Its not just the catholic Church that is moderating

[irenaeus1]

I know no such thing. You might believe I am wrong, but I don’t believe I am. For you to assert otherwise is both patronizing and intellectually dishonest.

What’s intellectually dishonest is the fact that you profess to be Catholic while protesting various Church teachings. Then wouldn’t the intellectually honest thing to do would be to call yourself a Protestant?

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[irenaeus1]

I don’t believe I used the word “lie” nor did I intend to. The Church has changed her teachings. At one time she taught that is was a sin to collect interest, now it isn’t.

It probably is a sin to collect interest in an economy where there is no inflation or in a barter system. What the Church condemns is exorbitant amount of interest. In fact, Jesus himself used in a parable the collection of interest by the master to be something reasonable to expect. It would hardly seem that Jesus would use an evil deed desired by the master (which represents Jesus himself) as a analogy to the way Jesus would treat and judge others.

At one time she taught it was acceptable to hold human beings in slavery, now it isn’t.

Slavery in the sense of owning them as property or where they are actually indentured servants?

The Church once taught that couple were not permitted to space their children. Now She teaches that NFP is acceptable

So how did people space children prior to NFP?

Someday she will realize that Women CAN be priests, that couples CAN licitly use ABC and that Homosexuals can enter inton loving relationships with one another.

On what basis do you know this? And why these? Are you waiting for the Church to change on abortion too? What about premarital sex? What about bestiality? What about pederasty? What about pornography?

 

[irenaeus1]

I’m afraid Canon Law disagrees with you.

Now we may well disagree on the extent of my ecclesiastical communion, but as I say I agree with each and every proposition in the Nicene Creed. Sorry you don’t get rid of us that easily.

Including one holy catholic and apostolic Church? Or the Church of Bill?

And it doesn’t have anything to do with anybody getting rid of you. It has to do with you being intellectually honest about your situation. You continually point to Canon Law to demonstrate that you are still Catholic (at least canonically speaking)… interesting considering that you reject certain of the Church’s moral teachings while claiming shelter under the Church’s disciplinary and governing role (e.g., Canon Law); in other words, how do you know that the Church is correct in stating that you are still Catholic? I would be careful in doing this, for you will then be judged more severely. Catholics (since you claim to be one) have a privileged position based on the knowledge and gifts we’ve been given. To him whom much is given, much is required.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[sosayi1960]

There is no justification for abortion. Life begins at conception and it ends in natural death. There is no human being here who can take life, only God himself can do that.

For 2,000 yrs the Church taught that abortion is immorally evil. You are wrong to disagree with the Church.

As early as 70 AD, abortion is condemned.

“The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

“The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Athenagoras

"What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers?

. . . [W]hen we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it"

There is no exception to the policy regarding abortion. Not rape not incest.

Of course there is bigger world out there. I have seen enough destruction in this part of the world, and I see that many of humanity who thinks abortion is justified think of themselves. Self-prideful men. Weak in the heart. The Church, the Pope the respresentative of Jesus Christ said that abortion is immoral. Why did he say that? Because the Jesus in the beginning establish a Church that has the power to bind and lose (Matthew 16:18). This is especially true when teaching morality.

You think it is justified to have an abortion. The Catholic Church disagrees with you. In fact, you don’t have a problem with the bishop of Rome. You have a problem with the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.

You think your way is better? No. I don’t think so. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Catholic Church is the Church 1 Tim 3:15 “The Pillar and Bulwark of Truth.” So you are completely at odds with Jesus Christ himself.

Jesus in Luke 10:16 said this to his disciples,

“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Be objective to the Catholic Church teaching regarding moral and faith, you better examine yourself about your views of abortion. I don’t care if you are nurse but you have no authority to claim that Church is wrong.

The Church authority has been consistent for 2,000 yrs when she teaches moral and faith.

As for the issue of priest molesting children. That is not a Catholic issue. It is a society issue. Adults do it in the schools, even Evangelical preachers have done it.

