Italian bishop forbids Latin Mass despite motu proprio

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If people can’t understand Latin, then indeed, it makes no sense to mumble in Latin without understanding for what you are saying.
 
JFonseka said:
If people can’t understand Latin, then indeed, it makes no sense to mumble in Latin without understanding for what you are saying.
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Sir/mam do you honestly think you’ve discovered some grave pastoral reason which Benedict has overlooked?
 
Offhand, this might seem a serious problem–the people not knowing the language the mass is in. However, I was around at the time when the Latin rite of 1962 was used. What the people had were missals with Latin and English in parallel columns, which the people used when they were at mass. And too of course because people used the Latin mass all their lives, they came to well understand what the Latin in the mass meant. There weren’t any protests then from people who said that they didn’t understand Latin, since the people understand the words used.
JFonseka said:
If people can’t understand Latin, then indeed, it makes no sense to mumble in Latin without understanding for what you are saying.
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Nohome said:
What do you mean resisting? All the Pope did was allow the Latin Mass, he didn’t require it. The Bishop has the right to forbid this, just like many other issues left to his discretion.

Nohome
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I am sorry, but you are mistaken. The Bishops have absolutely no right to forbid the latin mass, in fact they are required to offer it if requested by parishners. If they do not they must justify to Rome why they are not allowing such a beautiful thing.
 
JFonseka said:
If people can’t understand Latin, then indeed, it makes no sense to mumble in Latin without understanding for what you are saying.
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It is just like young children, they are clueless to what you are "mumbling "to them about but eventually, they learn what you are saying.
 
fightingroman said:
I am sorry, but you are mistaken. The Bishops have absolutely no right to forbid the latin mass, in fact they are required to offer it if requested by parishners. If they do not they must justify to Rome why they are not allowing such a beautiful thing.
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We will see as actions speak louder than words. If the Pope does nothing about the actions of this Bishop it will become abundantly clear that he acted within his authority.

Nohome
 
Nohome said:
We will see as actions speak louder than words. If the Pope does nothing about the actions of this Bishop it will become abundantly clear that he acted within his authority.

Nohome
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So are you demanding the Pope deal with this publicly in order to make it clear to you?
 
Nohome said:
We will see as actions speak louder than words. If the Pope does nothing about the actions of this Bishop it will become abundantly clear that he acted within his authority.

Nohome
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Really?! Tell that to Father Levis

Bishop refuses TLM in his diocese
Question from on 09-19-2007: Dear Father, I wasn’t sure if this was appropriate to state here on the forums here, but here it goes. I was dismayed when I heard this one. A bishop said, “mumbling in Latin serves no purpose”. I was thinking to myself, “really”? And he believes this? I’ve never been to a Latin Mass myself, but now I feel obliged to join what the bishop calls “mumblers”. Whatever that means. If the Pope allows the TLM to be said by any Priest without the permission of the Bishop then the Bishop HAS NO RIGHT TO FORBID IT. Am I not right here? A Priest’s obedience to the Bishop isn’t absolute. Especially when the Bishop is disobedient to the Holy Father. Just because the Latin Mass isn’t required doesn’t give the Bishop any right whatsoever to ban it.The Bishop doesn’t have the authority to overrule the Pope’s Motu Proprio. He is acting ultra vires. Father, why do we have so many bishops being defiant to the Holy Father? Either Jesus Christ gave the Church gave the Church the authority to bind and loose or he didn’t. Sometimes, Father, I think that some of these pastors of ours are Protestants in disguise. The Devil never sleeps.
Nick

Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 09-20-2007: Dear Nick, This is a true scandal of disobedience. Of course the priests of this bishop’s diocese have the duty to follow Rome and the Motu Proprio of the Holy Father,not the caricature of this bishop. This Latin Mass became the standard Mass of the Catholic Church in 1570 by St. Pius 5. It is irresponsible for anyone, especially a bishop, to interpret Latin, the official language of the Church, as “mumbling”. Let’s pray for this misinformed bishop critical of almost 500 years of Liturgical History. Fr. Bob Levis

Think before you talk.
 
bones_IV said:
It appears like Nohome is simply taking issue with the moto proprio.
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Heavens no! I am totally fine with the MP and I hope every person on the planet who desires a Latin Mass has one available to them. That said, I remain convinced that the Bishop’s actions were within his authority.

