It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[elts1956]

Very easily countered by asking what’s the point in being alive if you have no quality of life.

No, my moral obligation is far wide than opposing abortion. I certainly don’t let YOU set my moral agenda.

We are not the final authority. We can only tell you what our Church teaches and what we believe. What you believe is your choice, for awhile.

Our moral obligations are at least as wide as yours. The difference is, we believe in a hierarchy of good and evil.

 

[elts1956]

I specifically asked my family priest about voting. He said, as you stated above, that if you vote for a candidate who is pro-choice because he is pro-choice, that is a sin. However, if you, looking at the whole picture, vote for a candidate because you believe this candidate is the best candidate to vote for, and he happens to be pro-choice, that is NOT a sin.

I have a responsibility to vote for the candidate who I best believe will serve my country well, not just Catholics, and that’s how I vote. My priest says there’s nothing sinful about that.

Your priest is a Seamless Garment theorist. Bernadin’s Seamless Garment theology has confused brighter people than me, but I understand that not all issues have equal levity. Abortion was the number one issue this past POTUS election. If one believes abortion is an Intrinsic Evil, one would not vote for a pro abortion candidate, much less the most pro abortion candidate we have ever had running for the highest governmental post in the US. Trust not your priest in ALL things. Look to Rome and the encyclicals.

Yes, we can catolog our conscience and vote the way that is most important to “us”. What effect will it have on “me” if I vote a certain way, but your priest is misguided and he did not direct you to the absolute evil of abortion. War, economics, environment, all can be solved in various ways, or perhaps not. They will pass. Other issues will arise. But those of life and death are here and now. Vote for life from conception to natural death. Please.

 

[elts1956]

I specifically asked my family priest about voting. He said, as you stated above, that if you vote for a candidate who is pro-choice because he is pro-choice, that is a sin. However, if you, looking at the whole picture, vote for a candidate because you believe this candidate is the best candidate to vote for, and he happens to be pro-choice, that is NOT a sin.

I have a responsibility to vote for the candidate who I best believe will serve my country well, not just Catholics, and that’s how I vote. My priest says there’s nothing sinful about that.

What your Priest told you is contray to what the Pope says and what Church teaches. Not one single member of the Magestrium, for instance, stated there were proportionate reasons that would allow a Catholic to vote for Obama. Since you obviously have an internet conection I suggest you research what the Church actually teaches and not depend on your Priest’s obviously flawed understading of Church teaching.

What has always puzzled me is why anyone would even need a priest or the Church to tell them that we shouldnt vote for people who support killing our children.

The sanctity of life at any stage is a law written on the heart. Paraphrased, but still true.

 

[elts1956]

My pastor is not pro-choice, he is anti-abortion. My pastor said it was not a sin to vote for your preferred candidate regardless of who else is running with that candidate, provided you are not voting with the intention of voting specifically for a pro-choice candidate. He explained that if you believe the candidate you choose is best for the country, and that candidate is pro-choice, you are not sinning by voting for him, and I not only believe his counsel is correct, I agree with it. The Church should not be telling citizens of a country how to vote. Give to Caesar what’s Caesar’s, give to God what’s God’s. When voting there are many considerations besides abortion, and they’re all important issues. And frankly, they are more important than abortions to me. People are going to have abortions, whether or not I agree with them. And they’re going to continue having them regardless of the President’s preferences. Therefore, why ignore all the important issues for this one issue that’s not going to matter one bit? This country has way too many non-Catholics in it to attempt to base laws on Catholic beliefs. We have a responsibilty to all here, not just the unborn.

I’m not sure what you’re asking in your second part. I am American, and I was born and raised Catholic. I went to a Catholic parochial school as a child, I went to a Catholic grammar school, a Catholic high school, a Catholic college and a Catholic university. However, I do realize that some traditional and conservative catholics think the unborn are the most important consideration. I, on the other hand, regard the living as important too, and that’s how I vote and with all due respect, it’s not likely to change just because someone on an online forum claims I have no right to vote with my conscience and common sense. Encyclicals are to be considered with an open mind and an open conscience, but they are not infallible statements that absolutely must be followed. And after sharing my beliefs regarding voting with my pastor, I’m more than convinced that you can safely vote for the candidate of your choice.

