It is a Sin to Vote for Pro-Abortion Candidates

[CWBetts]

Ok I won’t because I don’t. I’m not throwing my Bible away but that doesn’t mean I want to throw away the Constitution.

Sometimes, it gets to a point where you only get to pick one. The abortion issue is one of those times. The Supreme Court is irrelevant at this point.

 

[CMatt25]

Sometimes, it gets to a point where you only get to pick one. The abortion issue is one of those times. The Supreme Court is irrelevant at this point.

If only that were true and the Supreme Court on a 5-4 party line vote had been irrelevant in seating George W Bush into the White House. Sigh.

Funny thing though if the SC is irrelevant why worry about who Obama apppoints to it or any President? Oh it’s only relevant when it rules according to your politics. I get it.

 

[Lypher]

I just don’t see where the Catholic Church teaches that some human lives are in more need of protection than others.
Thanks.

Digger as a convert, still in RCIA, this is one area that the Catholic Church is far and away more specific then most other Christian Faith groups as they have a “Just War Doctrine” that pretty much is fundamentally based on the fact that some lives and or situations allow killing in the name of Justice. However the church is VERY specific that abortion never is allowed, and defines when you can use Just War as well.

Peace…

 

[elts1956]

Which is exactly why it is silly, less fruitful, less realisitic to take the extreme position and spend so much time, effort, energy, and resources on trying to overturn this law based on faith and beliefs and instead we should be spending the time, effort, energy, and resources on things we can more readily affect. Working instead to make abortion rare. Programs to aid mothers and their children after birth. We could do so much more to aid humankind if we were not so one issue oriented and even in that if we were not so to the one sided extreme. God bless and peace.

So why is the bo administration sending millions of dollars to planned parenthood? Is this the only resource he has? We can still be as you define it “one issue oriented” and do everything else that we can to help mothers and children. Why should one of the above cancel out the other? Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[elts1956]

I had no intention of twisting your words, sorry if it came across that way. I was really just trying to understand what you said, and the logical implications of what you said.

I don’t understand how your quotes from Rev. Williams (no matter who he is) responds to my question regarding your post I responded to.

You posted:

I just don’t see where the Catholic Church teaches that some human lives are in more need of protection than others.
Thanks.

Then you haven’t read nor thought enough about it. Which is more vulnerable, an unborn baby, or an adult? I don’t get your thinking or philosophy on life. You have read Evangelium Vitae, right? Why would the Pope write an encyclical about lives he didn’t care about, or give a whole document over to the subject of abortion if it wasn’t of the utmost importance?

 

[Lypher]

If only that were true and the Supreme Court on a 5-4 party line vote had been irrelevant in seating George W Bush into the White House. Sigh.

Funny thing though if the SC is irrelevant why worry about who Obama apppoints to it or any President? Oh it’s only relevant when it rules according to your politics. I get it.

Matt,
Please forgive my ignorance with regards to a lot of Church teaching as I am still in RCIA (Comment about CPA2’s well written post) I am trying to understand your point of view on active support of abortion, but I can find no Church teaching that allows for abortion at any point from conception and actually only writing and teaching that says we are supposed to do everything we can to stop it. Can you please point me in the direction in the Bible, an encyclical, or paragraph in the CCC where I can find that it is ok to actively support, through toleration or actions such as voting which would allow for the taking of an innocent life? Am I missing it somewhere? On a side note the position you have taken seems very familiar to that which I held as a Lutheran. I wonder if a lot of Catholics are closet Protestants and don’t even realize it?

Thanks…

 

[elts1956]

I had no intention of twisting your words, sorry if it came across that way. I was really just trying to understand what you said, and the logical implications of what you said.

I don’t understand how your quotes from Rev. Williams (no matter who he is) responds to my question regarding your post I responded to.

You posted:

I just don’t see where the Catholic Church teaches that some human lives are in more need of protection than others.
Thanks.

If only that were true and the Supreme Court on a 5-4 party line vote had been irrelevant in seating George W Bush into the White House. Sigh.

