who choose abortions. Those who want them will obtain them by whatever means they can. Neither “more” nor “less” babies will die as a result of a particular candidate necessarily being voted into office. There are chemical abortions as an alternative, as well as surgical abortions in countries where the U.S. had no jurisdiction and not much influence.

More babies have died with clean abortions then the women in the back alleys with dirty ones. Your statements are not based in fact. Please find the statistics showing the number of women procuring dirty abortions that died that is greater then the 49,551,703 that I found at nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html I doubt you can find a number even close. I certainly could not the MOST I could find was <750 in 1945 in the site below. If we ban them some women will die, you are probably right. Those that chose to kill a baby illegally, however MILLIONS will life. Because not all those that want them will obtain them, just like in the past, which is one of the reason Margaret Sanger fought so hard to let the butchering be done in the open.

***This NOW site could only come up with seven and a statement of a small representation (They did not give a number) ***

now.org/issues/abortion/120904women-who-died.html

Here is a great graph which shows in 1945 less then 750 and it drops……

realchoice.blogspot.com/2008/12/abortion-deaths-in-1950s.html

CCC 1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

39 Cf. Mt 6:2-4.

(Feigned ignorance is NO excuse)

CCC 2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76
75 Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320.

76 GS 51 § 3

***(The question below is what do you believe “Formal cooperation” is? If you know for certain that a person will vote for death is that not cooperating? If you place a pedophile in a day care would you be somewhat responsible? You can hide behind ignorance yet CCC 1859 makes the act of hiding even worse then participation if you know that your vote could have made the difference. ***

Your comment about one vote not making a difference is false. With a 1 vote margin super majority in the senate 1 VOTE could kill millions. One vote does count…. Please see

**members.misty.com/don/whyvote.html **

 

[Lypher]

CCC 2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

77 CIC, can. 1398.

78 CIC, can. 1314.

79 Cf. CIC, cann. 1323-1324.

We are told to judge correctly, not to NOT judge. We are not supposed to say someone is or is not going to hell, but we ARE supposed to judge their actions and point out their sins so that they can form their consciences. If you KNOW what someone is doing is wrong you MUST point it out or you yourself are guilty.

John 7: 24 “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly”

We are told to love the sinner. I do not hate any of the people involved with this horrible industry, but the industry is bad and needs to be stopped. Many that are performing and using are not Christian and not Catholic, those that are, I will pray for.
Catholics and Christians that mistakenly think their vote does not make them guilty need to be informed so that they too can ask for forgiveness. Standing by and watching a murder, robbery or rape will cause you to be condemned in an earthly court of law and we have been told from the founding of the Church that participation in abortion is a terrible sin in the eyes of God…

I hope you see from where I am coming from now…

 

[Lypher]

I just read Chaput. Thanks for posting it. He is a marvelous writer. Sure makes me want to crawl into a closet and never return to the Catholic Church because of my vote. Not to mention many others who have written, spoken, and have shunned me personally because of this vote.

Is there anyone on this board that voted Obama?? How do you feel…can you go to church?

I am struggling to stay Catholic. I am hurting by others self righteous comments. I feel like my church of 22yr. which I have been highly active in has turned to one sided Republicans and not accepting of anyone else.

(I don’t feel that my choice was bad with the choices that we had and I do think it is a sin to vote for someone who wants to kill babies)

Certainly, my feelings about leaving the church don’t come from this board. This has helped me communicate my thoughts and feelings better so I appreciate it. However, I am not righteous, in my eyes, only God is…and I know that self-righteousness is not humble or gentle like God wants us to be.

Thanks for listening
ps~not the time Obama articles with response to my posting, thanks.

Dear Donna,

You should not leave the Church due to your vote. You should not leave the church for any reason as their is NO salvation outside the Catholic Church for Catholics that leave…

I have been doing a lot of postings and I would not want you to think that I Judge any individual for their past sins. I will help to show you what the church teachings are, because that is what we are all asked to do. We need to depend on each other to show us the correct path.

I am a sorry sinner myself. I was raised Lutheran and am still not technically Roman Catholic as I am still in RCIA. I used to be indifferent to Contraception and I was Pro-Choice and actively voiced my support and even aided family members that desired them with funding.

