It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

[Church_Militant]

You will find that most of us are much more like to be prima scriptura

adherents.Which also fails for the same reason as SS.

Neither one has a basis in scripture. You can make your case for it if you wish. It might be the best you’ve offered so far.

Not to mention that it would actually be on topic.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Which also fails for the same reason as SS.

Neither one has a basis in scripture. You can make your case for it if you wish. It might be the best you’ve offered so far.

Not to mention that it would actually be on topic.

Agree, prima scriptura has no scripture as a proof text. It is a position adopted as one who seeks to know and keep the will of God. I believe that many things can lead me to this end. Among them are (as I’ve already mentioned) scripture, reason, tradition, and experience. Each has its own unique role to play in guiding and shaping my faith and practice.

For instance, when it comes to celebrating a holiday be it Trick or Treat at Halloween or using the shorthand Xmas at Christmas, I have to decide if these are appropriate things for me to be engaged in. Scripture doesn’t speak directly to any of these. But it does lay down some principles such as keeping God #1 in my life, Do these things violate that principle? Well, if I really believed that I was consorting with devils and spirits perhaps Halloween would, but reason tells me that this is not what is going on with children asking for candy. Experience causes me to reflect on whether or not it is good to pass out candy, are we teaching our children to beg, how safe/wise is it to encourage kids to go door to door on dark October evenings? I recognize that the traditions of the secular culture have origins both in pagan and church traditions. And I sift all of this together. In the end, I always make sure to have some candy for the few kids that just might show up, because I think that to turn them away would not be the loving thing to do, and scripture calls me to make love my dominant motive for all I do.

I do the same with countless other issues from my understanding of who to vote for in an election to my views on capital punishment to my volunteering down at the local food shelter. Always these four are weighed.

But, for me, scripture must be the primary shaper of my values. For if God says in his word that life is precious and to be preserved, then it doesn’t matter if experience, tradition, and reason all argue on the other side. God’s Word trumps them all, for it is the only thing I have that I know comes directly from God, and I cannot go against what I understand to be his clear will.

 

[Lampo]

We simply have different understandings of what Christ meant and who he was referring to when he said that he was going to establish his Church.

How can that be if both of you were guided by the Holy Spirit when reading the exact same Scriptures? How do you resolve this difference in understanding?

 

[dragon]

I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.

This also is for some of you Catholics that come in here and all but demand to know where some Catholic teaching or practice is found in the Bible.

The reason I am posting this is because I have read the Bible (all 73 books of it!) many times and have yet to find anything that supports this idea. I have concluded that the Catholic Church is correct in teaching that the Bible does not say this and therefore it is error.

I want all of us Catholics to understand that this is a fundamental doctrinal error of some communities of n-C Christianity and so there is no reason to get distressed when someone comes at you with this stuff, because the fact of the matter is …it’s NOT in the Bible itself.

I am not a catholic so I will take a stab at your question.

It is my understanding that the Bible is the word of God and should be followed. So one could assume that God thought this was enough to follow him to everlasting life. The only thing that was needed was to believe in him and put your faith in him.

(Edited as off topic) What I find interesting that it was man that was the one that decided what should be placed in the Bible. Sounds like man was trying to decide which words were important and which were not. This was not decided until the 4th century.

(Edited as off topic)

 

[dragon]

How can that be if both of you were guided by the Holy Spirit when reading the exact same Scriptures? How do you resolve this difference in understanding?

We all see God with different eyes. No one sees God the same way as anyone else because no one is the same as another. I get from the Bible that belief is a very personal matter so in essence there are many gods. Each person has a different god because we all see differently.

The important thing is the basic beliefs. Love, help your fellow man, tolerance(when I say this I mean that since we all see God differently we need to let everyone practice their belief as they wish), compassion, others escape my mind at this time.

 

[Lampo]

We all see God with different eyes. No one sees God the same way as anyone else because no one is the same as another. I get from the Bible that belief is a very personal matter so in essence there are many gods. Each person has a different god because we all see differently.

Sounds like a heresy to me.

The important thing is the basic beliefs. Love, help your fellow man, tolerance(when I say this I mean that since we all see God differently we need to let everyone practice their belief as they wish), compassion, others escape my mind at this time.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen

 

[Lampo]

It is my understanding that the Bible is the word of God and should be followed.

Where did you get this notion?

 

[distracted]

I am not a catholic so I will take a stab at your question.