Nohome
 
bones_IV said:
Really?! Tell that to Father Levis

Bishop refuses TLM in his diocese
Question from on 09-19-2007: Dear Father, I wasn’t sure if this was appropriate to state here on the forums here, but here it goes. I was dismayed when I heard this one. A bishop said, “mumbling in Latin serves no purpose”. I was thinking to myself, “really”? And he believes this? I’ve never been to a Latin Mass myself, but now I feel obliged to join what the bishop calls “mumblers”. Whatever that means. If the Pope allows the TLM to be said by any Priest without the permission of the Bishop then the Bishop HAS NO RIGHT TO FORBID IT. Am I not right here? A Priest’s obedience to the Bishop isn’t absolute. Especially when the Bishop is disobedient to the Holy Father. Just because the Latin Mass isn’t required doesn’t give the Bishop any right whatsoever to ban it.The Bishop doesn’t have the authority to overrule the Pope’s Motu Proprio. He is acting ultra vires. Father, why do we have so many bishops being defiant to the Holy Father? Either Jesus Christ gave the Church gave the Church the authority to bind and loose or he didn’t. Sometimes, Father, I think that some of these pastors of ours are Protestants in disguise. The Devil never sleeps.
Nick

Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 09-20-2007: Dear Nick, This is a true scandal of disobedience. Of course the priests of this bishop’s diocese have the duty to follow Rome and the Motu Proprio of the Holy Father,not the caricature of this bishop. This Latin Mass became the standard Mass of the Catholic Church in 1570 by St. Pius 5. It is irresponsible for anyone, especially a bishop, to interpret Latin, the official language of the Church, as “mumbling”. Let’s pray for this misinformed bishop critical of almost 500 years of Liturgical History. Fr. Bob Levis

Think before you talk.
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While Fr. Levis is entitled to his opinion, he by no means has the last say in this matter. I always think before I speak, perhaps you could show the same courtesy.

Nohome
 
Nohome said:
While Fr. Levis is entitled to his opinion, he by no means has the last say in this matter. I always think before I speak, perhaps you could show the same courtesy.

Nohome
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Perhaps you ought to show the pope more courtesy and stop misrepresenting his documents in a pharisaic manner. May God remove the filth and gunk from the heart of your Godless soul.
 
Nohome said:
We will see as actions speak louder than words. If the Pope does nothing about the actions of this Bishop it will become abundantly clear that he acted within his authority.
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While you have had no comment on my challenging of your idea that a bishop can refuse the “implied permission” you claim is in the Motu Proprio, you’ve said something like the above several times already. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the Pope could swoop down on every instance of episcopal abuse and make things right! In reality, the process will work differently. First the priest(s) of the diocese of the bishop in question could choose to exercise their rights under the Motu Proprio and go ahead with the TLM. Failing that, the laity will have to contact the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei as stated in Article 7 of the MP. The Commission is lead by Darío Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos. Monsignor Camille Perl serves as secretary and Monsignor Mario Martini as adjunct Secretary. According to the Vatican “a group of “permanent experts” composed of representatives of the dicasteries concerned offer their advice and expertise.” It falls to the Commission to sort things out, not the Pope. And they’ll probably be busy for the next little while.
 
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Nohome:
That said, I remain convinced that the Bishop’s actions were within his authority.
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True, the bishop has the right to regulate the liturgy in his diocese. But he can only do so within the boundaries that the Holy See allows him.

Let me put it this way, do you believe that a bishop has the right to forbid a priest from saying Mass in the vernacular, even though Rome explicitly allows it for priests without permission?
 
mikee said:
Let me put it this way, do you believe that a bishop has the right to forbid a priest from saying Mass in the vernacular, even though Rome explicitly allows it for priests without permission?
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I see where you are going with this, but I don’t think it is a good comparison. This isn’t a question about the details of how a Mass is said, it is a matter of which Mass is said. The Bishop could have a number of reasons to forbid the Mass.

I think what bothered a lot of people was his comment about Latin. I suspect he has other reasons for his actions.

Nohome
 
bones_IV said:
Perhaps you ought to show the pope more courtesy and stop misrepresenting his documents in a pharisaic manner. May God remove the filth and gunk from the heart of your Godless soul.
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Look, it is abundantly clear that you disagree with me, but you are not the judge of my soul. Even if it were filled with “filth and gunk”, how dare you say it is Godless!

Nohome
 
This isn’t a question about the details of how a Mass is said, it is a matter of which Mass…
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But as a priest is given the option to celebrate Mass in the vernacular, Summorum Pontificum has now given priests the option to celebrate Mass in the extraordinary or ordinary form (at the very least within private Masses).

And yes, I also think the Bishop’s comments were offensive, and whatever his reasons for his derisive words are, they are clearly in conflict with the Holy Father’s intent and vision for issuing the Motu Proprio.
 
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