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Luigi_Daniele
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Thank you for the explanation, my friend.
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Elsa1
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It is the commercial business owned by the Vatican, of which they own many, that would now be taxed in Italy whereas before these Vatican owned businesses would be tax expempt if the Vatican had placed something like a chapel within it. They are closing the loophole that the Vatican was using to avoid paying commercial tax.Can you give examples? I suppose I’m having trouble with this (it’s Friday! My brain is drained.). I was under the impression that chapels in hotels would be taxed.
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Cristiano
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You do not know what you are talking about. The presence of a chapel did not affect the state of the for-profit part of the real estate. The tax law was and is very specific and on top of that the real problem is not with the Church’s real estate but with properties owned by businesses like banks that use flimsy foundations to avoid taxation. The Italian Episcopal Community offered to accept changes in the law in order to make the whole real estate issue more transparent across the whole spectrum.
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Elsa1
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Ho did the chapels get into the commerical property without the cooperation of the Church? This is Italy we are talking about.
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The_Scott
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Okay. Thank you very much for the clarification! That makes sense, I suppose.
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Cristiano
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What are you talking about? Give some practical examples of real estate, in Italy, where the tax status changed because of the presence of a chapel and please show that such a property was owned by the Catholic Church.
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Luigi_Daniele
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This is an offensive remark.
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Elsa1
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Here you go…direct article on this in detail…
Italy’s newly adopted austerity package aimed at saving the country from an acute debt crisis has sparked fresh controversy after exempting the Vatican from paying property taxes, Press TV reports.
Italian Prime Minster, Mario Monti’s austerity package reintroduces a property tax, also known as ICI, which allows the government to raise over 10 billion euros, about two thirds of the entire value of the package.
ICI is a local municipal tax paid by anyone who owns property or land in Italy, however the Italian Catholic Church is exempted from paying the property tax, a Press TV correspondent reported on Wednesday.
Vatican properties account for over 20 per cent of the real estate market in Italy: about 50,000 estates, 9,000 schools and 5,000 private hospitals and medical centers.
The tax exemption law states in ambiguous terms that properties with “non-exclusive commercial" purposes should be exempt from taxation.
This is while many religious buildings, convents, institutes, residences are very often being transformed into hotels in Italy and religious orders run regular commercial activities related to tourism, which accounts for a big part of the Vatican State GDP.
The association of Italian Municipalities (ANCI) prudently outlined in a study that the tax exemption of the religious body is worth roughly 700 million euros.
The European Commission is investigating the property tax exemption in favor of the Catholic Church suspecting that the exemption amounts to state aid which is against the European Law. The outcome of the investigation will be released by April 2012.
The anti-crisis package presented by Monti to the Italian Parliament for final approval also includes a pension reform that will increase the minimum pension age for women to 62 from 2012 and see both sexes retire at 66 by 2018.
Italy’s debt, totaling around 1.9 trillion is 120 percent of its Gross Domestic Product.
The government has said it will meet its target of balancing the budget by 2013 but has warned Italy economy will slip back into recession next year.
PG/JR presstv.ir/detail/214340.html
This article is even more in depth and more informative. read about all of the subsidies the Italian people pay for, for the Vatican. concordatwatch.eu/showkb.php?org_id=843&kb_header_id=13061&kb_id=37654
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Cristiano
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Offensive but sadly true. In Italy a lot of people do not hesitate to drag the Church into immoral activities, we can see that with the politicians that point at the Church when they try to pass some laws that she approves of, and then they spit on her when she tries to correct them. It is really not a choice of the Church but it is a cultural problem of a country that is going through a moral collapse.
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JerryZ
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OK this is typical of misleading news reporting.
What the government is doing is removing tax exemption on property taxes of NON religious buildings. That is churches (the buildings) are still exempted from property taxes but the Church holds many ancillary buldings that have been donated over the course of years and that are rented. Those will not be exempted and that is why the Bishop Bagnasco is in agreement.
