It's Not About the Media

[Guyonthestreet]

…and might place a lower priority on administrative matters like implementing a firm policy on how to deal with sex abuse allegations, versus things they find much more interesting and fulfilling…

Chilling!!!

 

[catharina]

Chilling!!!

Not that chilling if one guesses that some bishops fear failure as much as the laity does.
A preference to stick to familiar duties is a part of human nature.

What might help would be if the laity (those who have expertise) would step up to help such bishops.
What’s most chilling is the laity who would rather judge and complain re bishops.
(Seem to be a fast-growing population.)

 

[Guyonthestreet]

What might help would be if the laity (those who have expertise) would step up to help such bishops.
What’s most chilling is the laity who would rather judge and complain re bishops.
(Seem to be a fast-growing population.)

The Bishops would have been given plenty of help from expert laity - but to accept it they would first have had to admit there was a serious problem with abuse.

And they never wanted to do that.

 

[catharina]

The Bishops would have been given plenty of help from expert laity - but to accept it they would first have had to admit there was a serious problem with abuse.

And they never wanted to do that.

???

Yet it’s happening in a number of dioceses around the world.
They asked for help, they received help. (I leave that research to you.)

To join in generalized complaints “about the Bishops” is counterproductive.

 

[JReducation]

**If we had women priests, ** this could have never happened. They would not have stopped screaming about it until the offenders were in jail. The offenders, the priests and their bishops should be in jail; now.!

Let’s be very careful here. You cannot heal or avoid a grave sin, as is sexual abuse with a sin that is evern more grave, heresy and apostasy. All of the 22 Catholic Churches and the 21 Orthodox Churches, which are all valid and Apostolic concur that the ordination of women would be heresy and apostasy.

Let’s not try to solve one problem by a great sin.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[catharina]

Let’s be very careful here. You cannot heal or avoid a grave sin, as is sexual abuse with a sin that is evern more grave, heresy and apostasy. All of the 22 Catholic Churches and the 21 Orthodox Churches, which are all valid and Apostolic concur that the ordination of women would be heresy and apostasy.

Let’s not try to solve one problem by a great sin.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

AMEN!

(Of course.)

 

[zab]

Thank you for your observation, I was trying to say that a women would not let a man get away with it. Neither would a man let a woman get away with it. Maybe I’m too simple for this form. If we do need more priests, I vote for women priests before married priests. Okay, say I’m dismal. Perhap they would keep each other honest, may be not, just thinking.

Women have had a big role in the progressive movement in the church that has caused so much dissent from church teaching today. It is sad when these women offer false compassion to sinners and criminals but you rarely hear a word from them about the rights of the unborn or other vulnerable innocent people. We have even read about some of them who escort women into the abortion clinic. We are supposed to condemn the sin and love the sinner. But a person who offers false compassion often excuses and sometimes even condones the sinful behaviour. I have never heard of a woman who was faithfult to the teachings of the church who wanted to pursue the vocation of priesthood.

Aside from all of the above, women have also been faithful defenders of the Catholic Faith. They accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Church and they respect the rule that women cannot be priests. There never has been and I do not believe there ever will be a validly ordained woman priest.

 

[JReducation]

Women have had a big role in the progressive movement in the church that has caused so much dissent from church teaching today. It is sad when these women offer false compassion to sinners and criminals but you rarely hear a word from them about the rights of the unborn or other vulnerable innocent people. We have even read about some of them who escort women into the abortion clinic. We are supposed to condemn the sin and love the sinner. But a person who offers false compassion often excuses and sometimes even condones the sinful behaviour. I have never heard of a woman who was faithfult to the teachings of the church who wanted to pursue the vocation of priesthood.

Aside from all of the above, women have also been faithful defenders of the Catholic Faith. They accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Church and they respect the rule that women cannot be priests. There never has been and I do not believe there ever will be a validly ordained woman priest.

There cannot be women priests, because the Church cannot teach heresy. The ordination of men is a doctrine that was handed down from the Apostles to all the Churches that they founded.

To keep this simple and on topic, you cannot cure a sin with another sin. You mentioned abortion. Let’s take that example. Some people want to allow abortion in cases of rape. You can’t cure the sin of rape or the violence that it has done to the victim by killing the child. Murder is not a cure for rape.

