It is the Catholic Church that makes us Christians.....

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Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?

Psalms 127:1
"Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."
 
It is baptism that makes us Christian. This is Churrch teaching.

I suppose one could argue that Christ gave the sacraments to the Church through her Bishops and the Church gives us the sacraments, so indirectly yes.
 
Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?

Psalms 127:1
"Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."
Yes.

Because we cannot separate “the Church” from “Christ.” The Church is the “Body of Christ”

Asking “does the Church make us Christian?” is like asking “does Christ make us Christian?” *

See the Vatican II document “Lumen Gentium” especially #8 adoremus.org/LumenGentium.html
  • (of course, Christ does not “make” us Christian in the sense of forcing us, but rather “belief in Christ” makes us Christian)
 
Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?
Anyone who knows that Christ is the Son of God and the second Person of the Trinity, and who shows his or her knowledge of Christ in action or deed is a Christian. If one identifies himself or herself as Christian, then they are Christian.
 
+The Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church never makes such a presumptious boast . . . God Eternal Himself . . . is the author and source of the salvation of the souls of sinful mankind . . . Jesus . . . ****the Blessed Christ of God ****. . . Alone . . . is our . . . Saviour, Redeemer and Lord . . . Who is the **Eternal God the Son **. . . **Second Person of the Holy Trinity **. . . the Church is a holy created being . . . a creation of God . . . and is singularly designated as the “Bride” of our beloved **Eternal Lord Jesus Christ ** her Holy Head and Groom . . . and she has NO power or life within herself except that given unto her by the . . . Holy Grace of our Living Eternal God . . . through the presence of the . . . **Holy Spirit of our Lord **. . . God Alone . . . is the author and finisher of our faith . . . the Church is only an instrument used of God . . . but in herself she can do nothing except the hand of God lift her up and make use of her . . .

**:bible1:
*Jesus answered, and said to him:
Amen, amen I say to thee,
unless a man be
born again,
he cannot see the kingdom of God. *
- John 3:3


+The word “regeneration” is used in **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **. . . in a religious context among Christians it refers to the teaching of our . . . **Lord Himself ** . . . Who . . . in all simplicity . . . introduced the :bible1: **Scriptural **term and profound holy concept and reality of the necessity of needing to be “born again” by the grace of God . . . which is a specific work of the . . . Third Person of the Holy Trinity . . . the wonderful **Holy Spirit **of our God . . . and is recorded in the New Testament as quoted above . . .

The portions of Sacred :bible1: Scripture below reference the word “regeneration” specifically . . .

:bible1: Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them: Amen,** I **say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the **Son of Man **shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

:bible1:** 2 Titus 3:5** Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the HOLY GHOST;

:bible1: John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen** I** say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the HOLY GHOST, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
 
Anyone who knows that Christ is the Son of God and the second Person of the Trinity, and who shows his or her knowledge of Christ in action or deed is a Christian. If one identifies himself or herself as Christian, then they are Christian.
Um, uh, various fringe groups identify themselves Christian, but the Catholic Church does not. They believe different things about Christ other than that He is the the Second Person of the Trinity – Mormons and JWs, for example.
 
Um, uh, various fringe groups identify themselves Christian, but the Catholic Church does not. They believe different things about Christ other than that He is the the Second Person of the Trinity – Mormons and JWs, for example.
It’s not our place to deny someone’s identification as a Christian. The Catholic Church claims that one is Catholic by virtue of the Baptismal Seal made in the Trinity. We can claim that one is not Catholic, as evidenced by lack of required Baptism in the Trinity. However, we cannot claim that they don’t believe in Christ, if in fact, they do. If they say they are Christian, it’s not our place to say that they are not. It simply means they are not Catholic.
 
Anyone who knows that Christ is the Son of God and the second Person of the Trinity, and who shows his or her knowledge of Christ in action or deed is a Christian. If one identifies himself or herself as Christian, then they are Christian.
Is Jesus a Christian?
 
Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?

Psalms 127:1
"Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."
It is Christ and His work within our hearts and lives that makes us Christians…not an organization or ritual washing of water.

“A man may enter the waters of baptism a “dry sinner” and exit a “wet sinner” and never change the way he lives…but no one truly Baptized and filled with the Spirit of Christ can remain unchanged, we become new creations in Christ.” is how one Friend stated it.

By His Spirit are we “baptized into Christ” and are joined to His Body.
 
Is Jesus a Christian?
According to Rence’s definition, yes, as He knew who He was. 😃

But He didn’t use the term “Christian” to define Himself, if that’s what you’re getting at…
 
Anyone who knows that Christ is the Son of God and the second Person of the Trinity, and who shows his or her knowledge of Christ in action or deed is a Christian. If one identifies himself or herself as Christian, then they are Christian.
This contradicts Catholic Church teaching.

Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ. One does not become a Christian until one is baptized.
 
Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?
The statement is fraught with problems that stem from intended meaning to understood meaning -

For instance, when you say, “Catholic Church”, are you referring to the “Ekklesia Universal” or to the visible “Church” headquartered in Rome?

