T
It is stuff like this that's forcing me move to traditional Catholicism
- Status
T
thistle
Guest
So you are saying that if there is no Mass available you would rather prevent the faithful from being able to receive Communion because its not during a Mass??
C
Cat
Guest
If there were no other Mass available within a reasonable driving distance, I would definitely attend a Communion service to be able to receive the Lord Jesus. For me, to stay away from the Lord Jesus Christ, Truly Present, just because it isn’t a Mass would be unthinkable. I seek HIM above all else. My own personal preferences don’t matter.
Gas costs almost $4.00 a gallon where we live, and I know it costs more in other places. We are fortunate that there are many many Catholic churches in our city, and it is easy to find a Sunday Mass. But if I lived in certain parts of the country where there are not so many Catholic Churches, and the distances are long, AND if I were poor or didn’t have a lot of money, I would not spend that money driving to a Mass if Holy Mother Church makes a provision for me to attend a Communion service close to my home. It’s a question of financial stewardship and being a responsible spouse/parent–families need money for many things. Why would you deprive your spouse or family of necessities when the Church has made a provision to receive the Lord Jesus in Communion?
It sounds like the bishop must approve for a Communion service to be offered. If the bishop approves, then a good Catholic does no wrong to attend and receive the Lord Jesus.
It seems that whenever we attend a Catholic Communion service, we should be reminded to pray for vocations!
Gas costs almost $4.00 a gallon where we live, and I know it costs more in other places. We are fortunate that there are many many Catholic churches in our city, and it is easy to find a Sunday Mass. But if I lived in certain parts of the country where there are not so many Catholic Churches, and the distances are long, AND if I were poor or didn’t have a lot of money, I would not spend that money driving to a Mass if Holy Mother Church makes a provision for me to attend a Communion service close to my home. It’s a question of financial stewardship and being a responsible spouse/parent–families need money for many things. Why would you deprive your spouse or family of necessities when the Church has made a provision to receive the Lord Jesus in Communion?
It sounds like the bishop must approve for a Communion service to be offered. If the bishop approves, then a good Catholic does no wrong to attend and receive the Lord Jesus.
It seems that whenever we attend a Catholic Communion service, we should be reminded to pray for vocations!
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
What I am stating is that a Communion Service does not fulfil the Sunday Obligation. Therefore, you are not obliged to go to one.
I am wondering how it will be promoted in the interim between the supression of liberalism in the next couple of generations and the return of orthodoxy within the Roman Church.
In some ways, it fulfills a progressive ideal: non-hierarchial, non-clerical, total lay involvement, can have women officiatiing, saves the diocese on having to supply a priest and is wide open to experiment.
I am wondering how it will be promoted in the interim between the supression of liberalism in the next couple of generations and the return of orthodoxy within the Roman Church.
In some ways, it fulfills a progressive ideal: non-hierarchial, non-clerical, total lay involvement, can have women officiatiing, saves the diocese on having to supply a priest and is wide open to experiment.
P
Phemie
Guest
It is not legitimately open to experiment since the USCCB & the CCCB have official ritual books for these celebrations. The leader of prayer who ad-libs is no worse than the priest who ad-libs where the rubrics don’t permit it. At least the leader’s ad-libs don’t threaten the validity of anything.
But I’d like to know, is it your opinion that it’s better for the community which is without a priest for months on end to have nothing than to have a weekly Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest?
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
I think a community which is without a priest for months on end should examine why that is so.
Someone once said to a lady who was complaining about the lack of vocations: “Did you ever encourage your relatives to becomes a priest?”. And answer came there none.
I’ve got a strong sense over recent years that a liberal bishop +/- liberal seminary directors +/- populist Masses +/- contraception = death for vocations. And yet we have reports that tradition-minded bishops do not want for them.
Someone once said to a lady who was complaining about the lack of vocations: “Did you ever encourage your relatives to becomes a priest?”. And answer came there none.
I’ve got a strong sense over recent years that a liberal bishop +/- liberal seminary directors +/- populist Masses +/- contraception = death for vocations. And yet we have reports that tradition-minded bishops do not want for them.
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
Neither should be done. But priests do, as you say, and I suspect the regulation of laity will be even looser. I think there’s still time for some silliness until time and demographics deal with the ‘bringing the Truth up to date’ tendency.
C
Cat
Guest
Certainly it makes sense to examine why there are no priests.