It is my understanding that the Bible is the word of God and should be followed. So one could assume that God thought this was enough to follow him to everlasting life. The only thing that was needed was to believe in him and put your faith in him.

He most important thing in the Bible, being mentioned the most, was the care of the needy, the poor, the sick, anyone less fortunate than you. To be tolerate, to good works not as a way to get to heaven but as a way to show your faith.

God stated that any words added to his words by man should be punished. So if it is not in the Bible how can it be God,s words?? What I find interesting that it was man that was the one that decided what should be placed in the Bible. Sounds like man was trying to decide which words were important and which were not. This was not decided until the 4th century.

I will ask this question. Why does the Catholic Church not follow the Ten Commandments as they are written in the Bible?? They change them around it seems.

Ten Commandments found in Genesis and Deut. God said that man should have no idols. The Catholic Church sure has a ton of idols. Pray to no one except me, but the church has her people pray to all kinds of things: Saints, icons, the Pope. It seems to me that the church prehaps has lost her way a little.

Not nice to change God’s words to fit your needs.

God’s words come to us through the Word and through His Church also… after all, you can’t stuff all of God or even all of what he wants us to know… into a small book…

anyhow… the Church teaches that you have to be Catholic to be saved… that it is very difficult to be saved if you are not officilly a practicing member of Christ’s Church… In other words it is difficult ot believe everyting the Catholic Church teaches and still remain outside the Church… and that is the only way a non-C can be saved… by believing everyting the Church teaches and being submissive to the supreme pontiff…

they are discussing this @ the Traditional Catholicism forum…

i think it is called No salvation outside the Church?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I am not a catholic so I will take a stab at your question.

Usually Lutherans will state that they are catholic, just not Catholic. Are you sure you want to say you are not catholic… keeping in mind the Nicene Creed?

We believe… in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…?

Still don’t believe you are catholic?

It is my understanding that the Bible is the word of God and should be followed.

Catholics agree. You’re not suggesting that Catholic believe that the Bible shouldn’t be followed are you?

So one could assume that God thought this was enough to follow him to everlasting life.

Why do we need to assume? Surely we can find this belief in the Bible right? So we don’t have to make assumptions on something as important as this?

God stated that any words added to his words by man should be punished. So if it is not in the Bible how can it be God,s words??

Uh-oh. What happened to ‘assuming’? Now it has to be found in the Bible which does what to your belief that all we need is the Bible? Since that belief can’t be found in the Bible and must be ‘assumed’?

(Edited as off topic)

God bless you

 

[JustaServant]

Usually Lutherans will state that they are catholic, just not Catholic. Are you sure you want to say you are not catholic… keeping in mind the Nicene Creed?

We believe… in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…?

Still don’t believe you are catholic?

Catholics agree. You’re not suggesting that Catholic believe that the Bible shouldn’t be followed are you?

Why do we need to assume? Surely we can find this belief in the Bible right? So we don’t have to make assumptions on something as important as this?

Uh-oh. What happened to ‘assuming’? Now it has to be found in the Bible which does what to your belief that all we need is the Bible? Since that belief can’t be found in the Bible and must be ‘assumed’?

It was my understanding that Lutherans and Catholics accepted the same numbering of the Ten Commandments.

If you scroll down on this Wikipedia page you will see that the Lutheran and Catholic 10 commandments are numbered the same.

And if you don’t trust wikipedia, here is the break down on the Lutheran 10 Commandments:

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencommandments

So how come the Lutheran Church doesn’t follow the 10 commandments how they are listed in the Bible? It seems that they, “changed them around”

The Catholic Church does not have one single idol. Maybe after you have read up on what the Lutheran Church teaches you can read up on what the Catholic Church teaches?

God bless you

A ‘Lutheran’ that doesn’t know his own religion.
Hmmmm.

 

[Lampo]

… and that is the only way a non-C can be saved… by believing everyting the Church teaches and being submissive to the supreme pontiff…

That’s not what the Church teaches. Here is what the Church teaches:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. - CCC 846

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. - CCC 847

Outside the Church there is no salvation

 

[distracted]

Usually Lutherans will state that they are catholic, just not Catholic. Are you sure you want to say you are not catholic… keeping in mind the Nicene Creed?

We believe… in one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…?

Still don’t believe you are catholic?

Catholics agree. You’re not suggesting that Catholic believe that the Bible shouldn’t be followed are you?

Why do we need to assume? Surely we can find this belief in the Bible right? So we don’t have to make assumptions on something as important as this?