The same logic says that apostasy is not a cure for sexual abuse. To step outside of the Sacrament of Holy Orders and redesign it according to our desires or thoughts, is a more serious sin than sexual abuse.

Sexual abuse is a grave sin against the dignity of the victim. The more vulnerable the victim, the more heinous the sin. Redifining a sacrament is a grave sin against the power of God. It is tryiing to force the hand of God to do something that God does not want to do. God does not want to make a woman a priest. To attempt such an ordination is an attempt to force God into soemthing. It isn’t going to happen and it is more serious than sexual abuse. In sexual abuse you are violating the creature. In apostasy you are violating the Creator.

We don’t want to go there. We need to face the sins of men with the good and the noble.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Guyonthestreet]

What’s most chilling is the laity who would rather judge and complain re bishops.

No.

That’s nowhere near more chilling than an annointed shepherd of the church who aids abets conducts or conseals the abuse of children and vulnerable adults.

 

[RobbyS]

I would add to my last post, not to defend bishops that let this go on, but just as a matter of fact, different bishops have different strengths and weaknesses. Some are really good administrators. Some others, although they may be very holy and pious pastors, are actually quite ineffective at managing the day-to-day affairs of their diocese, and might place a lower priority on administrative matters like implementing a firm policy on how to deal with sex abuse allegations, versus things they find much more interesting and fulfilling, like say spiritual direction of the priests or catechizing the faithful. This may be why “voluntary” guidelines had little effect - a lot of the bishops volunteered not to do the hard, unpleasant work it takes to implement those guidelines.

The downside to the autonomy of bishops, or the famous collegiality promoted by Vatican II. No doubt in my mind–now–that there was a collapse in the morale of priests after Vatican II.

 

[catharina]

No.

That’s nowhere near more chilling than an annointed shepherd of the church who aids abets conducts or conseals the abuse of children and vulnerable adults.

Your opinion is stated above. Yet I say:

When the laity refuse to pray for the Bishops, when they mock bishops, when they spread scandalous reports about bishops, then that failure by the laity can result in various failures among Bishops. It’s hard to believe but many Catholics joined this campaign of disrespect from the 1960s onward. Surely, in the end, culpability will be shared by many. IMO, that’s terribly chilling.

 

[JReducation]

The downside to the autonomy of bishops, or the famous collegiality promoted by Vatican II. No doubt in my mind–now–that there was a collapse in the morale of priests after Vatican II.

We have to be careful here. More than 90% of these priests entered after WW II and these cases go as far back as the 1950s. It’s not a by-product of Vatican II. It predates Vatican II and goes forward until the late 80s or early 90s. Then the numbers drop significantly. Last year there were only nine reported cases in the USA. We have 25 million Catholics, maybe more. There are countries with less people and more reported cases of abuse.

I’m not proud of the abuse. But I am proud of the fact that we are getting controls in place in the USA.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Your opinion is stated above. Yet I say:

When the laity refuse to pray for the Bishops, when they mock bishops, when they spread scandalous reports about bishops, then that failure by the laity can result in various failures among Bishops. It’s hard to believe but many Catholics joined this campaign of disrespect from the 1960s onward. Surely, in the end, culpability will be shared by many. IMO, that’s terribly chilling.

What Catharina is speaking about here is something that we don’t think about too often. This is the social dimmension of sin. Sin is like a pebble falling into a lake. It has a ripple effect. The sins of the bishops affect the laity. But the sins of the laity also affect the bishops.

The point here is that the sins of one does not justify the sins of the other. St. Francis always said that we could not repay sin with sin.

I find that one of the most interesting phenomenon in this whole situation is that the same people who are attacking the bishops for their incredible mismanagement of this situation are not attacking those who take the life of the unborn.

Through the Incarnation the Son of God has revealed to us the dignity and holiness of human nature. God so loved humanity that he vested his son with the gift of humanity. Therefore, any attack on any human being is an afront to the Incarnation, because it denies the dignity that God sees in humanity.

