It's not "his problem"

[EasterJoy]

There seems to be a lot of NPD talk on this board (and my husband meet DSM criteria as well).

Is this a sign of a bigger societal issue??

I think it fair to say that American society has become far more permissive of people who are openly self-centered. The fraction of people who act out in anti-social ways is far higher here than in many other regions of the world. The idea of having a conscience is not “learn and impress the moral law to the extent that it guides you when you think your acts will not become known” or “your self-respect requires that you act in a way that deserves respect”, but rather “act according to what your naked uninformed sense of what is best”. That is an open invitation to keep one’s conscience anesthetized and infantile. For instance, people tend to romanticize children as being automatically wonderful and giving human beings. Have these people actually been children? Kids are sometimes wonderfully empathetic and giving, but at other times kids are totally self-centered and selfish, not to mention given to violence when they don’t get their way. Some are in the latter condition essentially all of the time!

Teaching morals as a simple matter of “how would that feel if someone did that to you?” has its good points, but it is carte blanche to sociopaths, narcissists, and the merely self-centered, because as long as they get what they want, they don’t care how anybody else feels. A moral atmosphere in which a person actually needs the respect of others to get anywhere makes a much bigger impression on that sort. They are capable of acting in a moral manner, but there has to be a reason other than empathy.

Having said that, if I found myself becoming more and more certain that I had married someone who lacks the capacity for empathy, someone who treats others well only as long as it leads to him getting what he wanted for himself, I think I’d conclude the man was not capable of marriage. I’d be duty-bound to do what I could to prove the contrary, but I fear very much that has to be entertained as a real possibility in the OPs case, as other posters have indicated. There is such a thing as an attempt at marriage that was destined to fail. In a society in which the estimates of the prevelance of people who have an essentially sociopathic operating system are as high as 4%, that’s going to be way too many marriages, but such is the population of these United States, alas.

 

[SurlyMermaid]

That’s exactly what happened to me. He turns back into mr. prince once I make plans to leave. then within 24 hrs later a mad man. A friend of mine (Christian) says it’s like multiple personality disorder. There’s names actually of evil spirits she said that date back to biblical times that can be responsible for such sickness. You’d have to look it up yourself, as i just heard it from her and did not look into it.

Sounds like hubby. He’s always right though.

 

[The_Bucket]

To my knowledge, he hasn’t gone to Reconciliation since last April. When I ask why he won’t go with me, he says “I don’t need to.”

This is what stood out for me. If he does not have a personality disorder or other major mental health issues, I think your answer is here. I turned into a monster when I was steeped in sin caused by addiction. There were times when the “real me” peeked out here and there but otherwise I was in a hell of my own making and dragging everyone down with me.

Sadly, your situation sounds worse. I know I hurt my wife terribly but I acknowledged my offenses. I lied about the source of my problems, of course, out of shame and fear. But I did not blame her for things. Eventually she became convinced that she was the problem, but it was not because I blamed her. More that I just continued to be the way that I was convinced her that the issue was with her and not with me; that I was lying about her being the problem because I didn’t want to hurt her. What utter nonsense.

The problem was with me and it is surely with your husband. I do suggest that you seek counseling and a mental health evaluation because a turn like this within a year of being married is not normal at all.

 

[KCT]

If he won’t get help, go on your own. If he doesn’t want you to, too bad. If he promises to do better in order to get you not to go, go anyway.

 

[SurlyMermaid]

This is what stood out for me. If he does not have a personality disorder or other major mental health issues, I think your answer is here. I turned into a monster when I was steeped in sin caused by addiction. There were times when the “real me” peeked out here and there but otherwise I was in a hell of my own making and dragging everyone down with me.

Sadly, your situation sounds worse. I know I hurt my wife terribly but I acknowledged my offenses. I lied about the source of my problems, of course, out of shame and fear. But I did not blame her for things. Eventually she became convinced that she was the problem, but it was not because I blamed her. More that I just continued to be the way that I was convinced her that the issue was with her and not with me; that I was lying about her being the problem because I didn’t want to hurt her. What utter nonsense.

The problem was with me and it is surely with your husband. I do suggest that you seek counseling and a mental health evaluation because a turn like this within a year of being married is not normal at all.

Thank you for sharing this insight. I know for me it was very useful to read. :hug1: Best to you.

 

[PartoftheBody]

Wow, I’m very touched by your concern and prayers. Thank you

I agree that I should probably see a priest soon. I’ve been hesitant, partly because I recently moved and haven’t developed a relationship with any of the priests near here yet.

