Its not just the catholic Church that is moderating

[BillP]

BillP,

You don’t belong in the Catholic Church if you keep these views. You need to re-examine yourself before you lead others to such liberal ideas.

Canon Law disagrees with you. But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of your llittle foot-stamping tantrum here pal. Argument by repeated assertion never works.

You know you are Very WRONG in your way of thinking.

I know no such thing. You might believe I am wrong, but I don’t believe I am. For you to assert otherwise is both patronizing and intellectually dishonest. Nor does ALL CAPS make your assertions either true or more believeable.

I see from your profile that you are discerning Priesthood. I can only hope you get a better handle on how to interact with foks you don’t agree with before you proceed. Not to mention a better handle on what Canon Law says about who is and isn’t Catholic.

I don’t believe I have anything further to learn from you and will not be responding to any more of your abusive screeds.

Good luck in Iraq, I will pray for your safe return.

 

[Nohome]

I tell ya’ll what. Ya’ll look at the Catholic Church at say 100 AD, 500AD, 1500AD, 1950AD and 2007AD and tell me it never changes.

It not only has changed (massively!) it will continue to change. This thread started when I offered to bet that the Church’s teaching on ABC, Female Priests and Homosexual behavior would change within 25 years. I stand by that.

I honestly don’t care what any of the bunch of you think. The Canon law says I’m Catholic until and unless I formally renounce Catholicism and join another religion (which I have no intention of doing), so ya’ll are just going to have to put up with me unless you all go join SSPX and spend your lives grousing and complaining about how the Cafeteria Catholics have taken over the Church…

You sound a lot like me 10 years ago. The Church wasn’t what I wanted it to be so I believed it needed to change. Over time this admittedly arrogant position made we weary and I came to realise you either “love it or leave it” and I chose the latter.

I think you are confusing symantics. The Church has indeed changed over time, but what she believes remains constant. For example, her political power (corination of kings, Papal states) is gone and secular governments dominate, but the basic tenets of the faith, that which is professed weekly in the creed, remains unchanged.

Her understanding of issues change too, like the notion of limbo and that Gallelao was correct. Still the basic truths (capital T for Catholics) remain unchanged. To think that the issues you raise will change is a sucker bet. A more likely scenario is that more and more people will abandon the faith. The Church will not change, for you, me or anyone else.

I eventually realised that I am simply not Catholic. I received her sacraments and cuturally I remain “catholic”, but I’m not about to demand an ancient institution to conform to my needs. By default I am protestant and it sounds like you are too.

Nohome

 

[Mannyfit75]

Canon Law disagrees with you. But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of your llittle foot-stamping tantrum here pal. Argument by repeated assertion never works.

I am entitle to my opinion. It is my opinion that you need to re-examine yourself on your views. If you don’t, it is my opinion that you leave the CC, or reconcil yourself by your secular views.

I know no such thing. You might believe I am wrong, but I don’t believe I am. For you to assert otherwise is both patronizing and intellectually dishonest. Nor does ALL CAPS make your assertions either true or more believeable.

I see from your profile that you are discerning Priesthood. I can only hope you get a better handle on how to interact with foks you don’t agree with before you proceed. Not to mention a better handle on what Canon Law says about who is and isn’t Catholic.

I don’t believe I have anything further to learn from you and will not be responding to any more of your abusive screeds.

Call it what you want. What is more harmful, changing Church doctrine concerning faith and morals, and you know well as a Catholic these cannot change. You ought to Read the Catechism to find out why women priesthood cannot change nor that homosexual activity is will never be accepted by the CC.

I am discerning priesthood and yes my post may offend you. It is a lesson you must learn that you are stepping on dangerous waters by insisting of placing a bet that the CC will change its core doctrines.

I can handle people very well, unless they get on my nerves. I have dislike with disobedient and caferia Catholics like yourself. I don’t like them because they are disobedient. What can I do. I can pray and hope you will change your ways.

Good luck in Iraq, I will pray for your safe return.

You want to make a bet if the CC changes, you better bet in your soul because these doctrines will not and cannot change for your sake.