Many people less educated, less trained in Catholic theology than you or I, know that the bottom line is "Thou shalt not Kill, (especially the most vulnerable and innocent.) Neither should we support those pols. who promote it. Your education lost a thread somewhere along the way.

 

[elts1956]

My pastor is not pro-choice, he is anti-abortion. My pastor said it was not a sin to vote for your preferred candidate regardless of who else is running with that candidate, provided you are not voting with the intention of voting specifically for a pro-choice candidate. He explained that if you believe the candidate you choose is best for the country, and that candidate is pro-choice, you are not sinning by voting for him, and I not only believe his counsel is correct, I agree with it. The Church should not be telling citizens of a country how to vote. Give to Caesar what’s Caesar’s, give to God what’s God’s. When voting there are many considerations besides abortion, and they’re all important issues. And frankly, they are more important than abortions to me. People are going to have abortions, whether or not I agree with them. And they’re going to continue having them regardless of the President’s preferences. Therefore, why ignore all the important issues for this one issue that’s not going to matter one bit? This country has way too many non-Catholics in it to attempt to base laws on Catholic beliefs. We have a responsibilty to all here, not just the unborn.

I’m not sure what you’re asking in your second part. I am American, and I was born and raised Catholic. I went to a Catholic parochial school as a child, I went to a Catholic grammar school, a Catholic high school, a Catholic college and a Catholic university. However, I do realize that some traditional and conservative catholics think the unborn are the most important consideration. I, on the other hand, regard the living as important too, and that’s how I vote and with all due respect, it’s not likely to change just because someone on an online forum claims I have no right to vote with my conscience and common sense. Encyclicals are to be considered with an open mind and an open conscience, but they are not infallible statements that absolutely must be followed. And after sharing my beliefs regarding voting with my pastor, I’m more than convinced that you can safely vote for the candidate of your choice.

Yes, all truth, not just one issue! I’m not sure you can have a conscience of convenience?

Which “issue” was uppermost in your mind when you voted? Economics, war, environment? Which “one” issue. And don’t say all. Because “all” were not on the platform.

 

[elts1956]

Rence:
Repeating. Can you name one issue that trumped abortion in this past election?

 

[elts1956]

Rence:

I’m not implying anything about voting or not voting for pro-choice candidate. Why would I? It’s your choice to vote for the candidate that best reflects who you believe is the best candidate. You have to vote with YOUR conscience. If abortion is the only issue you want to vote regarding, then do so. What I have issue with is others telling other people how to vote. It’s just plain old coersion: either vote this way, or you’re not a good catholic, or you’re guilty of grave serious most unholy sin, yadda yadda. That’s not true: one can be a good catholic (or even pro-life) and still vote looking at the whole picture.

The Church doesn’t have to back up all of our opinions. We are not drones of the Church. We should always take into consideration with an open mind, clear conscience and open heart, what the Church teaches, but we have to use our own gift of reasoning as well.

There is no error in what the Archbishop said about what he felt was important. We all have to consider what is important to us, otherwise, what’s the point? Of which Archbishop are you speaking? Burke, Chaput? Bishops Finn, Herman, Martino?

I can only speak for myself too as to what’s important. For me, healthcare issues, education issues, war issues and financial issues that will affect civilians are more important. And of course, I weigh out all the issues with each candidate. I try to look at the whole picture. I’m not always happy after the election is over, sometimes I don’t like either candidate. But the choice is mine after considering information presented by each party.

This is called using subjective reasoning (conscience) as compared to objective reasoning which the Church does quite well. We are fallible. In truth and doctrine the Church is not. Abortion was the greatest evil on the Dem. platform that has ever existed. If with all your Catholic education you cannot perceive that, then as I said before, you dropped a thread somewhere. You as a Catholic, must have a belief, not an opinion in something as serious as life and death, especially of the most helpless and vulnerable.