Funny thing though if the SC is irrelevant why worry about who Obama apppoints to it or any President? Oh it’s only relevant when it rules according to your politics. I get it.

Morals not politics. Morals, not politics. Morals, not politics. Got it yet???

 

[elts1956]

See #34

It doesn’t. That’s the point. Show me where Catholic teaching requires it should? Note…I’m not asking you to say where the Church says abortion is intrinsically evil, of course it is. I’m asking you to say where the Church teaches that abortion is the first and only issue one should consider in political elections.

What? Are you kidding? By the U.S. Bishops? Come on, get serious. See #22 and #42. Also see in general usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/index.shtml

Before the last POTUS election, I heard very little from Bishops and the rest of the clergy about the abortion issue. Yes, some good Bishops did come out and state firmly that voting for a pro abotion party was wrong, dead wrong. But others are more interested in spreading Social Justice very thinly around for the laity to imbibe. The thinner they spread their philosophy, the less that gets done. By declaring voting for an abortion candidate to be a sin, perhaps people would sit up and take notice that ALL humans have dignity, but ALL have dignity beginning at conception until natural death.

Abortion was the first and most serious issue in this past election. About a third of the Bishops stated this. The other 2/3rd had their own agenda.

 

[elts1956]

See #34

It doesn’t. That’s the point. Show me where Catholic teaching requires it should? Note…I’m not asking you to say where the Church says abortion is intrinsically evil, of course it is. I’m asking you to say where the Church teaches that abortion is the first and only issue one should consider in political elections.

What? Are you kidding? By the U.S. Bishops? Come on, get serious. See #22 and #42. Also see in general usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/index.shtml

Orthodox ,Lutherans, Calvinists, and Baptist all dissent with Church teaching and they don’t seem to have any problems… …

Lypher are you being funny? Are you serious? I don’t like to speak ill of my Protestant brethren, but they don’t have a History and dogma going back over two thousand years that has remained constant. There are many brancheds of Lutherans, Calvinists, and Baptists. But only one Catholic Church teaching absolute truths given by Christ and His Disciples.

 

[elts1956]

Ok then you want to throw out the Constitution I guess. Good luck.

What language are you interpreting. This was written in English. I thought you would understand.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I’ve learned today that I’m misguided and “a sinner of great magnitude” from your post. Let me try one more time. Even if you agree that abortion is the most important issue for voters to consider, I do not agree with the approach of many on CAF who collapse all issues to abortion, as if that was the only issue to consider. Neither the pope nor the bishops have offered the kind of guidance that would make a vote for a candidate from the Democratic Party, including Pres. Obama, a “sin of great magnitude.” I think that view is misguided. The Republicans have used abortion as a wedge issue to attempt to represent the Republican Party as the “Catholic Party.” I’m old enough to remember when the Democratic Party was supposedly the Catholic Party. I’ve seen the bishops and the U.S. (and worldwide) church move to the right, shifting the rhetoric from an emphasis on justic issues to an emphasis on abortion. I read and consider carefully the guidance offered by the Magisterium, and I find nowhere the notion that abortion is the only issue that matters. I understand the comfort offered by single-issue politics, but I don’t vote that way, not do I judge and condemn those who vote differently than I do.

The Democrats have abortion on demand in their party plank. We’ve seen in recent months that there really is no such thing as a pro-life Dem who cannot be bought.

How is being against abortion ‘Republican?’ How is being pro-abortion in any way, shape, or form Catholic?

 

[Lypher]

Lypher are you being funny?

Trying…

Are you serious?

No…

I don’t like to speak ill of my Protestant brethren, but they don’t have a History and dogma going back over two thousand years that has remained constant. There are many branches of Lutherans, Calvinists, and Baptists. But only one Catholic Church teaching absolute truths given by Christ and His Disciples.

Yep…I was one and that is what I was pointing to. Seems some people want to say they are Catholic, but disregard the teachings of the Church,

Abortion (Left fails)
Contraception (Left and Center fail)
Social Justice (Right fail)

Usually each side of the political spectrum fail somewhere with regards to basic tenants of the CCC…

It amazes me you can go to a thread on abortion and watch posters adamantly defend church teaching against the state… and then find those same posters on a immigration thread use the state against the Church’s teaching on compassion.

