It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[elts1956]

The Church says you can vote for the canidate who would do "less harm as far as abotion is concerned.

The last Presidential election was a good examole. Obama supported taxpayer funded abortions on demand with no restrictions. McCain opposed abortions except in cases of rape and incest. Neither poistion is in accordace with Church teaching but a Catholic could , in good conscience, vote for McCain but not Obama.

As to whether voting for a pro-abortion canidate is a sin no one can ever tell if anothers actions are a sin. The best we can say is voting for a Pro-abortion canidate is against the teachings of the Church. If a person has a properly formed conscience they would never do it.

UUH, I believe the Church has taken an official stand on this grave matter Major Tom. I believe you may be asking the question shouldn’t the Catholic Churches tax exemption be reconsidered. Due to the FACT that the Government has no right to interfere with our religous freedoms, I believe the answer to your question would be no.

The responsibility of the members of the Church, especially its clergy, is to teach morals in the Church, out of the Church and at all times. If this is done effectively and the members of the congregation are guided in the formation of correct consciences, use these well formed consciences and therefore defeat pro abort, euthanasia, pro homosexual marriage candidates. there is no way the tax exempt status can be rescinded. However, since these issues are also ones of politics, I think the clergy of the Church is afraid to show leadership, outspoken leadership. Let’s face it, the majority of Catholics only get their religious education from the pulpit once they are out of school. When is the last time anyone here has heard a strong emphatic statement from their Parish Priest that any support of abortion is wrong?? That abortion is the ultimate disease of this country that is taking us down??

 

[elts1956]

The Church says you can vote for the canidate who would do "less harm as far as abotion is concerned.

The last Presidential election was a good examole. Obama supported taxpayer funded abortions on demand with no restrictions. McCain opposed abortions except in cases of rape and incest. Neither poistion is in accordace with Church teaching but a Catholic could , in good conscience, vote for McCain but not Obama.

As to whether voting for a pro-abortion canidate is a sin no one can ever tell if anothers actions are a sin. The best we can say is voting for a Pro-abortion canidate is against the teachings of the Church. If a person has a properly formed conscience they would never do it.

UUH, I believe the Church has taken an official stand on this grave matter Major Tom. I believe you may be asking the question shouldn’t the Catholic Churches tax exemption be reconsidered. Due to the FACT that the Government has no right to interfere with our religous freedoms, I believe the answer to your question would be no.

You are free to believe what you like on whatever grounds. You need to prove to me why your position is correct. Prove to me that this applies to voting. I don’t believe it can, because it would really entail Catholics not voting.
I would challenge you to find one person in the US or UK who has “voted to kill” Well I think a good place to start would be among members of NOW and PLANNED PARENTHOOD.

CCC 1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them.

Many have not directly voted TO KILL, but they have certainly supported others who do and rule for it. The culpibility of those misguided souls is, I am sure,less than those who directly make and enforce the law, but they still have a responsibility to lessen evil as much as possible. This means not voting for a pro abort pol… One must support the politician that supports the lesser of the evil of the spread of abortion. I believe someone already said, on this thread? this is what happened in the last POTUS election. Obama pro death McCain only in cases of rape and incest. Both were wrong, but which was the more anti life candidate? Of course there was always the choice of voting for a third party candidate who would not win the election thereby giving clear access of the Presidency to bo. One may have a perfectly clear, rightous conscience in doing this, but it certainly wouldn’t help the decrease in abortions.

Not only in the issue of abortion is this opinion of morality true, but it is true in all actions in life. Lessen the Intrinsic evil whenever possible. That is the first rule.

 

[Lypher]

Indeed. That is the point, and such a position is an impossible position to support…

The eye of a needle is very small…

I’d also like to remind any potential opposer’s on this thread, that it is against the CAF Terms of Service to call CAF members “baby-killers” for voting for one particular candidate, or to call politicians baby-killers. I say this because these threads always bring out of the closet the greatest extremists who use unique rhetoric to support unique “theology.”.

The title of the thread is “It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates” I suppose that you have a point with regards to using descriptive wording of actions that although true might be considered vulgar by some. Calling someone an extremist could be considered hate filled as well if you happen to not like the clubbing of baby seals those siding on support of the clubbing could call you an environmental extremist, which might engender bad feelings. I personally believe that a baby human has the right to its life even more so then a seal, but that is just me. Others seem to think that Seals are more important then fetuses and others don’t care about either one. I would like to save them both.