 

[elts1956]

I’m not implying anything about voting or not voting for pro-choice candidate. Why would I? It’s your choice to vote for the candidate that best reflects who you believe is the best candidate. You have to vote with YOUR conscience. If abortion is the only issue you want to vote regarding, then do so. What I have issue with is others telling other people how to vote. It’s just plain old coersion: either vote this way, or you’re not a good catholic, or you’re guilty of grave serious most unholy sin, yadda yadda. That’s not true: one can be a good catholic (or even pro-life) and still vote looking at the whole picture.

The Church doesn’t have to back up all of our opinions.And neither can we change the laws of the Church. An opinion is just that, an opinion, no moral backup. We are not drones of the Church. We should always take into consideration with an open mind, clear conscience and open heart, what the Church teaches, but we have to use our own gift of reasoning as well.

There is no error in what the Archbishop said about what he felt was important. We all have to consider what is important to us, otherwise, what’s the point?

I can only speak for myself too as to what’s important. For me, healthcare issues, education issues, war issues and financial issues that will affect civilians are more important. And of course, I weigh out all the issues with each candidate. I try to look at the whole picture. I’m not always happy after the election is over, sometimes I don’t like either candidate. But the choice is mine after considering information presented by each party.

 

[elts1956]

I’m not implying anything about voting or not voting for pro-choice candidate. Why would I? It’s your choice to vote for the candidate that best reflects who you believe is the best candidate. You have to vote with YOUR conscience. If abortion is the only issue you want to vote regarding, then do so. What I have issue with is others telling other people how to vote. It’s just plain old coersion: either vote this way, or you’re not a good catholic, or you’re guilty of grave serious most unholy sin, yadda yadda. That’s not true: one can be a good catholic (or even pro-life) and still vote looking at the whole picture.

The Church doesn’t have to back up all of our opinions. We are not drones of the Church. We should always take into consideration with an open mind, clear conscience and open heart, what the Church teaches, but we have to use our own gift of reasoning as well.

There is no error in what the Archbishop said about what he felt was important. We all have to consider what is important to us, otherwise, what’s the point?

I can only speak for myself too as to what’s important. For me, healthcare issues, education issues, war issues and financial issues that will affect civilians are more important. And of course, I weigh out all the issues with each candidate. I try to look at the whole picture. I’m not always happy after the election is over, sometimes I don’t like either candidate. But the choice is mine after considering information presented by each party.

Spend time here, and follow what our Bishops instruct us. Ignore what heretical cafeterial Catholics tell you.

faithfulcitizenship.org/

Perhaps you, as a clear thinking, moral follow Rome Catholic, can understand the USCCB document. But I state, in no uncertain terms, this document, along with Bernadin’s Seamless Garment theory, has done great harm, causing much confusion to Catholics, especially those who think their finite judgement can preopt the teachings of the Church. This document allowed 56% of Catholics to vote for the most pro abort POTUS we have ever had.

 

[elts1956]

Rence;6509367:

My pastor is not pro-choice, he is anti-abortion. My pastor said it was not a sin to vote for your preferred candidate regardless of who else is running with that candidate, provided you are not voting with the intention of voting specifically for a pro-choice candidate. He explained that if you believe the candidate you choose is best for the country, and that candidate is pro-choice, you are not sinning by voting for him, and I not only believe his counsel is correct, I agree with it. The Church should not be telling citizens of a country how to vote. Give to Caesar what’s Caesar’s, give to God what’s God’s. When voting there are many considerations besides abortion, and they’re all important issues. And frankly, they are more important than abortions to me. People are going to have abortions, whether or not I agree with them. And they’re going to continue having them regardless of the President’s preferences. Therefore, why ignore all the important issues for this one issue that’s not going to matter one bit? This country has way too many non-Catholics in it to attempt to base laws on Catholic beliefs. We have a responsibilty to all here, not just the unborn.

QUOTE]

There is no issue more important than abortion. We will be brought back to reason thought chastisements. Some of the chastisements will be brought about by own hand, some by nature and some by the power of God. The power of evil will be broken!

“My children, I have come to earth for you, to open your hearts for God. My son, look around you: the world is full of sin, many of your brothers and sisters have been killed through abortion and God does not want this because they are His creatures. For these people He has reserved many punishments. (The Blessed Virgin Mary to Bacco Umberto, Oliveto Citra, Italy, August 6, 1986)”

Not to be overly picky, but is this an approved appearance by the Vatican. I haven’t heard of this one. Thanks. Whether it is approved, or not, I do believe what she says.