For one the Church has two nature. Human and Divine. Human because its members are human and divine because her Soul is the Holy Spirit.

If you say the Mother Church will change its doctrine, the Holy Spirit will contradict itself.

You are wrong is placing a bet on the Church’s doctrine. This bet is what I believe is wrong.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You sound a lot like me 10 years ago. The Church wasn’t what I wanted it to be so I believed it needed to change. Over time this admittedly arrogant position made we weary and I came to realise you either “love it or leave it” and I chose the latter.

I think you are confusing symantics. The Church has indeed changed over time, but what she believes remains constant. For example, her political power (corination of kings, Papal states) is gone and secular governments dominate, but the basic tenets of the faith, that which is professed weekly in the creed, remains unchanged.

Her understanding of issues change too, like the notion of limbo and that Gallelao was correct. Still the basic truths (capital T for Catholics) remain unchanged. To think that the issues you raise will change is a sucker bet. A more likely scenario is that more and more people will abandon the faith. The Church will not change, for you, me or anyone else.

I eventually realised that I am simply not Catholic. I received her sacraments and cuturally I remain “catholic”, but I’m not about to demand an ancient institution to conform to my needs. By default I am protestant and it sounds like you are too.

Nohome

Well said.

 

[BillP]

but the basic tenets of the faith, that which is professed weekly in the creed, remains unchanged.

Thats is my point exactly. I posted the Nicene Creed a few pages back and agree wholeheartedly with each and every position espoused within it. That agreement is what makes me Catholic. All the rest is quibbling. The creed says NOTHING about infallibility, contraception, homosexuality or female priests.

If the Church ever changes the creed, then I will reconsider. Until then you’re stuck with me.

the basic truths (capital T for Catholics) remain unchanged.

Right. The basic truths. What are these basic truths? Hint, see the Creed and John 15:12

This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.

The Church will not change, for you, me or anyone else.

Yet she has changed, on important issues, as man, and human society have evolved. I expect her to continue doing so.

I eventually realised that I am simply not Catholic. I received her sacraments and cuturally I remain “catholic”, but I’m not about to demand an ancient institution to conform to my needs. By default I am protestant and it sounds like you are too.

To me you’ve thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Don’t let the hierarchy run you off. You were taking those Sacraments for a reason, and frankly, God has never been too careful about who he hired to run his Church.

Its like the Church is the worldest greatest BBQ restaurant. Once you get inside the Cook (God) makes the finest cusine in the world at incredibly reasonable prices, but the servers (the Pope and the Hierarchy) are full of opinons on EVERYTHING except BBQ. They want to tell me which side of the plate my glass goes on, in what order I should eat the items on my plate. How many swallows of water I should take between each bite of food, all kinds of extraneous nonsense. I’m not obligated to adhere to their opinions. I just want the BBQ their boss makes.

Don’t let the servers run you off!

 

[Nohome]

Its like the Church is the worldest greatest BBQ restaurant.

O.K., using your analogy, let’s just say I came to realise I’m a vegetarian!

Nohome

 

[BillP]

O.K., using your analogy, let’s just say I came to realise I’m a vegetarian!

Nohome

Fair enough, I hope you find the finest vegetarian restaurant in the universe then.

 

[edwest2]

Hi BillP,

The Catholic Church has lied in the past and is lying again now? Is that what you’re saying? Do you realize that the social “evolution” you refer to is being carried out by men?

I will be praying for you. May the Holy Spirit of God guide you.

God bless,
Ed

 

[BillP]

Hi BillP,

The Catholic Church has lied in the past and is lying again now? Is that what you’re saying? Do you realize that the social “evolution” you refer to is being carried out by men?

I will be praying for you. May the Holy Spirit of God guide you.

God bless,
Ed

I don’t believe I used the word “lie” nor did I intend to. The Church has changed her teachings. At one time she taught that is was a sin to collect interest, now it isn’t.

At one time she taught it was acceptable to hold human beings in slavery, now it isn’t.

The Church once taught that couple were not permitted to space their children. Now She teaches that NFP is acceptable

Etc, etc, etc.

