It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[elts1956]

Sorry if this is off track, but it is related.

Are there any California Catholics out there as confused as me on these candidates for California Governor?

As far as I can tell, all candidates, Democrat (Brown) and Republican (Poizner and Whitman) have views on abortion that are not in line with the Catholic Church.

Brown and Whitman appear to be the worst. Poizner might be the least offensive to Catholic teaching, but he has dramatically flip-flopped. This could mean he lacks conviction on this issue and will flip-flop again.

My wife and I believe we may be committing a sin by voting for any of them. We are considering not voting at all, believing that their views disqualify them as candidates.

Give me a break, You obviously have not clue of how the American legal system works. American law must promote multiple policies simultaneously in order for a free society to function. One of the policies, in addition to trying to protect life, is the policy of limited government.

The govt does not get to make every decision in this society and it can use other means other than the police power (criminalizing all abortions) to help women make better decisions in the matter of the early fetus. Late term abortion, funding of abortion is one thing, But the decision of the women in regards to the early fetus is something that arguable should be protected to promote limited govt.

The Church has no rubric of authority on matters of American civil law, only on essential matters of faith and morals. Moreover, to hold your position effectively means one cannot be Catholic and support the two party system—which is essential to this democracy.

The Church is way out of line on asserting its authority on the legal aspect of abortion----it absolutely should speak out against it from a moral viewpoint of course.

The Church is getting way too political on this issue and the media is now playing hardball on the abuse problem as payback. Talk about the moral issue not the legal issue.

Hey, got to keep the debate up.

And you are??? NO!!! Catholic???

 

[elts1956]

“Before I answer your questions I need to educate you about the butchery of abortion. How can you say that snuffing out 50,000,000 lives is “nonexistent” suffering. Never mind the psychological trauma of mothers and fathers who have consented to the extermination of their children. You have bought the lies of the pro-death lobby.”

Sorry, but again you ignore my questions.
I haven’t bought any lies, I am a human person with experience in suffering and I know what I’m talking about. The problem is not with calling abortion a bad thing, it is with making it the summum of all evil and a non-negotiable. What I’ve been saying is simply common sense and cannot be dismissed by slogans like butchery, extermination etc. It only cheapens the suffering of war victims by equating it with “suffering” of yet unformed fetuses or stem cells.

Do you KNOW without a doubt when the baby (zygote, foetus etc.) is developed enough to feel pain? If not, then I suggest you go to Priests for Life website and view some of the non-butchery.

 

[elts1956]

“Before I answer your questions I need to educate you about the butchery of abortion. How can you say that snuffing out 50,000,000 lives is “nonexistent” suffering. Never mind the psychological trauma of mothers and fathers who have consented to the extermination of their children. You have bought the lies of the pro-death lobby.”

Sorry, but again you ignore my questions.
I haven’t bought any lies, I am a human person with experience in suffering and I know what I’m talking about. The problem is not with calling abortion a bad thing, it is with making it the summum of all evil and a non-negotiable. What I’ve been saying is simply common sense and cannot be dismissed by slogans like butchery, extermination etc. It only cheapens the suffering of war victims by equating it with “suffering” of yet unformed fetuses or stem cells.

“I hate to break it to you, but wars can be justified. Your problem is that you do not accept that the unborn are actually PEOPLE. Until you accept that simple fact, you will be accepting of the lies of the pro-death lobby.”

Again, no answers and just buzz words. And also 2 people in a body? Math is not right, one has to yield.

And so you and your Mother were cojoined when you were born? Amazing. More secular babble.

 

[elts1956]

I have some questions:

Where do we get the 50 million number? At what stage of life where these fetuse aborted? I mean are we talking about chemical abortions in the first week or are we talking about a third trimester child.

I cannot buy the argument that a fertilized egg automatically becomes a full human with all the right of personhood. Should there not be a requirement for a certain level of brain development, or at least the appearance of brain cells, or even the differentiation of cells?

But on to the point of this post: I would vote for Obama over the ridiculously incompetent team of Palin-McCain any day. Just the thought of Palin having the chance to become president ends shivers down my spine. I voted Conservative in the Canadian elections, but I cannot believe that the most powerfull country in the world would vote for a know-nothing like Palin.

In my opinion, one should consider all the circumstances and views of a politician before voting. Not just hang up on the issue of abortion.