 

[elts1956]

Rence;6509367:

My pastor is not pro-choice, he is anti-abortion. My pastor said it was not a sin to vote for your preferred candidate regardless of who else is running with that candidate, provided you are not voting with the intention of voting specifically for a pro-choice candidate. He explained that if you believe the candidate you choose is best for the country, and that candidate is pro-choice, you are not sinning by voting for him, and I not only believe his counsel is correct, I agree with it. The Church should not be telling citizens of a country how to vote. Give to Caesar what’s Caesar’s, give to God what’s God’s. When voting there are many considerations besides abortion, and they’re all important issues. And frankly, they are more important than abortions to me. People are going to have abortions, whether or not I agree with them. And they’re going to continue having them regardless of the President’s preferences. Therefore, why ignore all the important issues for this one issue that’s not going to matter one bit? This country has way too many non-Catholics in it to attempt to base laws on Catholic beliefs. We have a responsibilty to all here, not just the unborn.

QUOTE]

There is no issue more important than abortion. We will be brought back to reason thought chastisements. Some of the chastisements will be brought about by own hand, some by nature and some by the power of God. The power of evil will be broken!

“My children, I have come to earth for you, to open your hearts for God. My son, look around you: the world is full of sin, many of your brothers and sisters have been killed through abortion and God does not want this because they are His creatures. For these people He has reserved many punishments. (The Blessed Virgin Mary to Bacco Umberto, Oliveto Citra, Italy, August 6, 1986)”

Moral Relativism

“Modern man has become passive in the face of evil. He has so long preached a doctrine of false tolerance; has so long believed that right and wrong were only differences in a point of view, that now when evil works itself out in practice he is paralyzed to do anything against it (Sheen).”

Morality (Western Bourgeois)

In the domain of morality, is it not an accepted principle of our Western bourgeois world that there is no absolute distinction between right and wrong rooted in the eternal order of God, but that they are relative and dependent entirely upon one’s point of view? Hence when the Western world wishes to decide what is right and wrong even in certain moral matters, it takes a poll – forgetful that the majority never makes a thing right….The first poll of public opinion taken in history of Christianity was on Pilate’s front porch, and it was wrong

(Sheen).”

Great!

 

[elts1956]

This argument does not make sense in a democracy where there are only two parties and each candidate will have some policies that agree with the church and some policies that do not.

EX. Bush was pro life but he started two wars and allowed the torture of detainees. If I had a pro-choice candidate who would not fight the two wars or torture detainees, then I would surely vote for them.

Don’t know if you are Catholic, or not, but start reading these posts from the beginning, then try the encyclicals of the Popes, especially Pope John Paul II Evangelium Vitae.

 

[elts1956]

This argument does not make sense in a democracy where there are only two parties and each candidate will have some policies that agree with the church and some policies that do not.

EX. Bush was pro life but he started two wars and allowed the torture of detainees. If I had a pro-choice candidate who would not fight the two wars or torture detainees, then I would surely vote for them.

Well, as an Iraqi I would rather save the hundred thousand or so of my countrymen that have died, including relatives, rather than any amount of abortions.

However, I supported the Iraq war initially and have found myself asking forgiveness to God everyday for the mistake of trusting the previous administration.

CPA2 - yep, that’s right, anyone who doesn’t agree with you or kage_ar must be a moral relativist! Yes, we are truly in Stalinist Russia:thumbsup:
No one could possibly disagree with you in good conscience, could they?

You can disagree all you want. Doesn’t mean you’re right.

 

[elts1956]

“If we do not soon stop the genocide of abortion in the United States, we shall run the course of all those that prove by their actions that they are enemies of God – total collapse, economic, social, and national. The moral demise of a nation results in the ultimate demise of a nation. God is not a disinterested spectator to the affairs of man. Life begins at conception. This is an unalterable teaching of the Catholic Church. If you do not accept this you are a heretic in plain English. A single abortion is homicide.”