The Church provides guidance for living, praying, behaving, and voting, based on absolute principles and absolute values. Beyond that, it does not itself become a stand-in for an absolutist totalitarian political state telling people how to vote “or else.” That sounds like a dream fantasy for some people on CAF, but it is simply not how it works.

I think the CCC is pretty clear. I am not sure exactly where in the bible you are referring to the Ten commandments being held up as the ten recommendation or used as just guidance? Can you please show me where abortion or even allowing some evil for a greater good is allowed in church doctrine?

Thanks… “Glad to be back from my conference”…

 

[elts1956]

Indeed. That is the point, and such a position is an impossible position to support.

I’d also like to remind any potential opposers on this thread, that it is against the CAF Terms of Service to call CAF members “baby-killers” for voting for one particular candidate, or to call politicians baby-killers. I say this because these threads always bring out of the closet the greatest extremists who use unique rhetoric to support unique “theology.”

The Church provides guidance for living, praying, behaving, and voting, based on absolute principles and absolute values. Beyond that, it does not itself become a stand-in for an absolutist totalitarian political state telling people how to vote “or else.” That sounds like a dream fantasy for some people on CAF, but it is simply not how it works.

There seems to be a division in the Church among its prelates and laity, those who follow Bernadin’s Seamless Garment theory, and those who, in my opinion, adhere more closely to what we are taught by the Church and what appears in the catechism. For some, especially those who follow Bernadin, there are either no Absolutes, or there are many absolutes. For those who adhere to the teachings of such Bishops as Finn, Chaput, Martino, Herman and Archbishop Burke, there is a hierarchy of evil which we as Catholics must adhere to and acknowledge the existence of such. Abortion is at its apex. To follow through logically with this belief, one would not support abortion even when voting, nor should we support a pro abort candidate. Now the Bernadin followers say, we can choose which issue is the most evil using our fallible subjective conscience instead of interpreting the teachings of the Magisterium in the way they should be clearly taught. Unfortunately these truths have not been emphasized by the progressive clergy here in the US and worldwide.

 

[Lypher]

There seems to be a division in the Church among its prelates and laity, those who follow Bernadin’s Seamless Garment theory, and those who, in my opinion, adhere more closely to what we are taught by the Church and what appears in the catechism. For some, especially those who follow Bernadin, there are either no Absolutes, or there are many absolutes. For those who adhere to the teachings of such Bishops as Finn, Chaput, Martino, Herman and Archbishop Burke, there is a hierarchy of evil which we as Catholics must adhere to and acknowledge the existence of such. Abortion is at its apex. To follow through logically with this belief, one would not support abortion even when voting, nor should we support a pro abort candidate. Now the Bernadin followers say, we can choose which issue is the most evil using our fallible subjective conscience instead of interpreting the teachings of the Magisterium in the way they should be clearly taught. Unfortunately these truths have not been emphasized by the progressive clergy here in the US and worldwide.

I believe the Pope has been pretty clear on where he stands with regards to Abortion. I suppose that some might want to pretend that they are allowed to vote for death for the greater good, but he is pretty clear about that too. I suppose they can find a Bishop that would agree with them, but it is not the Bishop of Rome…??

 

[elts1956]

I believe the Pope has been pretty clear on where he stands with regards to Abortion. I suppose that some might want to pretend that they are allowed to vote for death for the greater good, but he is pretty clear about that too. I suppose they can find a Bishop that would agree with them, but it is not the Bishop of Rome…??

You are right about that Lypher. The problem is some folks ignore Rome, that goes for the clergy also. We have a lot of progressive clergy here in the US who confuse people as to what they are conscience bound to obey. I don’t know when the confusion began, but it is strongly in the “system”.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The Bishop of Rome has not dictated to Catholics for whom they may and may not vote, except to reiterate the general, guiding Catholic principles. Quit misleading CAF posters with your unique theology, and attributing to posters on this thread actions, statements, motivations, and implying states of grace or ungrace that are not yours to know.

P.S. The term “baby-killers” when applied to voters or politicians or political parties, is prohibited according to forum rules. It doens’t matter what “the title of the thread is.” Own your words, and do not assign to others, words that were never theirs.

 

[Lypher]

The Bishop of Rome has not dictated to Catholics for whom they may and may not vote, except to reiterate the general, guiding Catholic principles. Quit misleading CAF posters with your unique theology, and attributing to posters on this thread actions, statements, motivations, and implying states of grace or ungrace that are not yours to know.