Our position must be to protect every child and penalize those who do violence to any child, from conception forward. If we stand on our soap box and decry the actions of the bishops and the abusive priests, but we do not mention the unborn, then we are being inconsistent. Sexual abuse of a youngster is a heinous crime, the murder of a child is anathema. We have to be consistent in our effort to protect children and punish those who do harm to them.

We can only be consistent if we acknowledge that God becomes human, because humanity is sacred. God did not assume sin. He assumed human nature and human dignity. Any sin against any human being is chilling, because it has a social dimmension. A sin against another human being makes a statement about our attitude towards humanity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[catharina]

What Catharina is speaking about here is something that we don’t think about too often. This is the social dimmension of sin. Sin is like a pebble falling into a lake. It has a ripple effect. The sins of the bishops affect the laity. But the sins of the laity also affect the bishops.

The point here is that the sins of one does not justify the sins of the other. St. Francis always said that we could not repay sin with sin.

I find that one of the most interesting phenomenon in this whole situation is that the same people who are attacking the bishops for their incredible mismanagement of this situation are not attacking those who take the life of the unborn.

Through the Incarnation the Son of God has revealed to us the dignity and holiness of human nature. God so loved humanity that he vested his son with the gift of humanity. Therefore, any attack on any human being is an afront to the Incarnation, because it denies the dignity that God sees in humanity.

Our position must be to protect every child and penalize those who do violence to any child, from conception forward. If we stand on our soap box and decry the actions of the bishops and the abusive priests, but we do not mention the unborn, then we are being inconsistent. Sexual abuse of a youngster is a heinous crime, the murder of a child is anathema. We have to be consistent in our effort to protect children and punish those who do harm to them.

We can only be consistent if we acknowledge that God becomes human, because humanity is sacred. God did not assume sin. He assumed human nature and human dignity. Any sin against any human being is chilling, because it has a social dimmension. A sin against another human being makes a statement about our attitude towards humanity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

No surprise to you, Brother, I completely agree with you.

 

[zab]

I find that one of the most interesting phenomenon in this whole situation is that the same people who are attacking the bishops for their incredible mismanagement of this situation are not attacking those who take the life of the unborn.

And I dare say that I also find it odd that for all the false compassion that they offer to sinners and criminals, they have no compassion whatsoever for pedophiles.

 

[JReducation]

And I dare say that I also find it odd that for all the false compassion that they offer to sinners and criminals, they have no compassion whatsoever for pedophiles.

This is a very important spiritual point. While we must denounce sin and consequence sinners when necessary, we must never forget compassion. I am reminded of one of my beloved Franciscan brothers, who is now a saint. St. Maximilian Kolbe was the superior of the house when he was arrested by the Nazis. Several days before he had spoken to the friars about the horrors of Naziism and the gravity of its sins. But he concluded his talk to the brothers reminding them that our Holy Father Francis bound us under pain of mortal sin and eternal damnation to love them and be compassionate toward them.

When he was advised that the Nazis were coming to arrest the friars, he told the friars to take off their habits and to run as far away as they could. Some brothers did run, most stayed with him and were arrested too. But as they were being separated from each other, one brother who survived the concentration camps remembered the hatred that he felt for the Nazis as he watched them abuse his beloved superior. But Maximilian turned to him and it was as if he could read the brother’s hatred in his heart. He simply called out to the brothers at the top of his lungs, “Forget not love.”

The brother spent his time in the concentration camp praying for the Nazis and for forgiveness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[catharina]

This is a very important spiritual point. While we must denounce sin and consequence sinners when necessary, we must never forget compassion. I am reminded of one of my beloved Franciscan brothers, who is now a saint. St. Maximilian Kolbe was the superior of the house when he was arrested by the Nazis. Several days before he had spoken to the friars about the horrors of Naziism and the gravity of its sins. But he concluded his talk to the brothers reminding them that our Holy Father Francis bound us under pain of mortal sin and eternal damnation to love them and be compassionate toward them.

When he was advised that the Nazis were coming to arrest the friars, he told the friars to take off their habits and to run as far away as they could. Some brothers did run, most stayed with him and were arrested too. But as they were being separated from each other, one brother who survived the concentration camps remembered the hatred that he felt for the Nazis as he watched them abuse his beloved superior. But Maximilian turned to him and it was as if he could read the brother’s hatred in his heart. He simply called out to the brothers at the top of his lungs, “Forget not love.”