Uh-oh. What happened to ‘assuming’? Now it has to be found in the Bible which does what to your belief that all we need is the Bible? Since that belief can’t be found in the Bible and must be ‘assumed’?

It was my understanding that Lutherans and Catholics accepted the same numbering of the Ten Commandments.

If you scroll down on this Wikipedia page you will see that the Lutheran and Catholic 10 commandments are numbered the same.

And if you don’t trust wikipedia, here is the break down on the Lutheran 10 Commandments from their Book of Concord:

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencommandments

So how come the Lutheran Church doesn’t follow the 10 commandments how they are listed in the Bible? It seems that they, “changed them around”

The Catholic Church does not have one single idol. Maybe after you have read up on what the Lutheran Church teaches you can read up on what the Catholic Church teaches?

God bless you

read post 411

LUtherans are not Catholic… Many Catholics aren’t even Catholic…

 

[distracted]

Check.

Check.

Whoa. Not checked!!!

You made a mighty big jump there from talking about the totality of the Church to talking exclusively about the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit is indeed present in every Christian, and where those Christians assemble in the name of Christ, there too is the Church (yes, the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church) also present. The Catholic Church does not have exclusive claim to these terms. I’ve heard the arguments on plenty of other threads. If you haven’t heard mine before, I’m sure you’ve heard others that parrallel them. So, it would be a waste of time for either of us to reiterate them here again. We simply have different understandings of what Christ meant and who he was referring to when he said that he was going to establish his Church. And since we are both confident and comfortable in what we believe, and we both recognize each other’s position in Christ as secure through baptism and faith, then I suggest we just leave it at that.

Do you think that the Holy Spirit just speaks to the Church, or does he speak to individuals on a personal level as well?

When he speaks to the Church, is it through speaking to the whole of it, or speaking through one individual within it?

please read post 411 and let me know your opinion…

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

read post 411

LUtherans are not Catholic… Many Catholics aren’t even Catholic…

You completely missed my point distracted. The poster I was responding to, who is a Lutheran, stated that he was not catholic. Lutherans usually believe they are catholic, just not Catholic. You have seriously never heard the ‘Catholic v. catholic’ argument? Big ‘c’ little ‘c’?

Whether or not you believe Lutherans are catholic was not my point, but rather that a Lutheran was saying that he he was not a catholic… which is not the Lutheran position. The point I was trying to make is; if he didn’t understand his own faith, how well could he understand the Catholic faith? Which he stated has, “many idols”? If he is wrong on his own Lutheran faith (ie the numbering of the 10 commandments, not considering himself catholic) how must more likely is it that he is mistaken on Catholic beliefs?

God bless

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Check.

Check.

Whoa. Not checked!!!

You made a mighty big jump there from talking about the totality of the Church to talking exclusively about the Catholic Church. [SIGN]The Holy Spirit is indeed present in every Christian, [/SIGN]and where those Christians assemble in the name of Christ, there too is the Church (yes, the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church) also present. The Catholic Church does not have exclusive claim to these terms. I’ve heard the arguments on plenty of other threads. If you haven’t heard mine before, I’m sure you’ve heard others that parrallel them. So, it would be a waste of time for either of us to reiterate them here again. We simply have different understandings of what Christ meant and who he was referring to when he said that he was going to establish his Church. And since we are both confident and comfortable in what we believe, and we both recognize each other’s position in Christ as secure through baptism and faith, then I suggest we just leave it at that.

Do you think that the Holy Spirit just speaks to the Church, or does he speak to individuals on a personal level as well?

When he speaks to the Church, is it through speaking to the whole of it, or speaking through one individual within it?

I cannot say that I agree with you that the HS is present with every Christian. So we disagree with that. Christian or non-christian where sin is God isn’t.

Second do I agree that the HS can be within People. Yes I do. Agreed.

Do I agree with scripture where two or more are present and pray in my name I am there. Yep I agree there.

Now here is the big Fat difference. Where in the bible does it say that All People have the gift of the HS to teach the gospel.

Because the teaching of the bible say that Jesus picked certain people to do that. He actually told the Apostles to be very particular on who They Choose to become teachers.

So if you can show me where scripture says that we all have the Power of the Holy Spirit to Teach I would like to see that. Because I missed it. Now yes we are to spread the good news. But it must be what we were taught by the Church not ourself. Scripture says that man cannot do that only the HS can. SO if you can show me where in Tradition, Divine or written scripture that is a teaching I will agree with you.