Humanity and “personhood” with all legal secular rights are not synominous. “Humanhood” is the basis on which “personhood” is later built.

 

[elts1956]

I have some questions:

Where do we get the 50 million number? At what stage of life where these fetuse aborted? I mean are we talking about chemical abortions in the first week or are we talking about a third trimester child.

I cannot buy the argument that a fertilized egg automatically becomes a full human with all the right of personhood. Should there not be a requirement for a certain level of brain development, or at least the appearance of brain cells, or even the differentiation of cells?

But on to the point of this post: I would vote for Obama over the ridiculously incompetent team of Palin-McCain any day. Just the thought of Palin having the chance to become president ends shivers down my spine. I voted Conservative in the Canadian elections, but I cannot believe that the most powerfull country in the world would vote for a know-nothing like Palin.

In my opinion, one should consider all the circumstances and views of a politician before voting. Not just hang up on the issue of abortion.

You indicated faith and politics cannot be separated. Look, no one said the Church should not speak out morally against abortion, as should ever catholic. But that does not mean a catholic must support a complete govt take over in this area using its police power or otherwise he/she is excluded from the Church.

I take it, you are not Catholic. I mean it as no disrespect, but, I can however, understand your fear and misunderstanding if you think it is the intent of the Catholic Church to take over secular government. After all, when John Kennedy was elected as the first Catholic POTUS, the fears of takeover of the government by the Vatican were extreme. The days of the intermix of secular and spiritual power of the Church were long gone then and hopefully will never come again.

 

[elts1956]

I have some questions:

Where do we get the 50 million number? At what stage of life where these fetuse aborted? I mean are we talking about chemical abortions in the first week or are we talking about a third trimester child.

I cannot buy the argument that a fertilized egg automatically becomes a full human with all the right of personhood. Should there not be a requirement for a certain level of brain development, or at least the appearance of brain cells, or even the differentiation of cells?

But on to the point of this post: I would vote for Obama over the ridiculously incompetent team of Palin-McCain any day. Just the thought of Palin having the chance to become president ends shivers down my spine. I voted Conservative in the Canadian elections, but I cannot believe that the most powerfull country in the world would vote for a know-nothing like Palin.

In my opinion, one should consider all the circumstances and views of a politician before voting. Not just hang up on the issue of abortion.

You indicated faith and politics cannot be separated. Look, no one said the Church should not speak out morally against abortion, as should ever catholic. But that does not mean a catholic must support a complete govt take over in this area using its police power or otherwise he/she is excluded from the Church.

Please don’t lie. He certainly isn’t advocating making abortion illegal, but that does not mean he thinks it is a good thing. See here:
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08101601.html

Obama himself says:
But there surely is some common ground when both those who believe in choice and those who are opposed to abortion can come together and say, "We should try to prevent unintended pregnancies by providing appropriate education to our youth, communicating that sexuality is sacred and that they should not be engaged in cavalier activity, and providing options for adoption, and helping single mothers if they want to choose to keep the baby.
…
Those are all things that we put in the Democratic platform for the first time this year, and I think that’s where we can find some common ground, because nobody’s pro-abortion. I think it’s always a tragic situation.

There is no “common” ground with bo’s abortion agenda. Have you ever wondered why bo has rescinded protective laws for the unborn, has increased our tax dollars to support abotion laws in foreign countries. Isn’t there a better way to decrease abortions, such as taking those abortion dollars given to Planned Parenthood to Pro Life clinics who will take these women, help them and their children and set them on the path to life? I shudder to think of what is in store for the US and its citizens who have not done all humanly possible to protect the unborn. Shame on us. Great and grevious shame.

 

[elts1956]

I have some questions:

Where do we get the 50 million number? At what stage of life where these fetuse aborted? I mean are we talking about chemical abortions in the first week or are we talking about a third trimester child.

I cannot buy the argument that a fertilized egg automatically becomes a full human with all the right of personhood. Should there not be a requirement for a certain level of brain development, or at least the appearance of brain cells, or even the differentiation of cells?

But on to the point of this post: I would vote for Obama over the ridiculously incompetent team of Palin-McCain any day. Just the thought of Palin having the chance to become president ends shivers down my spine. I voted Conservative in the Canadian elections, but I cannot believe that the most powerfull country in the world would vote for a know-nothing like Palin.