Usually arguments such as State responsibility for its citizens can be used both ways such as border protections with regards to immigrants and resources for welfare and children not wanted for Pro-choice…could probably throw in pro choice to help get rid of illegals and have a real issue for those conservatives that espouse a pro life stance yet want to throw out the children…I guess a street in Mexico city is softer then a trash can in an abortion clinic…

To answer your question…yes sarcasm…for both issues…this will probably result in some conservatives questioning my loyalty to the US …just watch…

This post will catch both sides…and each will be ticked at me…

 

[CPA2]

Ok then you want to throw out the Constitution I guess. Good luck.

I have been arguing about this point with atheists for 40 years. **ATHEISTS FAIL TO MENTION THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE! **How convenient! **The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are interdependent. ** The Constitution cannot be interpreted independently of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration establishes the PRINCIPLES from which the new American government would operate. July 4th, the date of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, not the date of the signing of the Constitution. Our government is dated from July 4th, 1776. That is how important the Declaration of Independence is.

John Adams said that the Constitution’s platform of virtue, its republic character, are from the** PRINCIPLES **within the Declaration of Independence. The virtues which were “infused into the Constitution” were principles “proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence.”

“(Our fathers) established these great self-evident truths that…their posterity might look up again to the Declaration of Independence and take courage to renew that battle which their FATHERS began, so that **TRUTH…and CHRISTIAN VIRTUES **might not be extinguished from the land…(Abraham Lincoln).”

References:
David Barton, Original Intent, Wallbuilder Press, 2005, p.248-249

 

[CWBetts]

If only that were true and the Supreme Court on a 5-4 party line vote had been irrelevant in seating George W Bush into the White House. Sigh.

Funny thing though if the SC is irrelevant why worry about who Obama apppoints to it or any President? Oh it’s only relevant when it rules according to your politics. I get it.

The Supreme court is irrelevant concerning the issue of abortion. The Supreme COurt doies not define morality, the Church does. When the Supreme Court is in direct opposition to the Church, it is only proper to side with the Church.

 

[CMatt25]

Hi Lypher, no forgiveness needed.

It depends on which saint or Pope from which era of changing Church history you want to believe.

St. Augustine accepted the concept of “delayed ensoulment”. He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no human soul is destroyed.

Pope Innocent III (1161-1216) determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not “animated” at the time.
Early in the 13th century, he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of “quickening” - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Before that time, abortion was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human person, not an actual human person.

While Pope Sixtus V (1588) issued a Papal bull threatening those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty, Pope Gregory XIV (1591) revoked the bull of Sixtus and reinstated the “quickening” test, which he determined happened 16½ weeks or at about 4 mos into a pregnancy.

And then I think still today (but it too could have changed) the Church has a rather complex exception process allowing procedures which abort the fetus to save the life of the mother. However they call it indirect abortion or a double effect. And like to think they don’t know by performing such a procedure that the fetus will likely die. I applaud this as an act of mercy and deserving compassion toward the life of the mother. However I don’t think they should pretend they don’t know that such an act is in all likelihood going to kill the fetus and then be so judging in other circumstances.

Biblically you’re missing Ex 21: 22-24 which clearly suggests the death of a fetus is not quite as serious as if an actual person already born is killed. Some might even Biblically argue body + breath = the soul or human person as found in Genesis 2:7.

And no a lot of Catholics are Catholic according to Church teaching. Maybe they haven’t covered that yet with you in your RCIA classes. About how Baptism according to the rites of the CC makes one a member of the Body of Christ, which is the Church and imprints a permanent bond onto the soul in which no act can cause one to lose membership. A lot of Catholics dissent, this is true. But have not become Lutheran or members of another Protestant church. And thus remain Catholic in the eyes of the Church. But don’t worry a lot of Catholics on CAF don’t seem to know the teaching either. Or else they too dissent and won’t admit it.