We go by the Church and the Priest and Pope Bishop etc because they were given the Power of the HS to teach by the laying of hands. BUt until I receive HO which isn’t going to happen because for one I am a women, two I am married, so it does not seem to be that GOd choose me to do that.

When he speaks to the Church that is a whole different ball game. If the Church speaks on Gods behalf its the truth, and will never change. Big difference. I have no power to talk on Gods behalf. He did not choose me for the job. Thats for the Church. Only the Pope and Bishops can do that.

 

[rinnie]

Grace Seeker, I don’t mean to push you or nothing but could you put me on your list to answer first.

I am SOOOOOOO sick of doing hair. I swear I am If you think people are hard to get along with try cutting their hair day after day after day. You get the picture.

But I am gonna close my shop as soon as you show me my authority.

I already got the name picked out for my Church.

How’s this sound, Now get ready for it!

The Church of Rinnie! I already got big sign pictured in my mind. Me, Jesus and a picture of my Shepherd my dog. Get it Shepherd!

Because I Lovvvvvvvvvvvvvve to talk about Jesus. I could do it day after day after day and never be bored. So get back to me now Love!

 

[clmowry]

But, for me, scripture must be the primary shaper of my values. For if God says in his word that life is precious and to be preserved, then it doesn’t matter if experience, tradition, and reason all argue on the other side. God’s Word trumps them all, for it is the only thing I have that I know comes directly from God, and I cannot go against what I understand to be his clear will.

How does this differ from “sola scriptura”?

If what you interpret Scripture to mean is in conflict with what some other authority tells you to be the truth then your interpretation wins.

You are right back you individually interpreting scripture?

Are you not?

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

I am not a catholic so I will take a stab at your question.

It is my understanding that the Bible is the word of God and should be followed. So one could assume that God thought this was enough to follow him to everlasting life. The only thing that was needed was to believe in him and put your faith in him.

(Edited as off topic)

God stated that any words added to his words by man should be punished. So if it is not in the Bible how can it be God,s words?? What I find interesting that it was man that was the one that decided what should be placed in the Bible. Sounds like man was trying to decide which words were important and which were not. This was not decided until the 4th century.

(Edited as off topic).

I must have missed the proof from the bible for any of these beliefs part of the post.

Chuck

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I am not a catholic so I will take a stab at your question.

It is my understanding that the Bible is the word of God and should be followed. So one could assume that God thought this was enough to follow him to everlasting life. The only thing that was needed was to believe in him and put your faith in him.

He most important thing in the Bible, being mentioned the most, was the care of the needy, the poor, the sick, anyone less fortunate than you. To be tolerate, to good works not as a way to get to heaven but as a way to show your faith.

God stated that any words added to his words by man should be punished. So if it is not in the Bible how can it be God,s words?? What I find interesting that it was man that was the one that decided what should be placed in the Bible. Sounds like man was trying to decide which words were important and which were not. This was not decided until the 4th century.

I will ask this question. Why does the Catholic Church not follow the Ten Commandments as they are written in the Bible?? They change them around it seems.

Ten Commandments found in Genesis and Deut. God said that man should have no idols. [SIGN]The Catholic Church sure has a ton of idols. [/SIGN] Pray to no one except me, but the church has her people pray to all kinds of things: Saints, icons, the Pope. It seems to me that the church prehaps has lost her way a little.

Not nice to change God’s words to fit your needs.

Okat lets see. Could you show me one idol that is false. IF its statues let me not waste your time.

When we have a statue of Jesus do we believe that is made in the image that Jesus revealed himself as? Yes we do. Man. So yes when we see a Statue of Jesus we love him call him the Son of Man and recognize him as Jesus our Lord. How about you who do you say Jesus is?

Blessed Mother. Yes when we have a statue of her that statue is in her image. Do we think she was the Mother of Christ. Yep. Who do you say the Blessed Mother was?

St Paul, St John, Need I go on?

 

[PJM]

=JustaServant;5829614]Hmmm,things NCs believe that are not in the Bible. Lets see.

1. Evangelistic appeals.
2. VBS.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors.
4. Church picnics,
5. Praise bands.
6. Bible Colleges.
7. Short hair on men, long hair on women. ( I once knew a preacher who insisted Jesus had a crewcut)
   I’m sure there’s more, but I can’t think of any right now.
   Too much Chinese food for lunch.
   

Very interesting list… BUT…

Everything on your list seems to be “church practice”? And darn good ones!

OSAS is Theological, and doctrinal or dogmatic? Not merely a personal option:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

Pat