It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[Lypher]

Holy cow…Elts… I thought I was bad with like three or four posts, but gee whiz you sure know how to make pancakes… I was too exhausted to read more then the first and last couple. I apologize for wasting your time…

 

[estesbob]

The Bishop of Rome has not dictated to Catholics for whom they may and may not vote, except to reiterate the general, guiding Catholic principles. Quit misleading CAF posters with your unique theology, and attributing to posters on this thread actions, statements, motivations, and implying states of grace or ungrace that are not yours to know.

P.S. The term “baby-killers” when applied to voters or politicians or political parties, is prohibited according to forum rules. It doens’t matter what “the title of the thread is.” Own your words, and do not assign to others, words that were never theirs.

And the guiding Catholic Principleis that Catholics can not support abortion either directly or indirectly. YThe church does not not tell us who to vote for but they most certainly tell us whp we can not vote for.

I am sorry that the term “baby killer” offends you. I personally am offended by the slaughter of children being covered by euphenisms like “fetus”, “choice”, “reproductive rights”, etc. The simple truth is that when one votes for a pro-abortion canidate they are supporting the killing of babies.

 

[CMatt25]

Is it a sin to vote for candidates who ignore Matt 5:38-39 and support putting people to death as a penalty, support massive destruction of a country that did not attack us on 911, who support policies favoring the upper class and not the poor, the homeless, the hungry, who support the health care industry and not assuring a competitive public option to assure quality and affordable health care for the sick. who desire breaking up families by deporting the parents of children born American citizens?

 

[estesbob]

Is it a sin to vote for candidates who ignore Matt 5:38-39 and support putting people to death as a penalty, support massive destruction of a country that did not attack us on 911, who support policies favoring the upper class and not the poor, the homeless, the hungry, who support the health care industry and not assuring a competitive public option to assure quality and affordable health care for the sick. who desire breaking up families by deporting the parents of children born American citizens?

Ill let the Pope answer that:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope benedcit XVI
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Since have not been faced with canidates who who support policies favoring the upper class and not the poor, the homeless, the hungry, who support the health care industry and not assuring a competitive public option to assure quality and affordable health care for the sick. who desire breaking up families by deporting the parents of children born American citizens it is a moot question. We have canidates who who have an honest disagreement of opinion on the best way to handle these issues but the Church does not endorse either party’s solutions. The same can not be said for abortion.
*

 

[CPA2]

I too do not believe that capital punishment should not be used and I would like to see the death penalty abolished. However, as someone has already mentioned, there is a vast difference between capital punishment and abortion.

Capital punishment, by definition, is carried out on the guilty. Abortion, by definition, is carried out on the innocent. Capital punishment can sometimes be justified for the protection of life. A criminal poses a threat to society. Abortion can never be justified. A tiny baby growing in the womb never poses a threat to society.

More people have been killed by abortion than were ever killed by capital punishment. The estimates are that 48 million babies in the United States have been killed by abortion since Roe vs. Wade. That is over 4,000 murders per day. I have heard that 43% of the women under 45 years old have had an abortion. If you do not know someone who has had an abortion, chances are that they did not tell you.

 

[CMatt25]

Ill let the Pope answer that:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope benedcit XVI
---------------------------

Since have not been faced with canidates who who support policies favoring the upper class and not the poor, the homeless, the hungry, who support the health care industry and not assuring a competitive public option to assure quality and affordable health care for the sick. who desire breaking up families by deporting the parents of children born American citizens it is a moot question. We have canidates who who have an honest disagreement of opinion on the best way to handle these issues but the Church does not endorse either party’s solutions. The same can not be said for abortion.
*

You haven’t been faced with those candidates? Interesting.

But regardless, the Pope’s views work if his views fit your conscience. And that’s fine. But when using God given capabilities to sincerely pray, contemplate, study, seek the guidance of His Holy Spirit, and then spending more time repeating the above steps as to what issues to endorse and to what moral weight to apply to each, then making a decision in good conscience based on an informed conscience, if after all of that my conscience still deviates from what the Pope says, then I must allow my conscience to win out. More so for me in light of the moral shortcomings found within the hierarchy thru the yrs. And how can I not present myself to receive Holy Communion if I am called by our Heavenly Father to his Son. Christ Himself said He turns no one away who is called to Him by His Father.

God bless you, CPA, and all others on your journeys as we each simply strive to walk with Him the best we can. Peace.

 

[estesbob]

You haven’t been faced with those candidates? Interesting.

The church neither endorses nor opposes either party’s proposed soultions to social issues. The same can not be said about abortion

But regardless, the Pope’s views work if his views fit your conscience. And that’s fine. But when using God given capabilities to sincerely pray, contemplate, study, seek the guidance of His Holy Spirit, and then spending more time repeating the above steps as to what issues to endorse and to what moral weight to apply to each, then making a decision in good conscience based on an informed conscience, if after all of that my conscience still deviates from what the Pope says, then I must allow my conscience to win out. More so for me in light of the moral shortcomings found within the hierarchy thru the yrs. And I certainly can’t allow the Pope to prevent me from presenting myself to receive Holy Communion if I am called by our Heavenly Father to his Son. Christ Himself said He turns no one away who is called to Him by His Father. Between Christ and the Pope on making myself present to receive Him, I must choose Christ everytime.