Truly God bless you in your journey into the Catholic faith. And as we walk united in Him, let us always remain humble remembering it is He Whom is greater than any differences we might have. God bless you and peace be with you always.

Your still Catholic brother in Christ,
CMatt25

religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm

religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c1.htm

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

 

[estesbob]

The Supreme court is irrelevant concerning the issue of abortion. The Supreme COurt doies not define morality, the Church does. When the Supreme Court is in direct opposition to the Church, it is only proper to side with the Church.

It depends on whether one believe their faith should be subservient to their politcs. it appears in the last election some 54% of Catholics who voted believed the Democrat Party Platform trumped the cathecism of the catholic church.

We should not fall into the trap, as some would have it, that we have to choose between opposing abortion or helping the poor. The two are not mutually exclusive although we may differ on the best way to help the poor.

This thread is a good example of how Satan can take good intentions and use them to lead us into Sin. Ones concern for the poor leeads them to support an intrinisc evil. And then in order to rationalize their sin they try and convince others that their sin was not a sin at all.

 

[CMatt25]

I have been arguing about this point with atheists for 40 years. **ATHEISTS FAIL TO MENTION THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE! **How convenient! **The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are interdependent. ** The Constitution cannot be interpreted independently of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration establishes the PRINCIPLES from which the new American government would operate. July 4th, the date of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, not the date of the signing of the Constitution. Our government is dated from July 4th, 1776. That is how important the Declaration of Independence is.

John Adams said that the Constitution’s platform of virtue, its republic character, are from the** PRINCIPLES **within the Declaration of Independence. The virtues which were “infused into the Constitution” were principles “proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence.”

“(Our fathers) established these great self-evident truths that…their posterity might look up again to the Declaration of Independence and take courage to renew that battle which their FATHERS began, so that **TRUTH…and CHRISTIAN VIRTUES **might not be extinguished from the land…(Abraham Lincoln).”

References:
David Barton, Original Intent, Wallbuilder Press, 2005, p.248-249

You can argue it for another 40 yrs unless you appoint yourself king and dictator of the colonies and if then there is not a revolution to overthrow you. God bless and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

The Supreme court is irrelevant concerning the issue of abortion. The Supreme COurt doies not define morality, the Church does. When the Supreme Court is in direct opposition to the Church, it is only proper to side with the Church.

Yeah I know you believe the Church can do anything She wants under bind and loose. Even add to Christ. And allow even some without the best morals themselves to be defining morality. Thank God we are still free to believe. God bless and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

It appears in the last election some 54% of Catholics who voted believed the Democrat Party Platform trumped the cathecism of the catholic church.

Only if the catechism ignores Christ’s actual words to serve the poor and to take care of ther sick and how blessed are the peacemakers. But nevertheless 54% of Catholics still Catholic!

 

[CMatt25]

Even if you agree that abortion is the most important issue for voters to consider, I do not agree with the approach of many on CAF who collapse all issues to abortion, as if that was the only issue to consider. Neither the pope nor the bishops have offered the kind of guidance that would make a vote for a candidate from the Democratic Party, including Pres. Obama, a “sin of great magnitude.” I think that view is misguided. The Republicans have used abortion as a wedge issue to attempt to represent the Republican Party as the “Catholic Party.” I’m old enough to remember when the Democratic Party was supposedly the Catholic Party. I’ve seen the bishops and the U.S. (and worldwide) church move to the right, shifting the rhetoric from an emphasis on justice issues to an emphasis on abortion.

Beautifully said. My argument precisely. The collapse of all other issues to one. I’m old enough as well to remember when Dems were the Catholic party. I knew of devout Catholics who right next to their statue of the Blessed Mother Mary, had a bust of a Kennedy prominently displayed in their homes.

I think besides Roe perhaps what has also happened is govt policy over the yrs has actually helped many Catholics achieve higher economic status but now having attained their own status, they shun such policy for others. Greed I believe sadly came to be the Word in the 80s under Reagan. And it has presented us with many of the problems we see today.

God bless you and peace.