In my opinion, one should consider all the circumstances and views of a politician before voting. Not just hang up on the issue of abortion.

You indicated faith and politics cannot be separated. Look, no one said the Church should not speak out morally against abortion, as should ever catholic. But that does not mean a catholic must support a complete govt take over in this area using its police power or otherwise he/she is excluded from the Church.

Please don’t lie. He certainly isn’t advocating making abortion illegal, but that does not mean he thinks it is a good thing. See here:
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08101601.html

Obama himself says:
But there surely is some common ground when both those who believe in choice and those who are opposed to abortion can come together and say, "We should try to prevent unintended pregnancies by providing appropriate education to our youth, communicating that sexuality is sacred and that they should not be engaged in cavalier activity, and providing options for adoption, and helping single mothers if they want to choose to keep the baby.
…
Those are all things that we put in the Democratic platform for the first time this year, and I think that’s where we can find some common ground, because nobody’s pro-abortion. I think it’s always a tragic situation.

No, you are wrong. The Church can talk all it wants on civil law but it has no teaching authority. Who founded this country CW? Was it the Church? No it was not.

And what is interesting the Church claims no such authority, only authority on essential matters of faith and morals—or did you miss that CW?

More to the point, specifically speaking, the Church has always taught on matters of Civil law TO ITS FOLLOWERS, if they listen.

 

[elts1956]

I think you’re right about that: I agree that when a valid pro-life candidate is an option, that you should vote for the valid pro-life candidate. However, valid doesnt’ just mean a true pro-lifer, because we’re also voting for a valid leader of this country. So have a valid leader who shows promise in leading the country who is pro-life and I’m sure many pro-lifers and pro-choicers would vote for that person.

It’s unacceptable to tell someone that they have to vote for Palin because she is pro-life. If one believe that woman would destroy the country, one is not going to vote for her no matter how she feels about abortion. I can’t even take someone seriously who makes the claim that I must vote for Palin if the other candidate is pro-choice, when that candidate shows that he would be better than Palin.

So, vote with your conscience, whichever way you vote. That’s the only thing we can do.

Conscience? or opinion again?? One can become very confused because emotions come in to play. And to tell the truth, although I am Pro Life Anti abortion from head to toe, I don’t think I could vote for Palin either. But then neither could I vote for a pro choice, pro abort candidate.

 

[elts1956]

I think you’re right about that: I agree that when a valid pro-life candidate is an option, that you should vote for the valid pro-life candidate. However, valid doesnt’ just mean a true pro-lifer, because we’re also voting for a valid leader of this country. So have a valid leader who shows promise in leading the country who is pro-life and I’m sure many pro-lifers and pro-choicers would vote for that person.

It’s unacceptable to tell someone that they have to vote for Palin because she is pro-life. If one believe that woman would destroy the country, one is not going to vote for her no matter how she feels about abortion. I can’t even take someone seriously who makes the claim that I must vote for Palin if the other candidate is pro-choice, when that candidate shows that he would be better than Palin.

So, vote with your conscience, whichever way you vote. That’s the only thing we can do.

Blessings to those who see it is a sin to vote for pro-abortion candidates.

Even more blessing to those who see that neither one of the most recent candidates where stating that they would reverse the bill on abortion. And we were to choose which candidate we thought would be the most likely to support pro-life. Life being the number one concern for Catholics.

It sure is sounding like this is becoming more about Republican vs Democratic than “it is a sin to vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates?”

I was already to vote for McCain, but kept seeing sinful actions by others stating all the reasons why Obama was for abortion. Something in me said “red flag”, I need to really take all my bias out of this and I researched everything and found Obama would do more for pro-life than McCain.

I know you are looking for the facts on this~ which you could read~ but people that bark negatives about this with such high extreme’s won’t read to “hear both sides”.

Many people are doing the barking on this and it is hurting our churches. This is sad and sinful.

Sorry Donna Jean. Allowing over a million babies a year to die, rescinding protective laws, is NOT Pro Life. There is a hierarchy of evils and abortion was the most evil issue on the agendain the last POTUS election. You are wrong.

 

[elts1956]

Who is talking about an indvidual Catholic not following Church teachings. This is about what the govt is doing not the individual.