The thought that he might have Narcissistic Personality Disorder has crossed my mind, and I realize the outlook is usually grim for those who have it. Perhaps I’m naive, but I still believe nothing is impossible for God, however unlikely it is. I have asked St Jude’s intercession.

Much to my surprise, this morning, my husband agreed to go to a couples’ communication class at the local community center. While I know this is not going to magically solve everything, I’m hopeful this is a step in the right direction.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Praise God for that!



As long as he doesn’t just use it as a way to gain even more techniques with which to abuse you, maybe it will help.

Yes, God can work miracles, but don’t waste your entire life hoping for one, while being destroyed by the abuse. Miracles can include being able to get away from such a person and start to heal, too.

 

[EasterJoy]

People with these personality disorders are often quite able to learn which side their bread is buttered on. They can live decent lives, if decent lives seem to them to be to their advantage. That may be enough, as long as you do not forget that this may be the way he looks at the world. Don’t ever forget, though, that he may have that side to him. If it is there, it always will be…kind of like keeping an elephant or a bear, it can be done, you can even have an affectionate relationship, but you always have to be aware of what the animal is capable. Don’t fear that side of him, but remember that it is there.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

People with these personality disorders are often quite able to learn which side their bread is buttered on. They can live decent lives, if decent lives seem to them to be to their advantage. That may be enough, as long as you do not forget that this may be the way he looks at the world. Don’t ever forget, though, that he may have that side to him. If it is there, it always will be…kind of like keeping an elephant or a bear, it can be done, you can even have an affectionate relationship, but you always have to be aware of what the animal is capable. Don’t fear that side of him, but remember that it is there.

I have just done some research and found that, if treated early in their lives, psychopaths and sociopaths CAN be rehabilitated and their consciences can be constructed. There is some amount of success with some treatments. But I don’t think there has been much success with adults. I wish there could be. At least there is hope that, if identified early, we may be able to prevent the next BTK or Ted Bundy.

 

[exoflare]

But I don’t think there has been much success with adults.

What about for sub-sociopathic narcissists?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

What about for sub-sociopathic narcissists?

You mean people who are borderline cases? I think anything is possible for God, but it’s not easy to affect an adult, where a child’s psychological structure has not really hardened yet, and so might be sculpted.

 

[EasterJoy]

What about for sub-sociopathic narcissists?

There is a whole spectrum, and nothing is impossible for God. Besides, even the majority of sociopaths do not wind up in jail, let alone become another Ted Bundy. They don’t become Mother Theresa, but being a sociopath doesn’t make one into a drug dealer or a serial killer.

 

[exoflare]

You mean people who are borderline cases?

I mean adults who are narcissists, but not to the extent that they’re sociopaths (which is basically just the extreme end of the NPD spectrum). I only say that because you specified sociopaths and psychopaths.

 

[exoflare]

Besides, even the majority of sociopaths do not wind up in jail, let alone become another Ted Bundy. They don’t become Mother Theresa, but being a sociopath doesn’t make one into a drug dealer or a serial killer.

Oh believe me, I know. That stereotype really annoys me because I think it’s a huge reason so many people allow themselves to be duped by sociopaths and never realize until it’s too late.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I mean adults who are narcissists, but not to the extent that they’re sociopaths (which is basically just the extreme end of the NPD spectrum). I only say that because you specified sociopaths and psychopaths.

One of the authors I have read recently delineates between “malignant” and “benign” sociopaths. The malignant ones are the ones who try to destroy others. The benign ones just put themselves above everyone else, not necessarily with the aim to destroy, just maximize their own rewards.

 

[cviolette]

A good book to read is the Gas Light Effect by Dr Robin Stern. It really opened my eyes. Even see the stages I went through, to the point of wanting to die. Thinking I should be happy and not understanding why I am so miserable.

It is much easier to survive a relationship when you know what is going on. My husband is still trying to gaslight me but I am not participating in it anymore. I am not always second guessing myself and doubting what he said or meant. I see him controlling and manipulating me and am not falling for it.

 

[PartoftheBody]

I thought I’d post an update about my situation, since I know there are others out there in similar situations. Your prayers and insights have been so valuable to me!

In terms of my husband, he’s pretty much the same. He’ll be his old, kind self for a few days, then if I do something “wrong,” I get the yelling, insults, etc. Or he’ll decide to lob things at me (not hard) or do something scary or hurtful “to see the look on my face.” Then he’ll go back to being kind as if nothing happened. Sometimes I feel like I’m a kid and he’s a tormenting older brother.