The church must allow for exceptions. I’m noy rejecting Jesus Christ. I still believe under rare circumstances Abortion can be justified. I just don’t understand why evrything is so black and white. When this poor abused child came in, your heart had to break. You and I cannot imagine the pain and the horror she went through. Jesus is the way, I agree. I cannot imagine putting this child through a forced delivery. Being a male we can never imagine her pain. At least pray for each other…
peace

 

[Ender]

I just don’t think the Hierarchy of the Church has a full understanding of the situation.

How would you know? Because you disagree with them? You’ve done some research but you don’t deal with information that conflicts with your opinions, you just ignore it.

You correctly pointed out in post #70 that: “the only things explicitly defined as infallible are The Immaculate Conception and The Assumption.” How then, when I quoted JPII about how the Church is constituted, can you dismiss his statement by saying: “The fact that JPII thought he was infallibile doesn’t concern me”? You know he wasn’t making an infallible claim, you just have no way of incorporating his statement about the Church with your belief that, somehow, things will change in response to (name removed by moderator)ut from the laity.

Assent to the teaching of the Church is required by the Catholic faith in the belief that her mission, assigned by Christ, is to “authentically interpret God’s law in the light of the Gospel” (Veritatis Splendor). Rejecting that she can authenticall interpret God’s law is a rejection of what the Church claims to be; it is a lack of faith.

“I**f there is no assent, there is no faith, for without assent one does not really believe.” (Augustine)

Ender

 

[Ender]

The church must allow for exceptions. I’m noy rejecting Jesus Christ. I still believe under rare circumstances Abortion can be justified. I just don’t understand why evrything is so black and white.

“When it is a matter of the moral norms prohibiting intrinsic evil, there are no privileges or exceptions for anyone. … Only a morality which acknowledges certain norms as valid always and for everyone, with no exception, can guarantee the ethical foundation of social coexistence, both on the national and international levels.” (Veritatis Splendor).

I agree that this will be a great hardship in the situation you describe but one of the central pillars of morality is that "*One may not do evil so that good may result from it. *(CCC 1761) The intentional killing of an unborn child is evil; the reason for doing so does not alter that fact.

Ender

 

[Bennie_P]

The church must allow for exceptions. I’m noy rejecting Jesus Christ. I still believe under rare circumstances Abortion can be justified. I just don’t understand why evrything is so black and white. When this poor abused child came in, your heart had to break. You and I cannot imagine the pain and the horror she went through. Jesus is the way, I agree. I cannot imagine putting this child through a forced delivery. Being a male we can never imagine her pain. At least pray for each other…
peace

And you think going inside her, ripping another innocent child apart is going to ease this poor girls pain? - let us try to get real.
Think about the pain she is going to feel later on when she sees a baby in another women’s arms and she has the knowledge that a innocent baby was ripped from her insides and thrown into the trash?

Killing the innocent baby is not going to make her forget about what was done to her, it is just going to add more pain on top of the pain she has to heal from already. and healing can’t happen overnight.

It is going to be hard for her either way, but if she had the baby and it was adopted, seeing a baby in the future will trigger the thoughts of what happen to her, but she also either have the knowledge that from her pain, out there, somewhere, there is child being loved, **or **she will have thoughts of a dead bloody baby in a bucket.

The only pain that was being eased by having the baby aborted, was everyone else involved, but not the abused girl. Try to image this, out of the suffering you saw, it was really your pain that you wanted ended, not hers.

My prayers are for you and yours and all the little girls that get treated as trash - May God have mercy on us all.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The church must allow for exceptions. I’m noy rejecting Jesus Christ. I still believe under rare circumstances Abortion can be justified. I just don’t understand why evrything is so black and white. When this poor abused child came in, your heart had to break. You and I cannot imagine the pain and the horror she went through. Jesus is the way, I agree. I cannot imagine putting this child through a forced delivery. Being a male we can never imagine her pain. At least pray for each other…
peace

Well you do reject Jesus because you disagree with His Church, and His Bride. You are putting yourself at odds with Church authority.