Technically correct…with a BIG BUT…
civilliberty.about.com/b/2007/05/12/pope-excommunication-for-pro-choice-politicians.htm
feministing.com/archives/007001.html
hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/05/pope_warns_proc.php
time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1619070,00.html
hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/05/pope_warns_proc.php

What I mean by technically correct is that the Pope said it is OK to vote for a Pro Choice candidate if the vote was NOT for that position and that the reason you voted for that person was to OFFSET a “proportionate” evil. That being said he did not define what he meant by Proportionate but many presume that it would be acceptable to vote Pro-Choice if the alternate candidate stood for something, such as Genocide that would kill as many or MORE innocent people then the Pro-Choice candidate. I don’t think we have come to that type of selection yet where we are voting on someone killing innocent people to either a GREATER then or EQUAL to number of Innocent fetuses, but it is POSSIBLE.

P.S. The term “baby-killers” when applied to voters or politicians or political parties, is prohibited according to forum rules. It doesn’t matter what “the title of the thread is.” Own your words, and do not assign to others, words that were never theirs.

I don’t know if you are accusing me of something or not??? What I will say is that if a person votes for someone that then votes to kill fetuses, that they have in fact voted for someone that has voted for killing fetuses… I do not believe that the forum rules require me to lie do they? Can you point me to the thread that says I have to lie please? The thread is asking a question as to if it is a sin if we Vote for a Pro-Abortion candidate. In my OPINION voting for someone that support killing is a SIN, becasue the CCC says we are responsible to have a well formed conscience and both the CCC and the Holy See says abortion is sinful. I am OWNING my words, that is how I would answer this thread. I am not trying to judge or convict anyone in particular, but rather EVERYBODY that votes that way. Just like we can say that those that Steal are breaking a commandment, or those that kill. The same as I would say that everybody that votes for a candidate that promises to raise property taxes have IN FACT voted to raise property taxes if their candidate wins knowing that he was GOING to vote for taxes. If you gave someone the keys to your car to drop off the mail and you KNEW he was going to rob a bank on the way to dropping off your mail. I am pretty certain how civil authorities would view your actions. We vote for people to REPRESENT us. That is what a Representative Democracy is. We are therefore responsible for the actions of those we put in office when they have told us in advance what they are going to do, until such time as we vote them out. We are not responsible if it is another candidate that wins or if our candidate lied and changes his position, at least not until the next election when we have the moral responsibility to vote them out… Is that what you mean by own? Maybe I am a little slow? I am trying to answer the questions, are you playing a gotcha game? I don’t understand what your intentions are I guess? Are you trying to convice CAF members that they are not responsible for the outcomes of their votes? Is that it? I am sorry like I said before I must be slow.

Take care,

 

[elts1956]

The Bishop of Rome has not dictated to Catholics for whom they may and may not vote, except to reiterate the general, guiding Catholic principles. Quit misleading CAF posters with your unique theology, and attributing to posters on this thread actions, statements, motivations, and implying states of grace or ungrace that are not yours to know.

P.S. The term “baby-killers” when applied to voters or politicians or political parties, is prohibited according to forum rules. It doens’t matter what “the title of the thread is.” Own your words, and do not assign to others, words that were never theirs.

I don’t know to whom you are addressing the above post. Of course the Bishop of Rome does not “dictate” anything. He prays that Catholics wil have formed their consciences in order with the teachngs of the Church. Christ didn’t dictate either, but he hoped for the best. I can’t say Catholics did their best in the past POTUS election. There is a division in what forms a correct Catholic conscience. Bernadin has caused much confusion in both clergy and laity.

 

[elts1956]

The Bishop of Rome has not dictated to Catholics for whom they may and may not vote, except to reiterate the general, guiding Catholic principles. Quit misleading CAF posters with your unique theology, and attributing to posters on this thread actions, statements, motivations, and implying states of grace or ungrace that are not yours to know.

P.S. The term “baby-killers” when applied to voters or politicians or political parties, is prohibited according to forum rules. It doens’t matter what “the title of the thread is.” Own your words, and do not assign to others, words that were never theirs.

P.S. The guidance of the Bishop of Rome is not “general”, but specific. Many refuse to believe that.

 

[Lypher]

I don’t know to whom you are addressing the above post. Of course the Bishop of Rome does not “dictate” anything. He prays that Catholics wil have formed their consciences in order with the teachngs of the Church. Christ didn’t dictate either, but he hoped for the best. I can’t say Catholics did their best in the past POTUS election. There is a division in what forms a correct Catholic conscience. Bernadin has caused much confusion in both clergy and laity.