But even if the entire parish “gets religion” and cleans up their all their individual acts (no more ABC, no more liberalism, complete reverence, etc.), it would still take many many years to form a priest or two.
In the meantime, for all those years, what are the faithful to do? Languish without the opportunity to receive the Lord Jesus? That sounds rather cold.
I suppose they could charter a bus or van and drive to the nearest Mass. That’s probably what I would do.
But by leaving their parish each Sunday, they make it even harder for the parish to survive. Also, the parish is left in the hands of questionable people. No, I think it is best if the faithful are able to stick around their own “home” and work and struggle to make things better.
Also, I think that it would be good to pray for and try to help those parishes that are without a priest rather than judging them.
C
Cat
Guest
I would like to add that there are some parishes in our diocese that “share” a priest. All of these parishes are rural (here in Northern Illinois) and really “out in the sticks.” Most of them are not very large–only a few dozen people. So it is hard to justify assigning one priest to each parish, and that’s why they “share” their priest.
This has nothing to do with liberalism or blatant unconfessed sin. It has to do with changing demographics. The population of the rural communities is decreasing and has been for decades. Some of these rural communities are now a group of subdivisions inhabited by city folks who wanted to have a “country” life, and the Catholics living in these nice homes apparently prefer to attend the parish in their town rather than driving out to the country to a tiny little parish.
Some of the smallest towns in our state have dissolved entirely.
Many of the people left in these small country parishes are elderly, on fixed incomes, and don’t care to “carpool” many miles away to a Mass. They want to be where they were baptized, confirmed, married, and where their children were baptized, confirmed, and married. Eventually they’ll die, too, and I’m guessing that many of these tiny parishes will close down, or be consolidated into one church. Sigh.
This has nothing to do with liberalism or blatant unconfessed sin. It has to do with changing demographics. The population of the rural communities is decreasing and has been for decades. Some of these rural communities are now a group of subdivisions inhabited by city folks who wanted to have a “country” life, and the Catholics living in these nice homes apparently prefer to attend the parish in their town rather than driving out to the country to a tiny little parish.
Some of the smallest towns in our state have dissolved entirely.
Many of the people left in these small country parishes are elderly, on fixed incomes, and don’t care to “carpool” many miles away to a Mass. They want to be where they were baptized, confirmed, married, and where their children were baptized, confirmed, and married. Eventually they’ll die, too, and I’m guessing that many of these tiny parishes will close down, or be consolidated into one church. Sigh.
D
Denise1957
Guest
It’s good that Phemie’s parish seems to be following the guidelines for communion services. But the OP of this thread is about a communion service gone wrong, which there is strong evidence that abuse has occurred. If you read the OP, you’ll see the concerns that were mentioned. I would not attend a communion service where these sort of things occur - even if it was the only parish within hundreds of miles. Just my opinion.
I just want to add that you’re right about praying for those parishes that don’t have a priest.
C
CompSciGuy
Guest
…and God definitely doesn’t want us worshipping him in ANY language other than LATIN!
Do you think that it is easier or more difficult for our consciousness and preference to be shaped to His will if everything is read in English, or in a dead language that nobody knows?
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
Roman Catholic Church, Latin rite: which language should it use to ensure the meaning of its rites and texts don’t change as the common language does?
If all of the changes have not resulted in the Springtime hoped for, then they should be kept?
[sarcasm]
Remember: if it was ever done in the past, it’s Ok to resurrect it now. Conversely, if it served the Church well for hundreds of years, then it should be updated. Because we’re different, now.[/sarcasm]
If all of the changes have not resulted in the Springtime hoped for, then they should be kept?
[sarcasm]
Remember: if it was ever done in the past, it’s Ok to resurrect it now. Conversely, if it served the Church well for hundreds of years, then it should be updated. Because we’re different, now.[/sarcasm]
P
ProVobis
Guest
Nobody? Then how has Latin managed to remain the codified language of Christianity since the early centuries? In due time, Modern English as we know it is predicted to go the way of Old English and Middle English and Shakespeare. Into oblivion.
M
Melchior_1
Guest
In the absence of consistent Masses in a community, would staying at home by yourself foster vocations? Or would going to a Liturgy of the Word + Communion with your community foster them?
You’d think the latter would be more successful, I would imagine.
You’d think the latter would be more successful, I would imagine.
C
Cat
Guest
I would agree. I would think that it’s always better to receive the Lord Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity rather than staying away and thinking about Him.