And yes a civil democracy does matter----because it is this govt that protects your freedom to practice your faith.

Several individuals doth make a group, several groups doth make someone to pay attention to.

 

[elts1956]

Who is talking about an indvidual Catholic not following Church teachings. This is about what the govt is doing not the individual.

And yes a civil democracy does matter----because it is this govt that protects your freedom to practice your faith.

Some of the members of this forum are saying that one is excommunicated if they don’t vote for the politician that the Church tells one to. My priest says that’s false. My priest says that one has the right to choose the candidate they believe is best for the job, and that the Church suggests/recommends Catholics vote for a prolife candidate, but allows Catholics to use their conscience when voting. This is a big difference.

Green Peace and Doctors without Borders don’t coerce people into voting for the candidates of their choice. And even if they tried to do so, they couldn’t “excommunicate” people who don’t vote the way GP and DwB tells them to vote.

PETA is a bogus association with off-the-deep-end supporters who eventually drop them when they realize how over-the-top PETA is. Though I understand your analogy, you have to admit that being expelled from PETA won’t be skin off too many people’s nose. There is no comparison between PETA and the Church.

Remember that Ms. Pelosi met with the Pope himself and is still in good standing with the Church. Her status as a Catholic is really between her and the Pope, and even her Bishop. Also consider, she represents all Americans, which comprise many different religions and creeds, not just Catholics. By voting with Catholic rules and regulations as her sole guide, she will be betraying the rest of the U.S. population for whom she is responsible for representing. I understand your disappointment in Ms. Pelosi, but she represents everyone, not just Catholics…

Lord, Lord!! Let me not take Your Name in vain. But this is unbelievable! Pelosi a CATHOLIC? in good standing? Just because her Bishop doesn’t have the guts to excomminicate her, doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve it. Has she publically repented of her pro abortion status? She has excommunicated herself. Your thinking aligns itself with Kennedy speak. How to support an evil and still have a “clear” conscience. Several theologians and Jesuits, who are no longer priests taught them that. They were good teachers. Kennedy, Pelosi, Kerry, Biden and all other Pro abort (meaning not protecting life from conception to natural death) have salved their consciences by listening to such dribble. As was asked before, Are you American Catholic, or Catholic American. Which is the most important to you for the sake of you eternal salvation?

 

[elts1956]

Cool. I’m glad they would never tell me who to vote for. All I want is the freedom to excercise my right to vote without coersion and I don’t think that’s too much to ask

Didn’t read it did ya?

 

[elts1956]

Cool. I’m glad they would never tell me who to vote for. All I want is the freedom to excercise my right to vote without coersion and I don’t think that’s too much to ask

A new film has been made about the abortion industry
BLOOD MONEY
PLEASE HELP PROMOTE IT BY FORWARDING TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS!

Dear friends :
The following link is to a new independent film which needs our support to
expose the corruption of Planned Parenthood. The movie is called Blood Money
and in order for the producers to get it into the theaters they need to show
that millions of interested people have visited their website. You need only
visit the website; there is no need to sign-up as a supporter unless you are
compelled to do so. The second link is the trailer for the movie. PLEASE
HELP GET THIS IMPORTANT FILM INTO THEATERS BY VISITING THE WEBSITE, then
forward this to your family and friends! Americans NEED to see this…

bloodmoneyfilm.com/

God bless you!

I understand the opening of this movie has been delayed due to pressure from guess who, our friends in Planned Parenthood which gets a big bunch of our tax dollars.

 

[elts1956]

AC still didn’t say you can’t vote for the guy.

Also, see my post on “burden of proof” (i.e., it’s yours, not mine)

Also, see:

vox-nova.com/2007/05/23/can-catholics-vote-for-pro-abortion-politicians/

and

answerbag.com/debates/catholics-vote-pro-choice-politicians-_1855513

and

bustedhalo.com/questionbox/abortion-should-catholics-who-vote-for-pro-choice-politicians-receive-communion/
“Archbishop Vlazny of Oregon offered these thoughts in the Portland Catholic Sentinel: “If they vote for pro-choice politicians precisely because they are pro-choice, I believe they, too, should refrain from the reception of Holy Communion because they are not in communion with the church on a serious matter. But if they are voting for that particular politician because, in their judgment, other candidates fail significantly in some matters of great importance, for example, war and peace, human rights and economic justice, then there is no evident stance of opposition to church teaching and reception of Holy Communion seems both appropriate and beneficial. Catholics who support pro-choice politicians still have serious responsibilities with regard to their stance on this matter. They must make it very clear to these politicians and governmental leaders that their support is in no way based on the pro-choice advocacy of these political leaders.””

