Its not just the catholic Church that is moderating

[rien]

Interesting article on Falwell’s death and how young evangelicals like young Catholics are more open to homosexual issues and environmental issues. I think this is why the Pope/Vatican backed off what would hav been at one time a traditional orthodox stance on the reception of communion. They know history is not on their said as apparently new leadership among the Baptitis recognizs too. IMO I think 100 years from now both catholic and fundamenatlist/evangelical positions will be greatly changed. We see that process underway now:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052101581_pf.html

 

[goofyjim]

Interesting article on Falwell’s death and how young evangelicals like young Catholics are more open to homosexual issues and environmental issues. I think this is why the Pope/Vatican backed off what would hav been at one time a traditional orthodox stance on the reception of communion. They know history is not on their said as apparently new leadership among the Baptitis recognizs too. IMO I think 100 years from now both catholic and fundamenatlist/evangelical positions will be greatly changed. We see that process underway now:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052101581_pf.html

I’m not moderating on homosexual issues. Homosexual acts are wrong. Homosexual orientation is not.

 

[Ender]

IMO I think 100 years from now both catholic and fundamenatlist/evangelical positions will be greatly changed. We see that process underway now:

I don’t think you understand what the Catholic church represents. Unlike Protestant denominations who vote on what they believe, there is no way for Catholics to make the changes you speak of. Catholics don’t vote on moral issues and the Pope doesn’t have that authority. The changes you forsee in the Catholic church will never happen.

Ender

 

[Andy_K]

I don’t think you understand what the Catholic church represents. Unlike Protestant denominations who vote on what they believe, there is no way for Catholics to make the changes you speak of. Catholics don’t vote on moral issues and the Pope doesn’t have that authority. The changes you forsee in the Catholic church will never happen.

Ender

rien, what Ender typed embodies one of the safest bets you could ever make. This Church just don’t go changin’!

 

[goofyjim]

Oh but it has changed. There is a Courage an outreach ministry to those with same sex attraction. 100 years ago folks would have said if they’re that sick to be homosexual then out of the Church regardless of whether they’re celibate.

 

[LilyM]

Oh but it has changed. There is a Courage an outreach ministry to those with same sex attraction. 100 years ago folks would have said if they’re that sick to be homosexual then out of the Church regardless of whether they’re celibate.

Not at all. Notorious British playwright Oscar Wilde, tried and found guilty of sodomy about 100 years ago, converted after his release from prison to Catholicism. Not aware that he changed his sexual orientation.

 

[Black_Jaque]

DeMoss said he thinks “there will never be such a single, dominant leader of the movement again.”

Page agrees. “We’re in an anti-hero age. People shoot at anybody who comes to a certain level of prominence,” he said. “We’re in a time of real doubt and disturbing lack of loyalty to causes. We see people having a hard time pulling together.”

I think we are in a time of “winnowing” where the wheat will be separated from the chaf. God is going to make the Catholic Church stand out like a sore thumb (or more appropriately like a beacon in the darkness). As the Protestant denominations get more and more wishy-washy there will be tons who flock to the Catholic Church. And at the same time the Catholic Church will become clearer in it’s stance on faith and morals, and a lot of people will leave the church.

Catholics will see more excommunications for abortion supporters, gay activists and such. That will be a beacon to some. And it will be a scorching, blinding light to others.

 

[manualman]

I don’t know why anyone would dispute that the official positions of the catholic church have been repackaged so as to be more clear that certain BEHAVIOR is morally incompatible with the faith, rather than certain PEOPLE being so. But the church has also been clear that the SSA itself is a disordered condition at odds with God’s design for human sexuality in its wholeness.

History is littered with failed predictions of the Church’s acceptance of the desires of the people rather than the will of God.

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t know why anyone would dispute that the official positions of the catholic church have been repackaged so as to be more clear that certain BEHAVIOR is morally incompatible with the faith, rather than certain PEOPLE being so. But the church has also been clear that the SSA itself is a disordered condition at odds with God’s design for human sexuality in its wholeness.

History is littered with failed predictions of the Church’s acceptance of the desires of the people rather than the will of God.

Homosexual acts are an abomination. SSA is not at odds with God at all, otherwise one would be under moral requirement to change it.

 

[manualman]

An SSA is a disordered sexuality. Don’t get me wrong on that, most of our culture today has SOME sort of disordered sexuality. Is SSA worse than a strong urges to fornicate with random strangers of the opposite sex? I dunno, it calls for a theologian smarter than me. But BOTH are disordered and the sufferer of each should seek to be healed of his disorder and to have a healthy human sexuality as God designed us to have.

To say “Hey, I have an SSA and God made me that way” is as silly as saying “God made me a ‘leg-man’ and that won’t ever change.” Both the SSA sufferer and the hetero lust sufferer ought to desire healing!

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t mean to stray off topic but science is finding that there are prenatal, hormonal facotrs in determining ssa so while it may not be ideal, God in His infinite humorous wisdom may let some of us be born that way. It need not be treated. One is under no obligation to do such.