I regret ALL of these actions now. I have been shown the way by other Roman Catholics that got me to read some encyclicals and although I was skeptical of the RCC I fell in love with Pope Paul’s VI encyclical Humanae Vitae. He predicted the mess we are in now prior to the legalization of contraception and the ushering in of the culture of death.

I now believe that this single act has headed our Great Country into grave peril. I believe that the baby’s that were killed left a vacuum in our country that is now being filled by illegal aliens. I believe that the moral decay predicted by the Pope is exactly what has happened.

I tell you these things so that you can see that many of the people that are so opposed to voting for Pro-Death candidates my very well have been on that side of the aisle at some point in time.

I do know of many people that voted for Obamma and although most of them are pretty upset with him due to taxes, budget, health care, most don’t bat an eye concerning abortion. For me… I have changed I am now a staunch anti abortionist and believe it or not I actually think we owe health care to illegal aliens if we don’t secure the borders. I pretty much agree with the USCCB now. This is a shocking change coming from me, but hey even old dogs can learn if kicked hard enough. Or whispered softly to by a newly formed heart…

We are ALL sinners and we need each other in this walk toward God and salvation. I hope and pray that you never abandon Christ, or your Church for anybody, issue, or candidate… This life is just not worth it…

As far as that ofter “Self righteous” windbag comments from people like me…ignore them and just pray that their and my rantings get softened to soft heart changing murmurs that keep souls tuned to God. Help to heal the rifts and grow in understanding of our Lord. We need everyone in the Church.

 

[Elizabeth502]

My, my: Four posts of rants in a row (453-456). That’s all nice and good, but it has nothing to do with me. Nothing. Nor do I need a lecture on the CCC, due to post-graduate training in theology. I’m well acquainted with moral parameters. I think you need to save your rants for others.

 

[Lypher]

My, my: Four posts of rants in a row (453-456). That’s all nice and good, but it has nothing to do with me. Nothing. Nor do I need a lecture on the CCC, due to post-graduate training in theology. I’m well acquainted with moral parameters. I think you need to save your rants for others.

You know I am not even a Roman Catholic yet, and I am ashamed of your post.

Your comments are extremely uncharitable arrogant and totally non instructive. Your graduate degree could have been put to use evangelizing, maybe even showing me the errors of my understanding of the CCC, instead you post the above. This is definitely not in accordance with the General Directory for Catechesis that the Church has been instructing me in.

What a sad use of your education and this forum of “Catholic Answers” for the Church.

You gave me no anwers just pushed me away from the CCC…

 

[Elizabeth502]

You know I am not even a Roman Catholic yet, and I am ashamed of your post.

Your comments are extremely uncharitable arrogant and totally non instructive. Your graduate degree could have been put to use evangelizing, maybe even showing me the errors of my understanding of the CCC, instead you post the above. This is definitely not in accordance with the General Directory for Catechesis that the Church has been instructing me in.

What a sad use of your education and this forum of “Catholic Answers” for the Church.

You gave me no anwers just pushed me away from the CCC…

Again, I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is just one more non-responsive post. You responded to my earlier post with 4 long lectures that were off-topic from anything I posted, yet were placed underneath quotes of my previous post, oddly. This post of yours is an ad hominem attack on me that violates TOS. There’s nothing “extremely uncharitable” about my response. I responded that you lectured me inappropriately (which you did), on topics I don’t need educating about. They might be appropriate for some other posts, but not for mine, and certainly not for someone of my background. (It’s helpful to first determine if the person even needs an “education” in the CCC before repeating long portions to posters, but particularly if that repetition has nothing to do with what your debaters stated.)

You also mysteriously state just now that you’re “not a Roman Catholic yet.” Nevertheless your personal info in the upper right corner states that you are a Catholic.

I’m sorry that you found my response “non-instructive.” It’s not helpful for other debaters on this thread for me to get into "instruction " relative to extremely long posts, and my purpose as a contributor is not to “instruct” unless someone specifcally asks for that.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Get back on topic and cease from the childish bickering.

 

[donna_jean]

Thank you to your reply. I do need some help and guidance because I am struggling at my own church. An RCIA candidate that is awesome. I was once a sponsor.