These changes don’t mean she was “lying”, lying requires forethought and knowledge of the truth. I just don’t think the Hierarchy of the Church has a full understanding of the situation.

Someday she will realize that Women CAN be priests, that couples CAN licitly use ABC and that Homosexuals can enter inton loving relationships with one another.

Nothing about lies.

Thanks for your prayers!

 

[sosayi1960]

I have seen constant changes in the Church in the past fifty years. When I was a boy in the 1950’s, Mass could not be started after noon and Catholic weddings started in the morning or at noon. We were taught that limbo was real; now teaching on limbo has been rejected. Cremation was never allowed, now it is being accepted. We received communion on the tongue, never in the hand. Suicides were never interred in the Catholic cemetery. Annulments were hard, and I mean h a r d to get; now they have become almost routine. Divorced and remarried persons who had not obtained annulments were refused communion. Now many divorced people routinely receive communion. Not everybody received communion because Catholics who had not confessed sins believed it was sacrilege to receive; now everybody goes up. Catholics who got divorced went somewhere else to church. We did not eat meat on any Fridays, not just Fridays during Lent. We fasted before going to Sunday Mass. There was no Saturday evening Mass - that was unheard of. Saturday evening was for confession and the lines were long. There was no group reconciliation. There was no concelebration of marriages with protestant clergy. I never saw a married priest; now there are quite a number. I never saw an altar girl until much later. This list seems endless.

Your absolutely right when the Priests who were molesting children were protected and indeed sanctioned by Holy Mother Church

 

[sosayi1960]

You are betting against God. You find yourself completely at odds with the desposit of faith. Since female priesthood and homosexual behavior have never been accepted since it’s birth at Pentecost.

Jesus Christ instituted a male priesthood, women will NEVER BE ALLOWED to become Priest and nor will Homosexual activity be allowed.

I find Caferia Catholics totally against the Church. They ought to re-examine themselves if they want the Church to become a popular church and allow that homosexuality is ok. homosexual is an immoral evil, women priesthood was never allowed in the Levite priesthood since that priesthood is ENTIRELY male.

Jesus is a JEW. He came had a Jewish education and mindset. He came to fullfill the Law not to abolish it. He instituted a MALE priesthood and He is the high priest. Unless Jesus himself reincarnated as women, there would be a justification for female priesthood.

He did not institute a female priesthood. We see this in Church history. Pope John Paul II himself said that the Church had NO authority to allow women priesthood, and many Popes have condemned homosexuality even the earliest Christian catechesis condemned homosexuality as well as abortion.

homosexuality is EVIL. MORALLY EVIL. It is the selfish love and against God’s design. It also falls under the desposit of faith. Therefore this teaching cannot change.

The issue of slavery change because it brought forth abuses towards the slaves. The Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to change its doctrine.

If you so desire to change the Church teachings on these grounds, you better join a Protestant Church because you apparently have issues with these unchanging doctrines on morals and faith.

I shall pray for you and change your ridiculeous liberal ideas.

You are wrong, Abortion can be morally justified. Anacephalics, Rape Victims by Fathers and Brothers gives moral justification. When is the last time you were with 11 year old girl who was raped by her 16yo brother? I work with these kids. Oh yes, her parents are Catholic, she had to go to court to fight to terminate her condition. She is in a mental institution. The fetus was deformed by the drugs. She was in the begining of the 2nd trimester. I’m a male, I’m a Dad, I’m a nurse. Have a little compassion Mr. Conservative. Pray for the guys who are molesting children to stop. I hate Abortion. You are so blinded by your own little world. There is a bigger world out there buddy.

 

[Bennie_P]

Your absolutely right when the Priests who were molesting children were protected and indeed sanctioned by Holy Mother Church

You haven’t a clue about what you are talking about
The clergy abuse scandal: homosexuality or pedophilia?

Do You Know? The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control. Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest; 1% because of fetal abnormalities; 3% due to the mother’s health problems.

 

[Vigis]

Finally I am done reading. Do you know how long it has taken me to read all of this thread along with many of the links? Two hours and fifteen minutes!!! Now I have the pleasure of responding. Praise God for that!