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Elsa1
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You are both delusional. The Church in Italy has been running a fabulous business for years! You need to educate yourselves with open eyes and minds on the truth of the Vatican structure fron a fiscal and legal persepctive in Italy! The Italian people pay through the nose to support the Vatican, despite the Vatican being an independent state! They are running thousands of businesses in Italy and until now, paying ZERO tax on these businesses becase they were designated as not having a 100% commercial use!Offensive but sadly true. In Italy a lot of people do not hesitate to drag the Church into immoral activities, we can see that with the politicians that point at the Church when they try to pass some laws that she approves of, and then they spit on her when she tries to correct them. It is really not a choice of the Church but it is a cultural problem of a country that is going through a moral collapse.
Read please! concordatwatch.eu/showkb.php?org_id=843&kb_header_id=13061&kb_id=37654
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Cristiano
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Where did you find this joke of an article? The church owns 20% of the real estate in Italy? Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea of what the Vatican GDP is? I asked for a very specific and simple proof of evidence.
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Cristiano
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Is that a clinical diagnosis?
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Luigi_Daniele
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I agree on the moral collapse. My grandparents/uncle have been living in the same little town for 75 years. Never a problem. Recently their home was broken into.Offensive but sadly true. In Italy a lot of people do not hesitate to drag the Church into immoral activities, we can see that with the politicians that point at the Church when they try to pass some laws that she approves of, and then they spit on her when she tries to correct them. It is really not a choice of the Church but it is a cultural problem of a country that is going through a moral collapse.
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Elsa1
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What would you consider to be evidence? Please tell me and I will provide. Here is part of the second article I linked:
"The country’s loss in potential revenues is huge: the real estate agency, Gruppo RE, which has managed Vatican property for more than 30 years estimates that a fifth of publicly owned properties in Italy are directly or indirectly controlled by the Church. [5] And this is seen by some as a conservative estimate: the respected El Pais puts it at between 20 and 30%, including 115,000 houses, 36,000 parish buildings, 9,000 schools, and 4,000 hospitals and health centres. [6] According to the Italian Radical Party, of about 50,000 buildings around Italy owned by the Vatican at least 30,000 are used for business and commerce and are tax-free. This even includes some police stations in Rome. Through the ICI exemption, the Vatican, the largest landlord in the country, avoids paying about €2 billion a year. [7]
The Vatican also runs a large religious tourism business in Italy. [8] Each year there are 35 million religious tourists in Italy, 30 per cent of them foreigners. They occupy 120,000 Vatican-owned bedrooms, 15 per cent of Italy’s overall capacity. [9] Just as an office complex can become tax exempt through a small chapel, a convent that is run as a hotel can claim the exemption if there are also a few nuns living there.
And it’s not just exemptions from the property taxes. The Vatican also pays no sales tax (VAT) and enjoys a 50 per cent reduction on corporate tax. [10]
The Vatican Tourist Board (called ORP) runs pilgrimages to Rome from across the world. It even has its own airline. It books accomodation and runs tours with a fleet of seven double-decker buses taking visitors around for €18 each. This board pays almost no taxes."
Please find the list of sources used to compile this article.
- “Property tax relief for the Church: EU takes Italy to court”, La Repubblica, 25 June 2007, Concordat Watch translation. concordatwatch.eu/topic-9781.843
- “Italy’s Catholic Church flexible on property tax”, AP, 10 December 2011. timesleader.com/business/Italys_Catholic_Church_flexible_on_property_tax_12-10-2011.html
- John Hooper, “Italian cardinal brands tax evasion a sin: Angelo Bagnasco calls for ‘serious, relentless’ action against tax dodgers, prompting speculation of government accord”, Guardian, 24 January 2012.
guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/24/italian-cardinal-tax-evasion-sin - “Italy to End Tax Breaks on Church Enterprises, Monti Says, Bloomberg News, 16 February 2012. bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-16/italy-to-end-tax-breaks-on-church-enterprises-monti-says.html
- “Italian Catholic Church under pressure to start paying property tax”, Telegraph, 11 December 2011. telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8949226/Italian-Catholic-Church-under-pressure-to-start-paying-property-tax.html
- “Bula fiscal para la Iglesia en Italia”, El Pais, 10 December 2011. internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2011/12/10/actualidad/1323542892_053286.html
- “Austerity-hit Italians call for tax on Church real estate”, Agence France-Presse, 9 December 2011. news.ph.msn.com/business/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5636742
- “Indulgences meet tax exemptions: Fly with us to purge your sins”, Concordat Watch. concordatwatch.eu/topic-18051.843
“God’s tourists: 5 billion Euros a year”, La Repubblica, 10 November 2007, Concordat Watch translation. concordatwatch.eu/topic-9781.843
- “Austerity-hit Italians call for tax on Church real estate”, Agence France-Presse, 9 December 2011. news.ph.msn.com/business/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5636742
- “Austerity-hit Italians call for tax on Church real estate”, Agence France-Presse, 9 December 2011. news.ph.msn.com/business/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5636742
- “Austerity-hit Italians call for tax on Church real estate”, Agence France-Presse, 9 December 2011. news.ph.msn.com/business/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5636742
- “Oltre sei miliardi di euro: sono i costi pubblici della Chiesa” (“The Church costs the public more than six billion euros”), UAAR, 5 December 2011. uaar.it/news/2011/12/05/oltre-sei-miliardi-euro-sono-costi-pubblici-della-chiesa/
- “The Church has a secret tax fund: this is where a billion Euros disappear to”, La Repubblica, 25 October 2007, Concordat Watch translation. concordatwatch.eu/topic-9781.843
- Piero Moraro, “For debt-ridden Italy, charity begins at rome”, The Australian, 12 December 2011. theaustralian.com.au/news/world/for-debt-ridden-italy-charity-begins-at-rome/story-e6frg6ux-1226219326298
- “Vatican’s 100th fountain dedicated to Saint Joseph”, Rome Reports, 5 July 2010. romereports.com/palio/vaticans-100th-fountain-dedicated-to-saint-joseph-english-2396.html
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Cristiano
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An example of a Church’s for profit property that changed its tax status (became tax exempted) because a chapel was consecrated.
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beehumble
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I wonder if nuns will be taxed for renting out rooms to the public? The rooms are in convents. Not sure many know, but when going to Rome, some great, reasonably priced places to stay are within convents. The nuns use this money to keep their convents running, and I think they do donate some to charity, but even so, it is kind of a secular use of the rooms, so I wonder? The buildings ARE religious buildings - they are convents.
God bless you.
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Elsa1
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Please read the larger excerpt I provided. It gives many examples.
Seems the truth is hard to take for some.
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beehumble
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Another thought. If businesses in Rome rent space from Catholic-owned buildings, and the Church now must pay a property tax on those premises, won’t the Church just raise the rent to cover the tax, thus raising the fixed costs of all of the businesses renting the space? And then the businesses will pass this additional cost on to their customers as higher prices? Wouldn’t this hurt the economy, making things worse? it seems the net effect is more of the total pie of the country’s money ends up in government coffers, and I don’t see how that makes helps the economy; it seems it would make it worse, since this tax on the Church will indirectly end up being another tax on the people. Just a thought.
God bless you.
God bless you.
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Cristiano
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There are religious institutes that rent rooms to pilgrims, that is their religious charter. The money collected is for self support and charity work. It is not trivial to get a room in a convent and the residency rules that you have to abide to are not a good fit for non pilgrims. Again these institutes are not for profit organizations whose charter is to spread the gospel. I also think that there is a residency tax associated with the cost of the rent like in a hotel, however the property itself is not taxed.
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