I feel it is a sin to vote for pro-abortion candidates. I feel I have not voted for a pro-abortion candidates…so I don’t feel I sinned…in this regard…anyway…

Yes, we are all sinners yet it is important to strive not to be a sinner which is why we should be living by the commandments. I feel that our country is a mess because we slowly began taking prayer away from everyday life, and the commandments away from public places…In my life, that is when I noticed change.

Truth be known, I am one of those Catholics who does not believe any faith is perfect. This is good because I am accepting to most. I actually believe there is more of sin in telling someone they sinned because of who they voted for. What I see is people twisting things around to point fingers at others (sometimes our president) to make themselves look/feel Godly when in fact, I truly see it as not gentle or good.

I feel strength is not in telling people they are wrong. I feel that if we took a kinder, loving and gentle approach to people instead of putting a bumper sticker on our car saying “Abortion-baby killer” that things could actually change for the good. But until we as people get off our high almighty ways and actually try and act like Jesus, we will continue to separate ourselves from church and one another.

No Salvation outside of our church??? I questions this. My daughter asked this question to our priest some 15 years ago…“So say a guy is a murderer and he asks God for forgiveness as he died…this guy never went to church…will God forgive him, will he be saved?” A simple child’s question…

When we as people go too far…we alienate…people need to feel accepted…I am not saying to accept someone who says abortion is good. It is better to not even engage. I believe there are many scriptures telling us not to engage.

Now, that is me…I am a good, kind, and loving person and not one who would normally stay posted to this question…but I do appreciate reading and writing.

Since I am struggling with my own church, I am wondering if there is a place on this sight that might be better to address some of this with others?

Did someone post something somewhere else that I missed?

Thank you

 

[Lypher]

Thank you to your reply. I do need some help and guidance because I am struggling at my own church. An RCIA candidate that is awesome. I was once a sponsor.

Donna, That is great the Sponsors are greatly needed and appreciated by us, probably a lot more then you might have realized.

I feel it is a sin to vote for pro-abortion candidates. I feel I have not voted for a pro-abortion candidates…so I don’t feel I sinned…in this regard…anyway…

Well I to read the link you mentioned and I guess it does depend on gravity of decisions. I too am struggling with this. I am just not sure if the way the Social Justice issues that Pres. Obama may address will cause more good then the harm the appointments to the bench with regards to Roe-V-Wade will make. Then again we get into the whole idea that the church teaches that doing grave wrong that may cause right is not justified. I used to believe as you, but I have change my stance on the culture of death pretty much 180 degrees.

Yes, we are all sinners yet it is important to strive not to be a sinner which is why we should be living by the commandments. I feel that our country is a mess because we slowly began taking prayer away from everyday life, and the commandments away from public places…In my life, that is when I noticed change.

I too agree that the taking of prayer away has hurt the country, but I think it started with the acceptance by Christians of the right to take life. I think that once the hurdle allowing a person to freely choose to kill was reached that it is pretty hard to then allow someone else to point a finger for the injustice in prayer. Can you imagine a 10th or 11th grade child praying in school to end abortion? I imagine in todays culture of self that the feelings of guilt for certain others would be so strong that they may feel offended, probably were, and protested that it was cruel.

Truth be known, I am one of those Catholics who does not believe any faith is perfect. This is good because I am accepting to most. I actually believe there is more of sin in telling someone they sinned because of who they voted for. What I see is people twisting things around to point fingers at others (sometimes our president) to make themselves look/feel Godly when in fact, I truly see it as not gentle or good.

I believe that Jesus said the Catholic Church as an institution, moral teaching, and such is pretty close. However we are a Church made up of sinners and so in our daily practice of trying to reach perfection we consistently trip over ourselves and each other. Which is why we need each others help, since many of us (Me) are stumbling blindly to understand.

I feel strength is not in telling people they are wrong. I feel that if we took a kinder, loving and gentle approach to people instead of putting a bumper sticker on our car saying “Abortion-baby killer” that things could actually change for the good. But until we as people get off our high almighty ways and actually try and act like Jesus, we will continue to separate ourselves from church and one another.