I’ve read a couple more books (on my e-reader so my husband doesn’t see what I’m reading and get angry). I read The Gaslight Effect as one poster suggested, but found The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverly Engel more helpful. Books, of course, can only do so much. I continue to work with my therapist, who is very supportive and isn’t pushing me into any particular course of action, which I like.

The communication class was helpful for me, but not so much for him. He half-heartedly participated and spent much of the time focusing on my flaws in communication or making fun of the exercises and other class members. I learned a few new skills and got some food for thought.

As petty as it sounds, I’ve started keeping a log of his abusive behaviors. It not only helps me keep track, but it also helps me get them out of my head (I tend to play scenes in my head over and over again). Then when he says things didn’t happen as I recall them, I can assure myself that they did. I pay more attention now when others defend me or my point of view to him or give me a compliment that is in direct opposition to his insults.

I finally met with a parish priest today. As one poster suggested, I printed out this post (with updates) and showed it to him. To my surprise, the first words out of his mouth were, “You have grounds for an annulment, and this is no way for a husband to treat a wife.” It was hard to hear, but I knew he was right.
He told me of another couple he worked with in a similar situation, and how the husband didn’t start to make real changes until the wife moved out. As we talked more, we decided that I didn’t need to necessarily start a trial separation today, but that if things didn’t change in a long-term way, this is probably the path I need to take.

I continue to hope that God can soften his heart and that we can have a truly loving marriage that models God’s love. Please pray for me and others in similar or worse situations. God bless!

 

[EasterJoy]

I thought I’d post an update about my situation, since I know there are others out there in similar situations. Your prayers and insights have been so valuable to me!

In terms of my husband, he’s pretty much the same. He’ll be his old, kind self for a few days, then if I do something “wrong,” I get the yelling, insults, etc. Or he’ll decide to lob things at me (not hard) or do something scary or hurtful “to see the look on my face.” Then he’ll go back to being kind as if nothing happened. Sometimes I feel like I’m a kid and he’s a tormenting older brother.

I’ve read a couple more books (on my e-reader so my husband doesn’t see what I’m reading and get angry). I read The Gaslight Effect as one poster suggested, but found The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverly Engel more helpful. Books, of course, can only do so much. I continue to work with my therapist, who is very supportive and isn’t pushing me into any particular course of action, which I like.

The communication class was helpful for me, but not so much for him. He half-heartedly participated and spent much of the time focusing on my flaws in communication or making fun of the exercises and other class members. I learned a few new skills and got some food for thought.

As petty as it sounds, I’ve started keeping a log of his abusive behaviors. It not only helps me keep track, but it also helps me get them out of my head (I tend to play scenes in my head over and over again). Then when he says things didn’t happen as I recall them, I can assure myself that they did. I pay more attention now when others defend me or my point of view to him or give me a compliment that is in direct opposition to his insults.

I finally met with a parish priest today. As one poster suggested, I printed out this post (with updates) and showed it to him. To my surprise, the first words out of his mouth were, “You have grounds for an annulment, and this is no way for a husband to treat a wife.” It was hard to hear, but I knew he was right.
He told me of another couple he worked with in a similar situation, and how the husband didn’t start to make real changes until the wife moved out. As we talked more, we decided that I didn’t need to necessarily start a trial separation today, but that if things didn’t change in a long-term way, this is probably the path I need to take.

I continue to hope that God can soften his heart and that we can have a truly loving marriage that models God’s love. Please pray for me and others in similar or worse situations. God bless!

He lobs things and does things that seem scary to you because he enjoys seeing the emotional reaction of fear or hurt feelings in you? And this is an adult? This does not sound like someone who is merely self-centered. That is sick. It also makes me think of a passage of Anna Sewell’s novel, Black Beauty:

“…he talked to all the boys very seriously about cruelty, and said how hard-hearted and cowardly it was to hurt the weak and the helpless; but what stuck in my mind was this, he said that cruelty was the devil’s own trade-mark, and if we saw any one who took pleasure in cruelty we might know who he belonged to, for the devil was a murderer from the beginning, and a tormentor to the end. On the other hand, where we saw people who loved their neighbors, and were kind to man and beast, we might know that was God’s mark.”
From Chapter 13, The Devil’s Trade Mark theequinest.com/black-beauty-ch13/

I would seriously re-visit whether you don’t need to separate today, and I would absolutely re-visit the idea of trial. For your own sake, leave as soon as you can arrange to safely do it.