I would like to address Bill forst. Bill though you may be a member of the Catholic Church on the role you are technically not Catholic. I was a Protestant for 4 years, yet I was listed on the role of a Catholic Church as a member. However I was not Catholic. You have made it clear that you regect the Magesterium (however it is spelled). Hence you are not Catholic. You are Protestant. Whether you like it or not. Simple, yet cruel; at least to you. Also, you have said that the Catholic Church will change in dogma and disipline. LOL. What a load of bunk. You may ask, “why do you say such?and please back that up.” Why should any of us back up our claims to you? We have already done so. All you have done is ignore it out sheer incompetence or foolishness, maybe even both, and build up strawmen. Now we may (those who will not explain ourselves) reconsider our position if you actually take the time to back up your arguements. List proof! That is if their is any.

As for sosayi1960, if you want to say that murder can be justified be my guest; though you are wrong. Just because someone is raped, shot, or life is in danger due to pregnancey gives no rightous cause for an abortion. That is life. Stuff happens. You can say that I have never been raped or whatever and I can’t get pregnant anyways, so I have no room to talk, yet such would be nonsense. Some people have never shot a gun, but that does not mean they can not shoot good. This world is full of evil, and with evil comes inconvieniece. Life’s a (you guess the word), then you die. So to speak.

Go with God.

Vigis

 

[sosayi1960]

Finally I am done reading. Do you know how long it has taken me to read all of this thread along with many of the links? Two hours and fifteen minutes!!! Now I have the pleasure of responding. Praise God for that!

I would like to address Bill forst. Bill though you may be a member of the Catholic Church on the role you are technically not Catholic. I was a Protestant for 4 years, yet I was listed on the role of a Catholic Church as a member. However I was not Catholic. You have made it clear that you regect the Magesterium (however it is spelled). Hence you are not Catholic. You are Protestant. Whether you like it or not. Simple, yet cruel; at least to you. Also, you have said that the Catholic Church will change in dogma and disipline. LOL. What a load of bunk. You may ask, “why do you say such?and please back that up.” Why should any of us back up our claims to you? We have already done so. All you have done is ignore it out sheer incompetence or foolishness, maybe even both, and build up strawmen. Now we may (those who will not explain ourselves) reconsider our position if you actually take the time to back up your arguements. List proof! That is if their is any.

As for sosayi1960, if you want to say that murder can be justified be my guest; though you are wrong. Just because someone is raped, shot, or life is in danger due to pregnancey gives no rightous cause for an abortion. That is life. Stuff happens. You can say that I have never been raped or whatever and I can’t get pregnant anyways, so I have no room to talk, yet such would be nonsense. Some people have never shot a gun, but that does not mean they can not shoot good. This world is full of evil, and with evil comes inconvieniece. Life’s a (you guess the word), then you die. So to speak.

Go with God.

Vigis/QU

Inconvence? If you can’t get pregnant, how can you tell a little girl who has been raped by her brother she MUST complete her pregnancy? I hate abortion. I can understand it being justified. I believe that it needs to remain safe, legal, rare.
Go with God

 

[BillP]

I would like to address Bill forst. Bill though you may be a member of the Catholic Church on the role you are technically not Catholic.

I’m afraid Canon Law disagrees with you.

Can. 96 By baptism one is incorporated into the Church of Christ and constituted a person in it, with the duties and the rights which, in accordance with each one’s status, are proper to christians, in so far as they are in ecclesiastical communion and unless a lawfully issued sanction intervenes.

Now we may well disagree on the extent of my ecclesiastical communion, but as I say I agree with each and every proposition in the Nicene Creed. Sorry you don’t get rid of us that easily.

You might even believe that I have been excommunicated latae sententiae for my heresy and schism. But that excommunication requires “obstinate” denial or doubt. I don’t think I’ve been obstinate, but maybe God does. I don’t care if YOU do. Oh, and here’s another newsflash for you. Even excommunicated people are still Catholic.

I’m sorry you can’t have your little club just for you and your friends.