I agree for the most part, but their are certain sins that cry out to be addressed, and I believe that this is one of those. To me it is the same as the German citizenry that stood by in their villages while Jews were being slaughtered and did not want to “Get Involved”. At the end of the War most of the world pointed to this inaction as horrendous. I do not want to be in that position when I am trying to account for my own sins. Like others I too have a LOT to account for already.

 

[Lypher]

No Salvation outside of our church??? I questions this. My daughter asked this question to our priest some 15 years ago…“So say a guy is a murderer and he asks God for forgiveness as he died…this guy never went to church…will God forgive him, will he be saved?” A simple child’s question…

Well this is only for Catholics. CCC 846. Invincible Ignorance for others means that the Church does not say they might not go. It does not say they will go, but it does not say they won’t be saved. The Church does however say that once someone has been informed of the Catholic Church and they reject her they will not be saved. That is as long as they have rejected her.

I have been told that your question is why the Church now allows those people that have committed suicide to be buried in hollowed ground. It is because nobody knows what the last thoughts of that person were. Maybe they did reach out to God and beg for forgiveness. I personally find comfort in that. That being said the individual would still have to account for their sins, including suicide. The Church only condemns those that reject the Church to the end.

When we as people go too far…we alienate…people need to feel accepted…I am not saying to accept someone who says abortion is good. It is better to not even engage. I believe there are many scriptures telling us not to engage.

Well I think that we should love the sinner and hate the sin. Christ consorted with the worst of society of his day, and for good reasons. However this was to evangelize, but once that is tried and not proven successful we are supposed to dust off our sandals and walk away. We do not have to be cruel when we walk away. I think we should be sad, since we just lost a soul.

Now, that is me…I am a good, kind, and loving person and not one who would normally stay posted to this question…but I do appreciate reading and writing.

AWESOME!!!

Since I am struggling with my own church, I am wondering if there is a place on this sight that might be better to address some of this with others?

Did someone post something somewhere else that I missed?

If you are not already aware you can search for topics here.

forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php

I have found that listening to Catholic Answers has really helped to open my eyes and pushed me to read the Bible. If you are not aware you can listen live via the radio here, or via PODCAST via I-Tunes.

catholic.com/radio/calendar.php

You know Mother Theresa had problems with faith her whole life, but she never gave up. I will pray for you and hope that you can delve into readings and scripture to find your way.

Take Care,

Lypher

 

[estesbob]

I am struggling to stay Catholic. I am hurting by others self righteous comments. I feel like my church of 22yr. which I have been highly active in has turned to one sided Republicans and not accepting of anyone else.

(I don’t feel that my choice was bad with the choices that we had and I do think it is a sin to vote for someone who wants to kill babies)

.

I really wish that I could consider a Democrat for national office. Instead of bemonaing the fact that you fellow Parishioner’s are not accepting perhaps you should wonder why it is the Democrat party puts you in this moral dilema. IMO the problem is that those who want to adhere to Church teachings on abortion generally have only two choices. Vote Republican or not vote at all(or vote for a non-viable third party canidate which is the same as not voting at all)

 

[donna_jean]

Thank you for your replies. I am a registered republican.
I am a bible reader, I pray a good portion of each day, I repent, I listen to the radio, I love Christian music and listen to it most frequently, I have given to the church my time, talent and treasures in so many ways…and I have been given back multitudes. I have been a spiritual leader, a healing developer, worked closely with the homeless, those who need healing in all areas of life…

So thank you for the Mother Theresa comment…that I will keep close to my heart.

I believe it is a sin to vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

I believe that politics is not a thing to ignore yet I don’t feel it should separate PEOPLE from their faith. When strong comments are made that interfere with a persons faith life, that is wrong and this is in our Catechism.

I believe it is a sin to vote for pro-abortion candidates, yet I feel an extremely deep broken part of my heart that is saying it is wrong…we are judging something that is up to God ~not us. “Let it be and bring people together” is what I hear from God’s voice, not mine!!!

What is it that I can do to bring people together???

 

[estesbob]

I believe that politics is not a thing to ignore yet I don’t feel it should separate PEOPLE from their faith. When strong comments are made that interfere with a persons faith life, that is wrong and this is in our Catechism.

I believe it is a sin to vote for pro-abortion candidates, yet I feel an extremely deep broken part of my heart that is saying it is wrong…we are judging something that is up to God ~not us. “Let it be and bring people together” is what I hear from God’s voice, not mine!!!