The brother spent his time in the concentration camp praying for the Nazis and for forgiveness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Beautiful example - we are called to the forgiveness of others -
especially if we hope to gain any forgiveness for ourselves from our God.

 

[BlueSapphire]

I would follow the teachings of the Church just as I am doing now:

Priests who receive the Sacrament of Ordination (Latin Rite) are not allowed to marry.
(The exceptions that exist are for ministers coming from other faith traditions.)

There will be no women ordained as priests in the Catholic Church.

How difficult is that?

 

[miguel]

What Catharina is speaking about here is something that we don’t think about too often. This is the social dimmension of sin. Sin is like a pebble falling into a lake. It has a ripple effect. The sins of the bishops affect the laity. But the sins of the laity also affect the bishops.

The point here is that the sins of one does not justify the sins of the other. St. Francis always said that we could not repay sin with sin.

I find that one of the most interesting phenomenon in this whole situation is that the same people who are attacking the bishops for their incredible mismanagement of this situation are not attacking those who take the life of the unborn.

Through the Incarnation the Son of God has revealed to us the dignity and holiness of human nature. God so loved humanity that he vested his son with the gift of humanity. Therefore, any attack on any human being is an afront to the Incarnation, because it denies the dignity that God sees in humanity.

Our position must be to protect every child and penalize those who do violence to any child, from conception forward. If we stand on our soap box and decry the actions of the bishops and the abusive priests, but we do not mention the unborn, then we are being inconsistent. Sexual abuse of a youngster is a heinous crime, the murder of a child is anathema. We have to be consistent in our effort to protect children and punish those who do harm to them.

We can only be consistent if we acknowledge that God becomes human, because humanity is sacred. God did not assume sin. He assumed human nature and human dignity. Any sin against any human being is chilling, because it has a social dimmension. A sin against another human being makes a statement about our attitude towards humanity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Excellent post as usual JR. If you don’t mind, I would change the word interesting in your post to disturbing. What’s so often missing in this discussion is perspective. We have 1.3 million annual surgical abortions in the US. According to the John Jay report, the Catholic Church had 10,667 documented cases of clergy sexual abuse of minors over 50 years. It’s a disturbing blindness to focus only on the Bishop’s mishandling of some of these cases without also taking a hard look at how we as individuals are responsible for the much worse and much more prevalent evil of abortion.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

Folks are questioning why doesn’t the Vatican come out and deny these allegations, make more of a public statement about them, etc… And yes there does appear to be a bit of defensiveness in the way some are “blaming the media”.

This is a difficult issue and these are difficult times. My wife and I left the Church for 7 years to go to a Protestant one to avoid these issues. Thankfully the Church has done a lot during that time period, but as I come back in communion with Her we see the horrors still affecting today.

One of the great gifts we have is The Sacrament of Reconciliation, and we understand forgiveness and in a sense moving forward with our lives. But we need to understand that trust is broken, and new stories are likely to unfold for sometime to come. We need to acknowledge, and keep acknowledging the crimes of the past, keep denouncing these horrible crimes, keep seeking justice, keep asking for forgiveness, and keep meeting with victims.

One good move was for the Vatican to publish the Guidelines recently on their website. Also the USCCB to keep the stats on their webpage too.

Unfortunately America was seen as the bastion of hedonism and liberalism… but it started in western Europe, and only now is it becoming clear how naive some were in thinking the abuse problem was limited mainly to the US.

The Church cannot act fast enough now, but it can act decidedly (I’m not insinuating that it’s not).

This is a bit a no-win situation for the Church right now, it’s paying for the sin of the past and will be for some time. But this can be a win-win situation for children in the future.

Is there a bit of a “witch hunt” and anti-Catholicism going on right now? Sure there is. We need to pray First; then Second, acknowledge that crimes have been committed in the past (and still go on) and humbly ask for forgiveness; Third, gently point out that corrective actions have been taken and how current situations are dealt with today differ from those in the past ; and Fourth, ever so gently, point out the errors in reports, and provide accurate information.