Yeah right. What are voters supposed to do walk up to the pols. and say, "Hey, you guys, I don’t like your pro choice/pro abortion platform, but I like what you promise about economics etc. I am sure that would really make a difference in their pro death agenda. Some guidance this guy gave. Another Seamles Garment promoter. Can’t anyone see how this philosophy opens the way to anyone voting anyway they want at anytime no matter the hierarchy of evil that is quite blatently apparent, or should be if people would only THINK!!! I am greatly disappointed in Vlazny. I thought he was one of the good guys. What a bunch of pap.

Anyone know this misguided fellow’s history? Other than being able to mislead??

 

[elts1956]

AC still didn’t say you can’t vote for the guy.

Also, see my post on “burden of proof” (i.e., it’s yours, not mine)

Also, see:

vox-nova.com/2007/05/23/can-catholics-vote-for-pro-abortion-politicians/

and

answerbag.com/debates/catholics-vote-pro-choice-politicians-_1855513

and

bustedhalo.com/questionbox/abortion-should-catholics-who-vote-for-pro-choice-politicians-receive-communion/
“Archbishop Vlazny of Oregon offered these thoughts in the Portland Catholic Sentinel: “If they vote for pro-choice politicians precisely because they are pro-choice, I believe they, too, should refrain from the reception of Holy Communion because they are not in communion with the church on a serious matter. But if they are voting for that particular politician because, in their judgment, other candidates fail significantly in some matters of great importance, for example, war and peace, human rights and economic justice, then there is no evident stance of opposition to church teaching and reception of Holy Communion seems both appropriate and beneficial. Catholics who support pro-choice politicians still have serious responsibilities with regard to their stance on this matter. They must make it very clear to these politicians and governmental leaders that their support is in no way based on the pro-choice advocacy of these political leaders.””

Again, post #414 is non-responsive and illogical.

The only thing that “doesn’t end well” is for anyone on CAF to assume, and then post publicly, that he or she knows the motivations, ballot choices, conscience, and voting behavior of any particular Catholic voter. You do not. You are not to invade the conscience of any other Catholic, because that is forbidden by the Catholic Church, and in fact such judgments are mortally sinful. The individual Catholic is accountable to the teachings of the Church and the choices available to that Catholic; he or she is not accountable to you or to any other non-expert, non-authority on CAF without the ability to discern. You are not anyone’s confessor unless you are clergy, and no clergy on CAF has ever, in the time I have been on this forum, made statements from afar about the purity of anyone’s conscience as judged from forum postings. No well-trained Catholic priest would ever do that; he knows much better because he knows that without speaking to such a layperson, judgment is not possible and very likely inaccurate.

You’re responsible for your conscience, not mine or anyone else’s. The saints were not focused on other people’s consciences but their own consciences and behavior and sinfulness.

Even we poor peon laity are obliged to correct incorrectness when we see or hear it. Admonish and teach the ignorant. I think that is allowed. Am I not my brother/sisters keeper when I see them in error?

 

[elts1956]

Here is Archbishop Chaput’s(a member of the magestrium) comments on the 2008 election

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=30135

Can you tell us where he got it wrong? Bishop Finn of Dallas made similar comments-as did 60 other Bishops.

Estes, I have some of the documents these fine men, such as Chaput, Finn, Burke, Herman etc. made. Do you have a link for all 60 statements?

 

[elts1956]

Here is Archbishop Chaput’s(a member of the magestrium) comments on the 2008 election

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=30135

Can you tell us where he got it wrong? Bishop Finn of Dallas made similar comments-as did 60 other Bishops.

Estesbob, thank you for pointing out that article to me. I read it and appreciate this most out of it:

• "… we each have a duty to study and grow in our faith, guided by the teaching of the Church. It also means that we have a duty to be politically engaged. Why? Because politics is the exercise of power, and the use of power always has moral content and human consequences.