Actually if you are Catholic you must form your conscience based on the Teachings of the church-not based on an affinity for any political party or the solutions they offer. no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. I beleive you have a very flawed idea of what the Church teaches about “primacy of conscience”. If our conscience always wins out there is no need for the Church

 

[Black_Rose]

Since have not been faced with canidates who who support policies favoring the upper class and not the poor, the homeless, the hungry, who support the health care industry and not assuring a competitive public option to assure quality and affordable health care for the sick. who desire breaking up families by deporting the parents of children born American citizens it is a moot question. We have canidates who who have an honest disagreement of opinion on the best way to handle these issues but the Church does not endorse either party’s solutions. The same can not be said for abortion.
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I just do not think it is politically possible to abolish abortion; furthermore, I do not believe abortion should be used as a cudgel to force people to disregard other important issues because of their moral ambiguity (or more likely the differential impact on varying people’s self interest causing people to take views consistent with their self-interest)

I believe abortion is best dealt with repressive social institutions not rule of law which is a Confucian position. Abortion should be discouraged through social taboos and inculcated morality, not draconian rule of law.

 

[CMatt25]

The church neither endorses nor opposes either party’s proposed soultions to social issues. The same can not be said about abortion

Actually if you are Catholic you must form your conscience based on the Teachings of the church-not based on an affinity for any political party or the solutions they offer. no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. I beleive you have a very flawed idea of what the Church teaches about “primacy of conscience”. If our conscience always wins out there is no need for the Church

It’s not IF. The Church calls me a Catholic. But like I said it’s fine if you believe no combination of issues trump anything else. Again God bless and peace.

 

[estesbob]

I just do not think it is politically possible to abolish abortion; furthermore, I do not believe abortion should be used as a cudgel to force people to disregard other important issues because of their moral ambiguity (or more likely the differential impact on varying people’s self interest causing people to take views consistent with their self-interest)

I believe abortion is best dealt with repressive social institutions not rule of law which is a Confucian position. Abortion should be discouraged through social taboos and inculcated morality, not draconian rule of law.

As Catholics we are bound by the teachings of the Church-not Confucias

 

[Black_Rose]

As Catholics we are bound by the teachings of the Church-not Confucias

From the Analects of Confucius:

Guide them by edicts, keep them in line with punishments, and the common people will stay out of trouble but will have no sense of shame. Guide them by virtue, keep them in line with the rites, and they will, besides having a sense of shame, reform themselves.”

 

[estesbob]

It’s not IF. The Church calls me a Catholic. But like I said it’s fine if you believe no combination of issues trump anything else. Again God bless and peace.

Its not me that says no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. Its the Church. As usual in abortion threads those of us stateing the Church position painstakingly post direct quotes from members of the Magestrium and excerpts from church documents. All we get in return is “I have to follow my conscience” and /or “My Priest told me it was Ok”. it is fine if you want to reject the teachings of the Church-not so fine when one goes on a Catholic forum and claims such a rejection is OK in the eyes of the Church.

 

[estesbob]

From the Analects of Confucius:

If i ever decide to dump Catholicism and follow Confucius i’ll keep that in mind.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Its not me that says no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. Its the Church. As usual in abortion threads those of us stateing the Church position painstakingly post direct quotes from members of the Magestrium and excerpts from church documents. All we get in return is “I have to follow my conscience” and /or “My Priest told me it was Ok”. it is fine if you want to reject the teachings of the Church-not so fine when one goes on a Catholic forum and claims such a rejection is OK in the eyes of the Church.

 

[Black_Rose]

If i ever decide to dump Catholicism and follow Confucius i’ll keep that in mind.

But my main question is why rule of law should trump repressive social institutions? Why impose Church Teaching on people who do not agree with Her through with the political apparatus of the state by restricting abortion for everyone? Isn’t that a violation of the classical liberal principle of liberty (of which many people on this forum embrace (at least economically) as a political principle)?

 

[estesbob]

But my main question is why rule of law should trump repressive social institutions? Why impose Church Teaching on people who do not agree with Her through with the political apparatus of the state by restricting abortion for everyone? Isn’t that a violation of the classical liberal principle of liberty (of which many people on this forum embrace (at least economically) as a political principle)?

A Catholic has just as much right to vote in accordance with their moral values as does an atheist or one who follows confuscius.

 

[CMatt25]

Its not me that says no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. Its the Church. As usual in abortion threads those of us stateing the Church position painstakingly post direct quotes from members of the Magestrium and excerpts from church documents. All we get in return is “I have to follow my conscience” and /or “My Priest told me it was Ok”. it is fine if you want to reject the teachings of the Church-not so fine when one goes on a Catholic forum and claims such a rejection is OK in the eyes of the Church.

When did I claim anything is ok in the eyes of the Church? I claim Catholic ID yes. The Church even claims me as such and as a member of the Church. But I do not deny dissent from some teachings. Peace to you.

 

[CMatt25]

A Catholic has just as much right to vote in accordance with their moral values as does an atheist or one who follows confuscius.

But that must include all persons defined as Catholic by the Church. Including informed catechized but still dissenting on some issue Catholics. Not merely fully 100% practicing fully allegiant Catholics.

 

[Lypher]

Its not me that says no issue or combination of issues trumps abortion. Its the Church. As usual in abortion threads those of us stateing the Church position painstakingly post direct quotes from members of the Magestrium and excerpts from church documents. All we get in return is “I have to follow my conscience” and /or “My Priest told me it was Ok”. it is fine if you want to reject the teachings of the Church-not so fine when one goes on a Catholic forum and claims such a rejection is OK in the eyes of the Church.

I think we have a name associated with those individuals that disregard or protest the moral teachings of the Pope and Magisterium… I think they are called Protestants:blush:… I am pretty sure that is what they are ???

 

[estesbob]

But that must include all persons defined as Catholic by the Church. Including informed catechized but still dissenting on some issue Catholics. Not merely fully 100% practicing fully allegiant Catholics.

Can you give us a list of what teachings Catholics can safely ignore? it really would be helpful.