I suppose that if one’s conscience is upset by a Communion service, perhaps it’s better to stay away. But I also think that a well-formed conscience would be more bothered by not receiving Jesus when one has the opportunity, and that opportunity is approved and presented by the Church. Sometimes our own personal preferences can get in the way of our Christianity and impede our spiritual growth.
I’m so glad that we have a Church that gives us such a glorious “roll of directions!” We don’t have to flounder around and wonder what is good and what is evil. Our Church tells us!
C
Cat
Guest
But if you read the entire thread, you will see that the rubrics do not seem to indicate that this was a communion service gone wrong. That’s the point we are making. The OP was horrified, but there is no reason to be horrified. There were errors, but not blatant evils, at the Communion service described.It’s good that Phemie’s parish seems to be following the guidelines for communion services. But the OP of this thread is about a communion service gone wrong, which there is strong evidence that abuse has occurred. If you read the OP, you’ll see the concerns that were mentioned. I would not attend a communion service where these sort of things occur - even if it was the only parish within hundreds of miles. Just my opinion.
I just want to add that you’re right about praying for those parishes that don’t have a priest.
Yes, there are definitely irregularities; e.g., the presider said prayers that are only supposed to be said by a priest in the Mass instead of the prayers that are supposed to be said in a Communion service.
But for the most part, it was a properly-done (kind of) Communion service. Yes, there were errors. It seems that the people doing the service are unaware that there is an “Order of Service” for a Catholic Communion service. This is understandable, especially if priests are rare in their area, and they don’t have a lot of guidance from their diocese.
If they were made aware of the proper Order of Service for a Catholic Communion service, I’m guessing (and yes, I could be wrong) that they would make the changes and do a correct Catholic Communion service.
Of course, the people doing the Communion service really COULD be feminist liberals who are determined to establish a “female priesthood” and turn the Holy Communion into a mockery, and insult the Lord Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.
But why believe the worst of people, especially when you don’t even know them, and you’ve never been in that parish before?
Why not choose to believe the best of people, especially our Catholic brothers and sisters? Why not choose to believe that they are doing the best they can with the knowledge that they have, and that if the priest or bishop contacted them and asked them to please correct their Order of Service, and GAVE THEM the proper Order of Service and the proper prayers for laypeople in a Communion service, that they would willingly and joyfully make those changes and present a good and proper Communion Service to the Lord’s people while they are deprived of a priest?
Why must we always see a conspiracy where more often than not, there is merely ignorance and human failing?
I
InquisitorMax
Guest
I think this is a Darwinian process.
Liberal dioscese +/-
Sentimental, populist Masses +/-
‘Dialoguing for social justice and ecology’ +/-
Turning away pious men from seminaries +/-
Filtering them out if they get in +/-
Contraception +/-
Mass as a communal meal, in the common language +/-
Altar girls
= no vocations.
It’s just not attractive to a straight man with prospects: A ‘presider’ at a versus populum Mass. As a boy he doesn’t want to mix with altar girls. If, as a young man, he’s pious and does go forward, there’s a chance he’ll be filtered out as being ‘too rigid’(!)
No vocations = no priests.
No priest = no Mass.
Liberal dioscese +/-
Sentimental, populist Masses +/-
‘Dialoguing for social justice and ecology’ +/-
Turning away pious men from seminaries +/-
Filtering them out if they get in +/-
Contraception +/-
Mass as a communal meal, in the common language +/-
Altar girls
= no vocations.
It’s just not attractive to a straight man with prospects: A ‘presider’ at a versus populum Mass. As a boy he doesn’t want to mix with altar girls. If, as a young man, he’s pious and does go forward, there’s a chance he’ll be filtered out as being ‘too rigid’(!)
No vocations = no priests.
No priest = no Mass.
P
Phemie
Guest
It may have some bearing on it but then again, I grew up in a parish founded in 1848. In that time we’ve had 2 ordinations. Both men were altar servers for the same Pastor. I think perhaps the Pastor is a greater influence than anything else you’re likely to come up with.
P
Phemie
Guest
There was one blatant abuse in the service described by the OP and that was that the leader read the Eucharistic Prayer. THAT was a major no-no and showed that the leader had not been properly trained. But the thing that upset the OP the most was the leader self-communicating and that is the rubric for the Communion Rite in such a service.
T
TrueLight
Guest
I wonder if most of the laity at the communion services understand that the hosts have already been consecrated or if they think they are being consecrated by non-priests at the service?
- Status