Its not just the catholic Church that is moderating

[OriginalJS]

I am probably in over my head here, but if in fact doctrines have not changed, only disciplines, then why do I continually see laments by conservative Catholics over what they claim are the deleterious effects of Vatican II? Are those folks making mountains out of molehills? Or is there cause for real concern?

 

[BillP]

I don’t think you understand what the Catholic church represents. Unlike Protestant denominations who vote on what they believe, there is no way for Catholics to make the changes you speak of. Catholics don’t vote on moral issues and the Pope doesn’t have that authority. The changes you forsee in the Catholic church will never happen.

Ender

Wanna bet?

 

[Ender]

"Ender:

The changes you forsee in the Catholic church will never happen.

Wanna bet?

Wanna be more specific? Which doctrines do you expect to see changed? None of these will change: women priests, homosexual behavior, abortion, contraception, divorce, euthanasia. Actually there is one I could see changing: the death penalty … probably not the one you had in mind.

Ender

 

[Seatuck]

Not at all. Notorious British playwright Oscar Wilde, tried and found guilty of sodomy about 100 years ago, converted after his release from prison to Catholicism. Not aware that he changed his sexual orientation.

He had a death bed conversion. I can’t judge him but I can speculate it was to cover his bases so to speak. Or to satisfy those who loved and urged him to do it. I hope he did mean it.

 

[BillP]

Wanna be more specific? Which doctrines do you expect to see changed? None of these will change: women priests, homosexual behavior, abortion, contraception, divorce, euthanasia. Actually there is one I could see changing: the death penalty … probably not the one you had in mind.

Ender

Sure, I predict that the Church teaching on

• women priests
• homosexual behavior
• contraception

will change within our lifetime, say the next 25 years.

I submit that when more than 80% of Catholics seeking Annulments receive them then the teaching on divorce HAS changed despite all the rationalistic, hair-splitting mental gymnastics the heirarchy has indulged in to obfuscate that fact.

 

[water]

Sure, I predict that the Church teaching on

• women priests
• homosexual behavior
• contraception
  

will change within our lifetime, say the next 25 years.

sure, why not? the Church has been teaching

• women priests - The Church says “No way”
• homosexual behavior - The Church says “No way”
• contraception - the Church says “No way”.

 

[BillP]

sure, why not? the Church has been teaching

• women priests - The Church says “No way”
• homosexual behavior - The Church says “No way”
• contraception - the Church says “No way”.

I’m not sure I understand your point. We both agree the Church currently teaches against women priests, homosexual behavior and contraception. I simply assert that those teachings will change within the next 25 years. Just as the Church teachings on Divorce, Slavery, Usary and priestly celibacy has chnaged in the past.

 

[water]

I’m not sure I understand your point. We both agree the Church currently teaches against women priests, homosexual behavior and contraception. I simply assert that those teachings will change within the next 25 years. Just as the Church teachings on Divorce, Slavery, Usary and priestly celibacy has chnaged in the past.

My point is it won’t change. You can find out in the next 25 years.

 

[butterflychaser]

This Church just don’t go changin’!

The Truth never changes.

 

[BillP]

Doctrine = Things which the will NEVER change
Discipline = Doctrines the Church has decided to change

 

[Ender]

Doctrine = Things which the will NEVER change
Discipline = Doctrines the Church has decided to change

Well, not exactly. Disciplines are things over which the Church has instituted and over which she has control: the liturgy of the mass, Friday fasting, even the celibate priesthood, all these have been created by the Church and can, and have been, changed by the Church.

Doctrines however are the Church’s understanding of God’s moral law and are things about which the Church has no authority to alter. As JPII wrote about the ordination of women: “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” These doctrines cannot change because the Church has no authority to change them.

It is ironic that people think the Church generally and the Pope specifically make up these rules - as Protestant denominations do when they vote on such issues - but in fact such changes cannot occur in the Catholic Church as there is no one authorized to make them.

Ender

 

[LilyM]

I’m not sure I understand your point. We both agree the Church currently teaches against women priests, homosexual behavior and contraception. I simply assert that those teachings will change within the next 25 years. Just as the Church teachings on Divorce, Slavery, Usary and priestly celibacy has chnaged in the past.

The church doesn’t ***just ***currently teach against these things - it teaches, for example, that it has NO authority nor power to permit women to be priests, and never will have.

It never made, to the best of my knowledge, a definitive statement of this sort on slavery, nor on usury.

And it would look pretty darn stupid if it were to turn around at any point in the future and say otherwise about women priests.

In fact if you think it’s already made changes of this magnitude then I’d question why you’ve even remained a Catholic, and moreover say you look like an fool to be staying a Catholic.

Clearly you believe the promises of Christ to guide the Church mean absolutely nothing.

 

[goofyjim]

The Church cannot change its teaching on homosexual behavior. It can moderate its language and call homosexuality an orientation instead of a disorder, since there is mounting evidence of prenatal, hormonal factors such as in the tendency towards alcoholism.

 

[LilyM]

BillP, I just wanted to say forgive me for my uncharitable outburst. I was not having a good day yesterday, not that that is any excuse.

Forgive this poor sinful wretch

 

[rien]

The church doesn’t ***just ***currently teach against these things - it teaches, for example, that it has NO authority nor power to permit women to be priests, and never will have.