“No other issue, not all other issues taken together, can constitute a proportionate reason for voting for candidates that intend to preserve and defend this holocaust of innocent human life that is abortion (Father John Corapi).”

If one is not Catholic, one is not a heretic, just reeeeeeeeeeely misguided and wrong.

 

[elts1956]

“If we do not soon stop the genocide of abortion in the United States, we shall run the course of all those that prove by their actions that they are enemies of God – total collapse, economic, social, and national. The moral demise of a nation results in the ultimate demise of a nation. God is not a disinterested spectator to the affairs of man. Life begins at conception. This is an unalterable teaching of the Catholic Church. If you do not accept this you are a heretic in plain English. A single abortion is homicide.”

“No other issue, not all other issues taken together, can constitute a proportionate reason for voting for candidates that intend to preserve and defend this holocaust of innocent human life that is abortion (Father John Corapi).”

Sorry, but that’s a ludicrous position to take. Voting sensibly make you an executioner? Please
I don’t accept your nonsensical straw man argument at all.

It’s called voting with a good Catholic conscience. To us that is sensible, materially and spiritually. Please do not demean our Faith, beliefs and morals just because your “sensible” brain says we are wrong.

 

[elts1956]

The slaughter of the innocents refers to something else. The Church backing you up is not an argument, but an appeal to authority.

I don’t believe that one issue would decide how I vote full stop, although I couldn’t rule it out. A vote for a representative in the legislature is not like a vote in a referendum is it?

As it happens I tend to vote for CPA, which is pro-life, so my voting record is probably more pro-life than most Catholics in the UK.

Ever heard of Dante’s Inferno? I have an it scares the h…l out of me.

 

[elts1956]

The slaughter of the innocents refers to something else. The Church backing you up is not an argument, but an appeal to authority.

I don’t believe that one issue would decide how I vote full stop, although I couldn’t rule it out. A vote for a representative in the legislature is not like a vote in a referendum is it?

As it happens I tend to vote for CPA, which is pro-life, so my voting record is probably more pro-life than most Catholics in the UK.

May I please ask a question? Is it the Church that says abortion causes far more carnage that killing all 7 year olds, or is that your opinion/interpretation? I just like to know please, if that is a Catholic teaching or yours.

I know that some people on this forum have said that abortion was far worse a sin that rape, but I really need to have this clearly understood: does the Church find abortion more sinful that killing all 7 year olds?

Is that really a legitimate question? I am not being sarcastic, just amazed. Killing “anyone” without reason ie. self defense and even then I question it, is wrong. There are stages to the life of a child, zygote, fetous, embryo, baby, toddler, pre schooler, 5 year old, 6, 7 etc. At what stage is it moral not to protect, to kill any of these?

 

[elts1956]

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/this_thread_again.jpg

Must be an important topic.

 

[elts1956]

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/this_thread_again.jpg

Getting to the original post: I believe that it is possible to be both pro-choice and pro-life.

I am pro-choice in the sense that, even though I think abortion i wrong, I agree with the Supreme Court that the state has no right to prohibit women from having abortion. I believe it is too great an intrusion into a woman’s right over her body to criminalize abortion.

On the other hand- abortion is wrong and we should do a much as we can to PERSUADE (not force) women to protect the child and let it live.

So I do not believe it is a sin to vote for someone who is against criminalizing abortion.

You are soooooooooo confused. Another Catholic bites the dust and becomes???/

 

[elts1956]

Sorry if this is off track, but it is related.

Are there any California Catholics out there as confused as me on these candidates for California Governor?

As far as I can tell, all candidates, Democrat (Brown) and Republican (Poizner and Whitman) have views on abortion that are not in line with the Catholic Church.

Brown and Whitman appear to be the worst. Poizner might be the least offensive to Catholic teaching, but he has dramatically flip-flopped. This could mean he lacks conviction on this issue and will flip-flop again.

My wife and I believe we may be committing a sin by voting for any of them. We are considering not voting at all, believing that their views disqualify them as candidates.

Check his voting record. Then see if he is palatable. I would possibly choose a third party candidate, or not vote. But if the election is tight, we are to vote for the candidate that will possibly prevent the spread, or the “greater” spread of abortion. Yuck, what a dilemma!