What is it that I can do to bring people together???

When someone rejects the teachingsof the Church they are seperating themsleves from their faith. We can not sit on the sidelines while Pelosi, Biden and many posters in CAF disort Cartholic Teaching to support their poltical views.

 

[CPA2]

Read your bibles. I try to recognize the signs of the times by reading my bible every day. I also read Our Lady’s messages every day. It is where I get “my take” on everything that I hear or read. It is how I form my Christian view on every issue.

We are to renounce disobedience to God and sin. God leads us to freedom, not oppression. God also leads us to joy, not sadness.

“Courage, little children! I decided to lead you on the way to holiness. Renounce sin and set out on the way of salvation, the way which my Son has chosen. Through each of your tribulations and sufferings God will find the way of joy for you…(Mary – March 25, 2006).”

If you read all of Mary’s messages you will see that what she is saying is already noted in the bible. It is no coincidence that she first appeared on the feast day of John the Baptist.

What makes this fascinating is that all of this is happening during our lifetime. “The signs of the times” are everywhere (Matt: 16 1-4). You would have to be a very distracted and unaware Christian to miss it. The words of the prophet Joel are being fulfilled (Joel 3:1).

Maria and Maria, two of the visionaries, spoke of signs preceding the great sign: “There are signs in many places in the world now. Many people see preliminary signs. Many experience personal healings, both physical and spiritual, and also psychological. Many have private signs. People have come to Medjugorje from all over the world. Often they have or have had extraordinary signs in their lives.”

Mary, Queen of Heaven, is the beacon for all Christians. It is God’s plan to have the “Woman Clothed with the Sun (Revelation 12:1)” to appear throughout the world. However, you would be correct not to exaggerate Mary’s importance. She must always be seen as subordinate to Christ.

The Chastisement is near. When Jesus died the earth quaked and the veil in the Temple was torn asunder (Matthew 27: 45-54). We can expect more of the same because of our materialistic philosophies and sinfulness. However, before the chastisement Mary says that there will be a warning and a great miracle.

 

[Lypher]

…we are judging something that is up to God ~not us. “Let it be and bring people together” is what I hear from God’s voice, not mine!!!

I am not sure if elections are up to God? I agree that dwelling on the negative aspects of people is wrong, but pointing out mortal sins is probably ok. I too do not like the hate filled speech and think that we should temper our condemnation of the acts not the person. That being said like you I will not vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Hopefully we can turn the tide and get some good pro-life candidates in each party to run.

What is it that I can do to bring people together???

I think living your Christian life is very important. I wonder how many other quite people in your parish feel the same way as you do and only see the hate? Having your loving example present may save some souls. It may also cause the hate filled masses to tone down their anger. So in the end walking and living as you have been sounds very wonderful. I would love to have you in my classes.

 

[donna_jean]

When someone rejects the teachingsof the Church they are seperating themsleves from their faith. We can not sit on the sidelines while Pelosi, Biden and many posters in CAF disort Cartholic Teaching to support their poltical views.

I have heard you loud and clear from the first time I posted, Bob. So, would you be like others then and tell me to go to a different church outside of Catholicism? I clearly have the separation feeling and it is because of this that I am on the edge…You are saying it is because I am against Catholic Teaching…I feel that there is no other church I would want to belong…so where does that leave a person like me???

I can not say I will ever believe the doctrines in any church…all of them…all the time…I am what one calls human…far beneath… and I do feel it is sinful to vote for a candidate that wants to kill.

 

[estesbob]

I have heard you loud and clear from the first time I posted, Bob. So, would you be like others then and tell me to go to a different church outside of Catholicism? I clearly have the separation feeling and it is because of this that I am on the edge…You are saying it is because I am against Catholic Teaching…I feel that there is no other church I would want to belong…so where does that leave a person like me???

I can not say I will ever believe the doctrines in any church…all of them…all the time…I am what one calls human…far beneath… and I do feel it is sinful to vote for a candidate that wants to kill.

I would never tell any Catholic to go to another Church. I would encourage them to do what i do when i have a problem with what the Church teahces. i follow it and strive to understand why the Church teaches the way they do.