It never made, to the best of my knowledge, a definitive statement of this sort on slavery, nor on usury.

And it would look pretty darn stupid if it were to turn around at any point in the future and say otherwise about women priests.

In fact if you think it’s already made changes of this magnitude then I’d question why you’ve even remained a Catholic, and moreover say you look like an fool to be staying a Catholic.

Clearly you believe the promises of Christ to guide the Church mean absolutely nothing.

I suspect the prohibition on women priests will fall with the next Pope. Interestingly the Hindu faith recently allowed priestesses and according to Hindu Yoday they are becoming incresingly accepted.

IMO it is only a matter of time and this will hapopeen in the Catholic church.

 

[LilyM]

I suspect the prohibition on women priests will fall with the next Pope. Interestingly the Hindu faith recently allowed priestesses and according to Hindu Yoday they are becoming incresingly accepted.

IMO it is only a matter of time and this will hapopeen in the Catholic church.

What rot! Hinduism isn’t a homogenous (all-Hindus-are-the-same) religion. I believe it has ALWAYS had female priestesses, as the ancient Greeks and Romans did, just not in the worship of all deities. There’s even a girl worshipped as a ‘living Goddess’ (Kumari Devi) in Nepal.

Remember too that a lot of people were saying the same about birth control (that the Church was bound to cave in and allow it) in the 1960s prior to the release of Humanae Vitae. Even the majority of the Vatican’s consultants on the issue (Catholic and non-Catholic alike) urged that birth control be allowed and expected the Pope would take their advice. He didn’t.

40 years later the confident predictions of those saying the Church position would change are not an iota closer to being fulfilled. I’d be willing to take at least a small bet that women priests won’t happen in the next 50 years. There’s at least the other permissible option of married priests to be tried first, and we’re nowhere near desperate enough even to allow for them (apart from converted Anglican priests) yet.

 

[LJN21]

Sure, I predict that the Church teaching on

• women priests
• homosexual behavior
• contraception

will change within our lifetime, say the next 25 years.

I submit that when more than 80% of Catholics seeking Annulments receive them then the teaching on divorce HAS changed despite all the rationalistic, hair-splitting mental gymnastics the heirarchy has indulged in to obfuscate that fact.

Those things are never going to change, it is not possible.

Some rogue person might try and ordain a woman priest but even if they try it can’t happen. Invalid matter. Its the same as trying to consecrate a Oreo or Goldfish Cracker for Communion.

Homosexual behavior (I’m assuming you mean Homosexual relations not simply SSA) is intrinsically evil, and disordered. Not going to change.

Contraception is intrinsically evil and not going to change.

I’m not sure I understand your point. We both agree the Church currently teaches against women priests, homosexual behavior and contraception. I simply assert that those teachings will change within the next 25 years. Just as the Church teachings on Divorce, Slavery, Usary and priestly celibacy has chnaged in the past.

The teaching on Divorce have not ever changed. Annulment is not the same thing as divorce. Its a statement that one was never married to start with.

Slavery - catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0006.html

Priestly Celibacy catholic.com/library/Celibacy_and_the_Priesthood.asp
One by a gasp Married Priest!
crisismagazine.com/october2006/ryland.htm

Usary - catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=646

 

[Mannyfit75]

Interesting article on Falwell’s death and how young evangelicals like young Catholics are more open to homosexual issues and environmental issues. I think this is why the Pope/Vatican backed off what would hav been at one time a traditional orthodox stance on the reception of communion. They know history is not on their said as apparently new leadership among the Baptitis recognizs too. IMO I think 100 years from now both catholic and fundamenatlist/evangelical positions will be greatly changed. We see that process underway now:

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052101581_pf.html

I’m not moderating either. Homosexuality can never be acceptible. Not in my eyes or God’s.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m not sure I understand your point. We both agree the Church currently teaches against women priests, homosexual behavior and contraception. I simply assert that those teachings will change within the next 25 years. Just as the Church teachings on Divorce, Slavery, Usary and priestly celibacy has chnaged in the past.

Homosexuality is a moral issue. The Church in the beginning condemned it. St. Paul condemned, the Didache condemned it. It will not change.

Women priesthood in the Catholic Church cannot change. Because the Catholic Priesthood is modelled after Jesus Christ, who is Male, Celibate, and High Priest.

Second in the OT, the Levite priest are all Male. To have women priesthood would invalid the sacraments.

I would also like to note, that priests are consider the Bridegroom of the Catholic Church. To have a woman priest would be like have woman marrying another woman.

You call yourself a Catholic and how dare you think that the Church would do such a thing. The CC cannot change these. She has no authority under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[goofyjim]

Homosexuality is a moral issue. The Church in the beginning condemned it. St. Paul condemned, the Didache condemned it. It will not change.

Women priesthood in the Catholic Church cannot change. Because the Catholic Priesthood is modelled after Jesus Christ, who is Male, Celibate, and High Priest.

Second in the OT, the Levite priest are all Male. To have women priesthood would invalid the sacraments.

I would also like to note, that priests are consider the Bridegroom of the Catholic Church. To have a woman priest would be like have woman marrying another woman.

You call yourself a Catholic and how dare you think that the Church would do such a thing. The CC cannot change these. She has no authority under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Then think outside the box a little. What is the male priest’s relation to the male members of the Church supposed to be like. Sort of like a man marrying a man wouldn’t you say?