 

[CPA2]

Let me repeat: Abortion is not about beliefs and passing judgment. Abortion is about violence and bloodshed. Abortion is about victims. Those victims need to be defended! Abortion is not a subject where we can be “broad-minded” and agree to disagree. Just because you do not recognize the victim as a person does not eliminate our responsibility to defend that victim. Abortion is injustice at its worse. We have to put an end to that injustice.

If the baby in the womb is not a baby, then you can just as well tell me that the moon is made of cheese. Is the moon made of cheese just because you believe it is made of cheese? Should we all decide for ourselves if the moon is made of cheese? Abortion is OK, if I say it is? If that is true, then the moon is made of cheese if I say it is.

We know when life begins and we know that the moon is not made up of cheese. Don’t we live in the days of modern medicine, fetoscopy and fetal surgery?

Your decisions do not determine reality. No one chooses this crazy weather we are having. It should be equally clear that no one can determine the moral value of a life. **The weak should be defended from the strong. **Period.

 

[CPA2]

“Do not forget that you are passing like a flower in a field, which is visible from afar but disappears in a moment (Our Lady Queen of Peace).” We too can die very quickly. Therefore, we should always leave behind signs of “goodness and love.” “…Do not be afraid because the one who prays is not afraid of evil and has no hatred in the heart (Our Lady Queen of Peace).”

 

[elts1956]

If Catholic were obliged to vote solely according to the issue of abortion, then they would so open to manipulation…
there are other things to take into consideration, not just abortion

Perhaps in other denominations this would be logical and moral thinking. However, it is not Catholic thinking as taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[elts1956]

If Catholic were obliged to vote solely according to the issue of abortion, then they would so open to manipulation…
there are other things to take into consideration, not just abortion

Well I don’t know about the states but where I live there wouldn’t b many candidates who would be anti-abortion, so it would amount to dictating whom you would vote for.
I disagree. If someone was anti-abortion but had immoral policies in everything else, I would most certainly not vote for them.

I suppose this is an example of why we need to keep on our toes regarding voting not only for Federal politicians, but all politicians.

 

[elts1956]

A Catholic Guide to Catholic Teaching and Voting

Many thanks for the links buffalo. I am Pro Life Chair of our Parish and the problem is, I probably wouldn’t be able to distribute this as it is not the USCCB’s statement on voting which is as clear as mud. I would so love to be able to hand this, or the one from CAF to our parishioners, but my hands are tied. I can give the website in the bulletin and that is about it.:sad_yes:

 

[elts1956]

A Catholic Guide to Catholic Teaching and Voting

Sounds a great way to stop Catholic voting!

…which doesn’t make any sense at all

Sad to say, some have a stronger moral base through being taught than others. I mean no insult, but when I look back over my Catholic education which was strong in moral issues, I see no comparison with the teachings of other denominations. The older I get, the more I see that what we claim, “The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth”, is the Truth.

 

[elts1956]

Sounds a great way to stop Catholic voting!

…which doesn’t make any sense at all

If ALL lives are not protected, including the unborn, how can there be “quality” of life for anyone? Who is to choose which of us shall live so another can have what they think is quality of life?

 

[elts1956]

Sounds a great way to stop Catholic voting!

…which doesn’t make any sense at all

Thanks for clarifying.

I still maintain that the policy is not that clear. You introduced the idea that policies on war have some weight. Do I, (if I was a Catholic voter) have to rely on the Church’s opinion of how a candidate stands on an issue of war? What if I, in my heart, fully believed that a pro-life candidate was going to start a deadly, UNJUST war. Wouldn’t that give me reason to vote against him? Thus, your “you can vote for him, but not him” may not be relevant. issues of Prudential Judgement. You may very well have one opinion and I another and both not be First of all one cannot tell the future. All one can do is look at s/his voting record on issues. Wars are issues of Prudential Judgement. You may have one opinion as to whether a war is just or not. I may have another. We could both be right, or wrong.

Put more simply: does the Church, and/or should the Church, issue a vote card that lists acceptable candidates?

The Church should not involve itself in politics. There are other organizations, such as National Right to Life which gives politicians’ votes on life issues. The Church does not. That tax exempt status you know.

 

[elts1956]

Very easily countered by asking what’s the point in being alive if you have no quality of life.

That is not for we frail humans to decide. There is only one final authority.