Italian bishop forbids Latin Mass despite motu proprio

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Shall we presume that the Msgr will take this case to the appropriate forum in the Vatican? “To mumble in Latin serves no purpose?” Is this article a joke?
 
bones_IV said:
This is just awful! What do we do with bishops who are resisting the Moto Proprio?
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What do you mean resisting? All the Pope did was allow the Latin Mass, he didn’t require it. The Bishop has the right to forbid this, just like many other issues left to his discretion.

Nohome
 
Nohome said:
What do you mean resisting? All the Pope did was allow the Latin Mass, he didn’t require it. The Bishop has the right to forbid this, just like many other issues left to his discretion.

Nohome
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I think you are mistaken. If the Pope allows the TLM to be said by any Priest without the permission of the Bishop then the Bishop HAS NO RIGHT TO FORBID IT.
 
childofmary1143 said:
I think you are mistaken. If the Pope allows the TLM to be said by any Priest without the permission of the Bishop then the Bishop HAS NO RIGHT TO FORBID IT.
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No, I am correct. The 1988 document required priests to obtain permission from their Bishop to say the Latin Mass. The new document does not require obtaining permission; however, that does not superceed a priests vow to obey their Bishop. The Pope didn’t say the Latin Mass must be said, just that Bishops are strongly encouraged to allow free use of both forms. The Bishop maintains his primacy.

Nohome
 
Nohome said:
No, I am correct. The 1988 document required priests to obtain permission from their Bishop to say the Latin Mass. The new document does not require obtaining permission; however, that does not superceed a priests vow to obey their Bishop. The Pope didn’t say the Latin Mass must be said, just that Bishops are strongly encouraged to allow free use of both forms. The Bishop maintains his primacy.

Nohome
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A Priest’s obedience to the Bishop isn’t absolute. Especially when the Bishop is disobedient to the Holy Father. Just because the Latin Mass isn’t required doesn’t give the Bishop any right whatsoever to ban it.
 
Nohome said:
No, I am correct. The 1988 document required priests to obtain permission from their Bishop to say the Latin Mass. The new document does not require obtaining permission; however, that does not superceed a priests vow to obey their Bishop. The Pope didn’t say the Latin Mass must be said, just that Bishops are strongly encouraged to allow free use of both forms. The Bishop maintains his primacy.

Nohome
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This is what I understand as well nohome. This reminds me of girl altar severs, they are allowed yet in Nebraska the bishop there has forbid them. Only boys are allowed in Nebraska. Should we say the same thing about this Bishop from Nebraska? Is he being disobedient to the Holy Father?
 
childofmary1143 said:
A Priest’s obedience to the Bishop isn’t absolute. Especially when the Bishop is disobedient to the Holy Father. Just because the Latin Mass isn’t required doesn’t give the Bishop any right whatsoever to ban it.
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A Bishop that forbids the Latin Mass isn’t being disobediant, he is using the authority granted to him as a Bishop. The prior instruction said priests could use the Latin Mass with permission, now that permission is implied unless they hear otherwise from thier Ordinary. That is what happened in this case.

Nohome
 
Nohome said:
A Bishop that forbids the Latin Mass isn’t being disobediant, he is using the authority granted to him as a Bishop. The prior instruction said priests could use the Latin Mass with permission, now that permission is implied unless they hear otherwise from thier Ordinary. That is what happened in this case.

Nohome
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The Papal authority is greater than the bishop my good friend.
 
anamchara said:
This is what I understand as well nohome. This reminds me of girl altar severs, they are allowed yet in Nebraska the bishop there has forbid them. Only boys are allowed in Nebraska. Should we say the same thing about this Bishop from Nebraska? Is he being disobedient to the Holy Father?
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The Vatican said female servers may be allowed if the bishop allows them. Even if the bishop allows this, each priest has the authority to not allow female servers if that is his desire.

Any bishop who does not allow females servers is not disobedient.
 
Nohome said:
A Bishop that forbids the Latin Mass isn’t being disobediant, he is using the authority granted to him as a Bishop. The prior instruction said priests could use the Latin Mass with permission, now that permission is implied unless they hear otherwise from thier Ordinary. That is what happened in this case.

Nohome
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The Bishop doesn’t have the authority to overrule the Pope’s Motu Proprio. He is acting ultra vires.
 
bones_IV said:
The Papal authority is greater than the bishop my good friend.
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Indeed, and in the Pope’s explanitory letter on “Summorum Pontificum” he said the following:
In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your own authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful. Each Bishop, in fact, is the moderator of the liturgy in his own Diocese
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Papa has spoken, the Bishop acted within his authority.

Nohome
 
Nohome said:
Indeed, and in the Pope’s explanitory letter on “Summorum Pontificum” he said the following:

Papa has spoken, the Bishop acted within his authority.

Nohome
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I can see that we are doing a selective quoting.
 
fix said:
The Vatican said female servers may be allowed if the bishop allows them. Even if the bishop allows this, each priest has the authority to not allow female servers if that is his desire.

Any bishop who does not allow females servers is not disobedient.
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Fix, are you sure about that? Can you site where it states this?

I think this is a case of no one has really read through the whole MP yet. Perhaps the same thing is stated for the MP…“if the bishops allow them” I really do wonder now.
 
bones_IV said:
I can see that we are doing a selective quoting.
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Would you prefer that I post the entire letter? Does the statement, in or out of context, have different meanings? Perhaps you can share a quote that contradicts this statement?

Tell you what, let’s defer debate for a month or so and see what the Pope has to say about the actions of this Bishop. I suspect he will say/do nothing, in which case I would be right in this matter. If we see any kind of censure from the Pope I’d say you were right. Time will tell, but the Pope’s comments clearly indicate that he does not wish to usurp authority from his Bishops.

Nohome
 
anamchara said:
Fix, are you sure about that? Can you site where it states this?

I think this is a case of no one has really read through the whole MP yet. Perhaps the same thing is stated for the MP…“if the bishops allow them” I really do wonder now.
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Happy to help when I can:
the Diocesan Bishop, in his role as moderator of the liturgical life in the diocese entrusted to his care, has the authority to permit service at the altar by women within the boundaries of the territory entrusted to his care. Moreover his liberty in this question cannot be conditioned by claims in favor of a uniformity between his diocese and other dioceses which would logically lead to the removal of the necessary freedom of action from the individual Diocesan Bishop. Rather, after having heard the opinion of the Episcopal Conference, he is to base his prudential judgment upon what he considers to accord more closely with the local pastoral need for an ordered development of the liturgical life in the diocese entrusted to his care, bearing in mind, among other things, the sensibilities of the faithful, the reasons which would motivate such a permission, and the different liturgical settings and congregations which gather for the Holy Mass (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 1).
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In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). …
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Congregation for Divine Worship
Letter on Altar Servers
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