The Catholic Church for 2,000 yrs condemned abortion. It has been a part of the deposit of faith. Unchanging. Since it lines within the faith and moral issue.

The Church declare that abortion is immoral and she has made an infallible statement regarding it.

The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
November 18, 1974 completely condemned it. This document is infallible.

. “Death was not God’s doing, he takes no pleasure in the extinction of the living” (Wis. 1:13). Certainly God has created beings who have only one lifetime and physical death cannot be absent from the world of those with a bodily existence. But what is immediately willed is life, and in the visible universe everything has been made for man, who is the image of God and the world’s crowning glory (cf. Gen. 1:26-28). On the human level, “it was the devil’s envy that brought death into the world” (Wis. 2:24). Introduced by sin, death remains bound up with it: death is the sign and fruit of sin. But there is no final triumph for death. Confirming faith in the Resurrection, the Lord proclaims in the Gospel: “God is God, not of the dead, but of the living” (Mt. 22:32). And death like sin will be definitively defeated by resurrection in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 15:20-27). Thus we understand that human life, even on this earth, is precious. Infused by the Creator,[5] life is again taken back by Him (cf. Gen. 2:7; Wis. 15:11). It remains under His protection: man’s blood cries out to Him (cf. Gen. 4:10) and He will demand an account of it, “for in the image of God man was made” (Gen. 9:5-6). The commandment of God is formal: “You shall not kill” (Ex. 20:13). Life is at the same time a gift and a responsibility. It is received as a “talent” (cf. Mt. 25:14-30); it must be put to proper use. In order that life may bring forth fruit, many tasks are offered to man in this world and he must not shirk them. More important still, the Christian knows that eternal life depends on what, with the grace of God, he does with his life on earth.

1. The tradition of the Church has always held that human life must be protected and favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development. Opposing the morals of the Greco-Roman world, the Church of the first centuries insisted on the difference that exists on this point between those morals and Christian morals. In the Didache it is clearly said: “You shall not kill by abortion the fruit of the womb and you shall not murder the infant already born.”[6] Athenagoras emphasizes that Christians consider as murderers those women who take medicines to procure an abortion; he condemns the killers of children, including those still living in their mother’s womb, “where they are already the object of the care of divine Providence.” Tertullian did not always perhaps use the same language; he nevertheless clearly affirms the essential principle: “To prevent birth is anticipated murder; it makes little difference whether one destroys a life already born or does away with it in its nascent stage. The one who will be a man is already one.”[8]

Source: newadvent.org/library/docs_df75ab.htm

 

[Mannyfit75]

I use to be pro-choice when I was a teen but I changed my position. I shall tell you why.

I saw an abortion done on ultrasound. When the doctor conducted the abortion, I witness the fetus’ leg rip off with a metallic device, then, the doctor, the infant struggle trying to stay alive. Then his arms was rip off, and his torso, finally the head was left behind, the head of the infant was floating inside the womb, and the skull of the infant was crushed with clapping device. The doctor then use a device to suck the fetal material off the womb. Is this what you want to be allowed! Doesn’t this gross you out? It does to me!

I may serve the US but I am not too proud with its legalization of abortion. It is out right murder and evil.

The woman’s womb is sacred and Holy. It is the place where birth takes place. If you want to this genocide to continue you better think how many abortion like this is being carried out since Roe vs. Wade declare abortion to legal.

Let me quote Fr. Corapi. “Satan don judicial robes.” Indeed, he did. You have no idea how many babies have died since then. This unjust murder supported by the state is worst since the holocaust in WWII.

One more thing, women who had done abortion has testified that they suffer from PTSD due to abortion. You think is abortion is natural. It isn’t PTSD usually happen to individuals who have an experience mental hardship like soldiers in combat, people who witness murder.

My post maybe graphic but I am trying to tell you that abortion is immorally evil and one of the gravest sin that demands justice from God!