 

[OriginalJS]

I have seen constant changes in the Church in the past fifty years. When I was a boy in the 1950’s, Mass could not be started after noon and Catholic weddings started in the morning or at noon. We were taught that limbo was real; now teaching on limbo has been rejected. Cremation was never allowed, now it is being accepted. We received communion on the tongue, never in the hand. Suicides were never interred in the Catholic cemetery. Annulments were hard, and I mean h a r d to get; now they have become almost routine. Divorced and remarried persons who had not obtained annulments were refused communion. Now many divorced people routinely receive communion. Not everybody received communion because Catholics who had not confessed sins believed it was sacrilege to receive; now everybody goes up. Catholics who got divorced went somewhere else to church. We did not eat meat on any Fridays, not just Fridays during Lent. We fasted before going to Sunday Mass. There was no Saturday evening Mass - that was unheard of. Saturday evening was for confession and the lines were long. There was no group reconciliation. There was no concelebration of marriages with protestant clergy. I never saw a married priest; now there are quite a number. I never saw an altar girl until much later. This list seems endless.

 

[blessedtoo]

Oh but it has changed. There is a Courage an outreach ministry to those with same sex attraction. 100 years ago folks would have said if they’re that sick to be homosexual then out of the Church regardless of whether they’re celibate.

Ridiculous. There have always been individuals with SSA. No one has ever been excommunicated for simply having SSA.

 

[blessedtoo]

Homosexual acts are an abomination. SSA is not at odds with God at all, otherwise one would be under moral requirement to change it.

Jim, for the 900th time, we ALL suffer from disorder. I am a recovering addict. I couldn’t change my disposition (disorder) to drink and drug even if I wanted to. SSA is at odds with God’s plan for human procreation, obviously. This does not mean there is any requirement for change. It simply means that those with this particular disorder (and every human who breathes) must refrain from acting on their disordered desires.

 

[blessedtoo]

I don’t mean to stray off topic but science is finding that there are prenatal, hormonal facotrs in determining ssa so while it may not be ideal, God in His infinite humorous wisdom may let some of us be born that way. It need not be treated. One is under no obligation to do such.

Jim, it doesn’t matter. Even if they find the “gay” gene, or the “rage” gene, or the “alcoholic”, “adultery”, “bad language” gene - it doesn’t matter. We are all pre-disposed to disordered behavior. We walk with Christ when we refrain from acting upon the disordered desires.

 

[Genesis315]

I have seen constant changes in the Church in the past fifty years. When I was a boy in the 1950’s, Mass could not be started after noon and Catholic weddings started in the morning or at noon. We were taught that limbo was real; now teaching on limbo has been rejected. Cremation was never allowed, now it is being accepted. We received communion on the tongue, never in the hand. Suicides were never interred in the Catholic cemetery. Annulments were hard, and I mean h a r d to get; now they have become almost routine. Divorced and remarried persons who had not obtained annulments were refused communion. Now many divorced people routinely receive communion. Not everybody received communion because Catholics who had not confessed sins believed it was sacrilege to receive; now everybody goes up. Catholics who got divorced went somewhere else to church. We did not eat meat on any Fridays, not just Fridays during Lent. We fasted before going to Sunday Mass. There was no Saturday evening Mass - that was unheard of. Saturday evening was for confession and the lines were long. There was no group reconciliation. There was no concelebration of marriages with protestant clergy. I never saw a married priest; now there are quite a number. I never saw an altar girl until much later. This list seems endless.

Those all have to do with disciplines, not doctrines. The only exception is Limbo, which has not been rejected (read the recent document that came out, it specifically says so).

 

[OriginalJS]

Those all have to do with disciplines, not doctrines. The only exception is Limbo, which has not been rejected (read the recent document that came out, it specifically says so).

This may be, but it is hard for me as a layman always to be able to distinguish the difference. In my view, Catholics are what they are because of what they do. What observant Catholics do now is different from what observant Catholics were doing in the 1950’s.

The thread suggests that the Catholic Church is moderating, which some here deny. From my observation, the Church as moderated on those points I mentioned above whether they are technically disciplines or doctrines.

 

[Ender]

This may be, but it is hard for me as a layman always to be able to distinguish the difference. In my view, Catholics are what they are because of what they do. What observant Catholics do now is different from what observant Catholics were doing in the 1950’s.

The thread suggests that the Catholic Church is moderating, which some here deny. From my observation, the Church as moderated on those points I mentioned above whether they are technically disciplines or doctrines.

It is certainly true that in the last half century the Church has changed in some ways - the liturgy being an obvious example but the OP implied that the Church was “moderating” her position with regard to homosexuality. This is not true. The distinction between disciplines and doctrines is neither semantic nor trivial: the former are the Church’s rules, the latter are God’s.

Ender

 

[Ahimsa]

It is certainly true that in the last half century the Church has changed in some ways - the liturgy being an obvious example but the OP implied that the Church was “moderating” her position with regard to homosexuality. This is not true. The distinction between disciplines and doctrines is neither semantic nor trivial: the former are the Church’s rules, the latter are God’s.

Ender

I don’t think anyone said the distinction was semantic or trivial, only that a lay-person’s perspective is that of a Church that has become less ‘strict’ or ‘rigid’ in its disciplines and teachings.

 

[Ender]

I don’t think anyone said the distinction was semantic or trivial, only that a lay-person’s perspective is that of a Church that has become less ‘strict’ or ‘rigid’ in its disciplines and teachings.

It is not a question of specifically claiming that there is no difference between disciplines and teachings (doctrines) but one of blurring the distinction. You are misled if you believe that because her disciplines change that her doctrines will change also. Change withing the Church is either happening or not happening depending on the object to which the term is applied. I agree that she has become less strict in her disciplines, but her doctrines are eternally unchanged.

Ender