To me and in it’s simplest form. It is Christ who makes Christians. Disciples are not known by their affiliation but by their Love (John 13:35).

The Catholic Church is an institution created by Christ, and built up by men under the constant guidance of the Holy Spirit for the training, teaching and guidance of the faithful. The Church visible, is an outward sign of God’s Love for us.

Peace
James
 
The statement is fraught with problems that stem from intended meaning to understood meaning -

For instance, when you say, “Catholic Church”, are you referring to the “Ekklesia Universal” or to the visible “Church” headquartered in Rome?

To me and in it’s simplest form. ** It is Christ who makes Christians. Disciples are not known by their affiliation but by their Love (John 13:35).**The Catholic Church is an institution created by Christ, and built up by men under the constant guidance of the Holy Spirit for the training, teaching and guidance of the faithful. The Church visible, is an outward sign of God’s Love for us.

Peace
James
👍
 
This contradicts Catholic Church teaching.

Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ. One does not become a Christian until one is baptized.
+Actually the above statement is not in in complete accordance with the full teaching of the Catholic Church . . . in that it ignores completely the . . . “baptism of desire” . . . and the . . . “baptism of blood” . . . as clearly spoken of in the Catechism . . . regarding those who do not have the full knowledge or possibility of seeking out and asking for the Holy Sacrament of Baptism . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
THE CATECHISM
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Section Two
The Seven Sacraments of the Church

CHAPTER ONE
THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION

VI. The Necessity of Baptism


**1257 **
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands **his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord **to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” **God **has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 **
The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of BLOOD, like the DESIRE for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
**
1259 **
For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit DESIRE to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
**
1260 **
"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the
Holy Spirit **offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of **God **in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have DESIRED **Baptism **explicitly if they had known its necessity.

**1261 **
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy ❤️ of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy ❤️ of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to **Christ **through the gift of holy Baptism.

:compcoff: Link: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.shtml#art1

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Precious Lord
. . .our God and our Saviour+
. . . our All+

:signofcross:
 
+Actually the above statement is not in in complete accordance with the full teaching of the Catholic Church . . . in that it ignores completely the . . . “baptism of desire” . . . and the . . . "baptism of blood" . . . as clearly spoken of in the Catechism . . . regarding those who do not have the full knowledge or possibility of seeking out and asking for the Holy Sacrament of Baptism . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
THE CATECHISM
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
Section Two
The Seven Sacraments of the Church

CHAPTER ONE
THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION

VI. The Necessity of Baptism


**1257 **
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands **his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord **to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” **God **has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 **
The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of BLOOD, like the DESIRE for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
**
1259 **
For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit DESIRE to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
**
1260 **
"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the
Holy Spirit **offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of **God **in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have DESIRED **Baptism **explicitly if they had known its necessity.

**1261 **
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy ❤️ of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy ❤️ of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to **Christ **through the gift of holy Baptism.

:compcoff: Link: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.shtml#art1

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Precious Lord
. . .our God and our Saviour+
. . . our All+

:signofcross:
Baptism by water, desire or blood is baptism nonetheless. As to the OP, however, the Catholic Church does make us Christians simply because it is Christ’s presence on earth and the very purpose and mission of the Church is to make disciples of all nations. The Church is the people of God and one cannot identify themselves as Christian who are not a part of the people of God.
 
Yes.

Because we cannot separate “the Church” from “Christ.” The Church is the “Body of Christ”

Asking “does the Church make us Christian?” is like asking “does Christ make us Christian?” *

See the Vatican II document “Lumen Gentium” especially #8 adoremus.org/LumenGentium.html
  • (of course, Christ does not “make” us Christian in the sense of forcing us, but rather “belief in Christ” makes us Christian)
Thank you Fr. David. You said it well. One cannot separate Jesus from His Church and her teachings are His teachings. Amem
 
Anyone who knows that Christ is the Son of God and the second Person of the Trinity, and who shows his or her knowledge of Christ in action or deed is a Christian. If one identifies himself or herself as Christian, then they are Christian.
Hummm…
 
It’s not our place to deny someone’s identification as a Christian. The Catholic Church claims that one is Catholic by virtue of the Baptismal Seal made in the Trinity. We can claim that one is not Catholic, as evidenced by lack of required Baptism in the Trinity. However, we cannot claim that they don’t believe in Christ, if in fact, they do. If they say they are Christian, it’s not our place to say that they are not. It simply means they are not Catholic.
I think that the refers to those baptized by the CC.
 
It is Christ and His work within our hearts and lives that makes us Christians…not an organization or ritual washing of water.

“A man may enter the waters of baptism a “dry sinner” and exit a “wet sinner” and never change the way he lives…but no one truly Baptized and filled with the Spirit of Christ can remain unchanged, we become new creations in Christ.” is how one Friend stated it.

By His Spirit are we “baptized into Christ” and are joined to His Body.
this definition would make you an authority in defining the Church Jesus built. wouldnt it?
 
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