When your priest told you that you have grounds for annulment, he was saying that just based on your husband’s behavior, your marriage is suffering from a defect so profound that your attempt at marriage was doomed from the beginning. He’s not saying you have a bad actor who needs to clean up his act–the choice to sin after the fact does not render a marriage null. He is saying that there is a fault line running through the foundation of the building of your marriage. You really ought to get out as soon as possible, because when the day comes when it he decides you’ve crossed a line with him, you are toast. If your marriage is ever going to be re-built, which I seriously doubt is possible, it will have to be re-built from the ground up. Do not even think about doing it without a supervising therapist who is well-experienced in dealing with sociopaths and sociopathic behaviors.

First see a lawyer, and get advice on how to separate safely and without losing all your assets. Do not tell your husband you are seeing a lawyer. Then get help to make a plan to leave and to have other people to support you–for instance, to gather your things from your home for you or with you, so you won’t be subject to physical or emotional attack or persuaded to change your mind. Do not ever leave yourself alone with him after you tell him you are leaving. Never.

Go to a local women’s domestic violence organization. They will be thrilled to get someone wise enough to get out before her tormenter put her in the hospital (or worse). Of course I could be wrong, but consequences will be dire if my fears are realized. If you think your husband has screamed at you before, just try to begin to imagine what he might do if he is confronted with the situation where it is *you *rejecting him. If his initial strategy of sugaring you up doesn’t work, he may blow a gasket, and take his anger out on you.

 

[Bill_7154]

So here’s where I need advice:

1. How do I convince him to go to counseling without resorting to separation?
2. If I do proceed with a trial separation, what do I tell my loved ones when they ask what is going on? I don’t want to ruin his reputation, but at the same time (and perhaps this is pride on my part) I don’t want it to seem like we had one little fight and I want to split up over it.
3. What do I do if he still refuses counseling after the trial separation?

Thanks for reading my long story

As to your story I can totally relate, the only real difference being I’m a male and my wife is the one who criticizes, picks fights, etc and always blames me. No matter what the issue, how it started, etc it is always 100% my fault. I have tried to reason with her in such was as saying “Are you claiming that I control the words that come out of your mouth, and the volume you use?” “Are you claiming that if you throw something, that is not an action of yours, which you are responsible for, but something I am responsible for?” This has gotten me almost nowhere. We went to counseling and this didn’t help much, the couselor recommended anger mgmt for my wife, she refused. She’s like the male version of old school abuser (i.e. wife doesn’t have dinner ready when husband gets home from work so husband throws a fit, possibly hitting her, and then blames her because she didn’t have dinner ready… and is completely unable to see his behavior as a separate issue.

To your questions:

1. Tough, tough one. Giving him an ultimatum might backfire and make him want to walk, or make things worse. Did you say your seeing a therapist yourself? If so, maybe you could talk with that person about possible ways to try to get him to go to marriage counseling with you.
2. I did separate from my wife for about 2 months. Her behavior got WAY out of control so I felt I had no choice. I shared with family my wife’s behavior while also explaining that I am far from perfect myself and my wife has a lot of valid complaints about me. I also explained (and family knew) we had ongoing issues, so it wasn’t a surprise. I needed to tell my work because my wife’s behavior got so bad that she ruined me getting a 2nd job by finding out through my calendar the name of the company and person who interviewed me and actually sent that person a fax as well as left several messages saying a bunch of hateful things about me. She also looked up to find out who that person’s boss was and did the same thing. They got afraid that she would show up at the job and make a scene, so aside from embarrassing me, got me unhired. She also threatened to show up at my job of 20 years and make a scene. I told my work and met with HR so they knew what was going on and made a plan if she did show up that she would be escorted off the property. Fortunately she never did this. This was part of her reaction to my separating because of her abuse. So I think you can generalize and say you’ve been trying to work things out, neither of you is perfect (and be more explicit about his behavior depending on who your are talking to, such as your family for example) and feel that a trial separation at this point is prudent. I didn’t separate until about a year after the failed counseling and escalation in her behavior to where she got physical and was totally out of control and I literally didn’t feel safe living there, despite it was making me crazy when one’s home is supposed to be a place you can go to have peace.
3. Another very, very tough one. I don’t feel like I"m in a position to answer that. I think you might want to consider talking about this with loved ones, a therapist, your priest, etc…

God Bless,
Bill

 

[TheRealJuliane]

If you have someone to stay with, go now. Pack your bags, call movers, arrange for them to be there when he’s at work. Go now. Pray once you get away from him. This is still abuse and your priest knows it. I wish your therapist WOULD push you a little more, it’s not right to continue to counsel someone in abuse and not recommend that they get out.

p.s. Your abuse log sounds like a really good idea, and should make your therapist do this

It will be sad to look it over in a couple of years and see how much you put up with before you got away…