As Christians, we can’t claim to love God and then ignore the needs of our neighbors. Loving God is like loving a spouse. A husband may tell his wife that he loves her, and of course that’s very beautiful. But she’ll still want to see the evidence in his actions. Likewise if we claim to be ‘‘Catholic,’’ we need to prove it by our behavior. And serving other people by working for justice and charity in our nation’s political life is one of the very important ways we do that.
*

When voting, or lobbying, or writing letters to my senators and representatives regarding political issues, including bills, it is most important to “me” to consider the needs of my neighbors, all of them. No you are not considering the most vulnerable “neighbor”, the unborn. Out of sight, out of mind.This encompasses a wide variety of issues. All of them are important issues to “me”. No candidate is going to address all of the issues that I consider important, in the way I believe it is important, and they may even conflict with what “I consider importan.But"I” weigh the pros and cons of each, and weigh them against each other. If “I”" see that a candidate is going to do good in some area that is important to me, but is useless in another area that is "important to me"I have to consider what that candidate can and cannot do and where he or she will be most effective.

for me?

With all your I s and me s, no wonder there is no room for church doctrine.

Did you forget to read this part?
“Speaking for myself, I do not know any proportionate reason that could outweigh more than 40 million unborn children killed by abortion and the many millions of women deeply wounded by the loss and regret abortion creates.To suggest - as some Catholics do - that Senator Obama is this year’s ‘‘real’’ prolife candidate requires a peculiar kind of self-hypnosis, or moral confusion, or worse. To portray the 2008 Democratic Party presidential ticket as the preferred ‘‘prolife’’ option is to subvert what the word ‘‘prolife’’ means. Anyone interested in Senator Obama’s record on abortion and related issues should simply read Prof. Robert P. George’s Public Discourse essay from earlier this week, ‘‘Obama’s Abortion Extremism,’’ and his follow-up article, ‘‘Obama and Infanticide.’’ They say everything that needs to be said.”

This is a statement from an Archbishop of the Church. But then he probably isn’t saying what you want to hear.

 

[elts1956]

Here is Archbishop Chaput’s(a member of the magestrium) comments on the 2008 election

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=30135

Can you tell us where he got it wrong? Bishop Finn of Dallas made similar comments-as did 60 other Bishops.

Estesbob, thank you for pointing out that article to me. I read it and appreciate this most out of it:

• "… we each have a duty to study and grow in our faith, guided by the teaching of the Church. It also means that we have a duty to be politically engaged. Why? Because politics is the exercise of power, and the use of power always has moral content and human consequences.

As Christians, we can’t claim to love God and then ignore the needs of our neighbors. Loving God is like loving a spouse. A husband may tell his wife that he loves her, and of course that’s very beautiful. But she’ll still want to see the evidence in his actions. Likewise if we claim to be ‘‘Catholic,’’ we need to prove it by our behavior. And serving other people by working for justice and charity in our nation’s political life is one of the very important ways we do that.
*

When voting, or lobbying, or writing letters to my senators and representatives regarding political issues, including bills, it is most important to me to consider the needs of my neighbors, all of them. This encompasses a wide variety of issues. All of them are important issues to me. No candidate is going to address all of the issues that I consider important, in the way I believe it is important, and they may even conflict with what I consider important. But I weigh the pros and cons of each, and weigh them against each other. If I see that a candidate is going to do good in some area that is important to me, but is useless in another area that is important to me, I have to consider what that candidate can and cannot do and where he or she will be most effective.

Voting for those who are pawns of the corrupt bankers, rapacious moneyed interests, devastaters of God’s green earth, and oppressors of the poor and laborers also has moral consequences. Since you brought up the “writing on the wall” here’s a poem you might enjoy:

"The Run Upon the Bankers", by Jonathan Swift

*The bold encroachers on the deep Gain by degrees huge tracts of land, Till Neptune, with one general sweep, Turns all again to barren strand.

The multitude’s capricious pranks Are said to represent the seas, Breaking the bankers and the banks, Resume their own whene’er they please.

Money, the life-blood of the nation, Corrupts and stagnates in the veins, Unless a proper circulation Its motion and its heat maintains.

Because 'tis lordly not to pay, Quakers and aldermen in state, Like peers, have levees every day Of duns attending at their gate.

We want our money on the nail; The banker’s ruin’d if he pays: They seem to act an ancient tale; The birds are met to strip the jays.