 

[Bennie_P]

Inconvence? If you can’t get pregnant, how can you tell a little girl who has been raped by her brother she MUST complete her pregnancy? I hate abortion. I can understand it being justified. I believe that it needs to remain safe, legal, rare.
Go with God

Simple you don’t kill a innocent child for the sins of the father,

Two evils does not make one Holy.

So you think it is going to make everything alright for the little girl to let her live her whole life not only with the memory of the rape, but also put the guilt of murder of a innocent child on her to live with too? She becomes a victim twice. That’s your idea of compassion?

 

[Vigis]

I’m afraid Canon Law disagrees with you.

Now we may well disagree on the extent of my ecclesiastical communion, but as I say I agree with each and every proposition in the Nicene Creed. Sorry you don’t get rid of us that easily.

You might even believe that I have been excommunicated latae sententiae for my heresy and schism. But that excommunication requires “obstinate” denial or doubt. I don’t think I’ve been obstinate, but maybe God does. I don’t care if YOU do. Oh, and here’s another newsflash for you. Even excommunicated people are still Catholic.

I’m sorry you can’t have your little club just for you and your friends.

No, Bill you are not Catholic. You may be a member of the Catholic Church, but because you do not believe in every doctrine of the Catholic Church you are not Catholic. I was Protestant. I was still a member of the Catholic Church, but I was a Protestant because I strongly disagreed with many of the Catholic Church’s doctrines. The same principle applies to you Bill. Sorry Bill. You may want to be Catholic, but because of your denial you are no more than a member of the Catholic Church.

I will pray for you.

God speed.

Vigis

 

[goofyjim]

I suppose I am also not a Catholic since I refuse to call the homosexual orientation a disorder.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are wrong, Abortion can be morally justified. Anacephalics, Rape Victims by Fathers and Brothers gives moral justification. When is the last time you were with 11 year old girl who was raped by her 16yo brother? I work with these kids. Oh yes, her parents are Catholic, she had to go to court to fight to terminate her condition. She is in a mental institution. The fetus was deformed by the drugs. She was in the begining of the 2nd trimester. I’m a male, I’m a Dad, I’m a nurse. Have a little compassion Mr. Conservative. Pray for the guys who are molesting children to stop. I hate Abortion. You are so blinded by your own little world. There is a bigger world out there buddy.

There is no justification for abortion. Life begins at conception and it ends in natural death. There is no human being here who can take life, only God himself can do that.

For 2,000 yrs the Church taught that abortion is immorally evil. You are wrong to disagree with the Church.

As early as 70 AD, abortion is condemned.

“The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

“The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Athenagoras

"What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers?

. . . [W]hen we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it"

There is no exception to the policy regarding abortion. Not rape not incest.

Of course there is bigger world out there. I have seen enough destruction in this part of the world, and I see that many of humanity who thinks abortion is justified think of themselves. Self-prideful men. Weak in the heart. The Church, the Pope the respresentative of Jesus Christ said that abortion is immoral. Why did he say that? Because the Jesus in the beginning establish a Church that has the power to bind and lose (Matthew 16:18). This is especially true when teaching morality.

You think it is justified to have an abortion. The Catholic Church disagrees with you. In fact, you don’t have a problem with the bishop of Rome. You have a problem with the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.

You think your way is better? No. I don’t think so. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Catholic Church is the Church 1 Tim 3:15 “The Pillar and Bulwark of Truth.” So you are completely at odds with Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus in Luke 10:16 said this to his disciples,

“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Be objective to the Catholic Church teaching regarding moral and faith, you better examine yourself about your views of abortion. I don’t care if you are nurse but you have no authority to claim that Church is wrong.

The Church authority has been consistent for 2,000 yrs when she teaches moral and faith.

As for the issue of priest molesting children. That is not a Catholic issue. It is a society issue. Adults do it in the schools, even Evangelical preachers have done it.

 

[Vigis]

I suppose I am also not a Catholic since I refuse to call the homosexual orientation a disorder.

You can disagree with Catholic disipline and still be Catholic.

God speed.

Vigis