“Riches,” the wisest monarch sings, “Make pinions for themselves to fly;” They fly like bats on parchment wings, And geese their silver plumes supply.

No money left for squandering heirs! Bills turn the lenders into debtors: The wish of Nero now is theirs, “That they had never known their letters.”

Conceive the works of midnight hags, Tormenting fools behind their backs: Thus bankers, o’er their bills and bags, Sit squeezing images of wax.

Conceive the whole enchantment broke; The witches left in open air, With power no more than other folk, Exposed with all their magic ware.

So powerful are a banker’s bills, Where creditors demand their due; They break up counters, doors, and tills, And leave the empty chests in view.

Thus when an earthquake lets in light Upon the god of gold and hell, Unable to endure the sight, He hides within his darkest cell.

As when a conjurer takes a lease From Satan for a term of years, The tenant’s in a dismal case, Whene’er the bloody bond appears.

A baited banker thus desponds, From his own hand foresees his fall, They have his soul, who have his bonds; 'Tis like the writing on the wall.*

How will the caitiff wretch be scared, When first he finds himself awake At the last trumpet, unprepared, And all his grand account to make!

For in that universal call, Few bankers will to heaven be mounters; They’ll cry, “Ye shops, upon us fall! Conceal and cover us, ye counters!”

When other hands the scales shall hold, And they, in men’s and angels’ sight Produced with all their bills and gold, "Weigh’d in the balance and found light!"

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!! Now who said that?

 

[elts1956]

I just read Chaput. Thanks for posting it. He is a marvelous writer. Sure makes me want to crawl into a closet and never return to the Catholic Church because of my vote. Not to mention many others who have written, spoken, and have shunned me personally because of this vote.

Is there anyone on this board that voted Obama?? How do you feel…can you go to church?

I am struggling to stay Catholic. I am hurting by others self righteous comments. I feel like my church of 22yr. which I have been highly active in has turned to one sided Republicans and not accepting of anyone else.

(I don’t feel that my choice was bad with the choices that we had and I do think it is a sin to vote for someone who wants to kill babies)

Certainly, my feelings about leaving the church don’t come from this board. This has helped me communicate my thoughts and feelings better so I appreciate it. However, I am not righteous, in my eyes, only God is…and I know that self-righteousness is not humble or gentle like God wants us to be.

Thanks for listening
ps~not the time Obama articles with response to my posting, thanks.

Donna Jean, you have returned to the Church, because you have awakened to the subterfuge that drew you to vote as you did. Talk to your priest. If he tells you not to worry about it, find another priest until he tells you straight out it was a bad judgement, but you are now forgiven. God bless

Although some may want you to believe this discussion is a politcal one, it isn’t. it is a moral one.

 

[elts1956]

I just read Chaput. Thanks for posting it. He is a marvelous writer. Sure makes me want to crawl into a closet and never return to the Catholic Church because of my vote. Not to mention many others who have written, spoken, and have shunned me personally because of this vote.

Is there anyone on this board that voted Obama?? How do you feel…can you go to church?

I am struggling to stay Catholic. I am hurting by others self righteous comments. I feel like my church of 22yr. which I have been highly active in has turned to one sided Republicans and not accepting of anyone else.

(I don’t feel that my choice was bad with the choices that we had and I do think it is a sin to vote for someone who wants to kill babies)

Certainly, my feelings about leaving the church don’t come from this board. This has helped me communicate my thoughts and feelings better so I appreciate it. However, I am not righteous, in my eyes, only God is…and I know that self-righteousness is not humble or gentle like God wants us to be.

Thanks for listening
ps~not the time Obama articles with response to my posting, thanks.

I like the quote from Henry Hyde when he was promoting his amendment to keep our tax dollars from supporting abortion. He said something like, “When we get before the Almighty, I firmly believe He will ask us, not did you succeed, but did you try”.

I have heard you loud and clear from the first time I posted, Bob. So, would you be like others then and tell me to go to a different church outside of Catholicism? I clearly have the separation feeling and it is because of this that I am on the edge…You are saying it is because I am against Catholic Teaching…I feel that there is no other church I would want to belong…so where does that leave a person like me???

I can not say I will ever believe the doctrines in any church…all of them…all the time…I am what one calls human…far beneath… and I do feel it is sinful to vote for a candidate that wants to kill.