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Imdaman
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So what you think because PF is bestowing sainthood upon OR that he is endorsing Libtheo. This is an absurdity!
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CilladeRoma
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And yet John Paul II was made a Saint within what, 10 years. Not that I don’t think he deserved it, but Archbishop Romero was murdered while saying Mass. He is a martyr and even declaring that took far too long.
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KMG
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It’s not a literal canonization, obviously (give me a break, you know what I meant). It’s about casting an aura of sanctity around every word and alleged “spirit” of that Council.
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pnewton
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Okay, then how is this accusation acceptable in light of Catholic teaching?
If not, then you statement seems to me to be rash judgment against the Holy Father and my Church, that is slander, mud-slinging, and a promotion of some agenda. Is there another way to interpret your statement I am missing?
I will wait and see if you can reference your claim.
As the most favorable way of interpreting a canonization is the sanctity of the person canonized, not some sort of “message,” can you show where this particular agenda was ever presented by one of the popes who canonized his predecessor?
If not, then you statement seems to me to be rash judgment against the Holy Father and my Church, that is slander, mud-slinging, and a promotion of some agenda. Is there another way to interpret your statement I am missing?
I will wait and see if you can reference your claim.
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CilladeRoma
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No, I think you summed it up pretty nicely, @pnewton.
Sad, isn’t it?
Sad, isn’t it?
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KMG
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Funny how nobody cares about rash judgments about why Romero allegedly waited so very long…
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pnewton
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I haven’t seen any use of rash judgment about that.
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Imdaman
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Really!
Luke6_378d
I can recall when Liberation Theology was marginalized as leftist - glad to see times have changed!
I agree, but his cause was delayed because those on the political right associated him with LT
This Judgement seems pretty rash to me. Any thoughts on this?
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pnewton
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I didn’t catch it because I always see rash judgment as negative. I think in context of the Catechism, the word refers to judgment which is not favorable, though technically you are right. It is just as rash.
There is the logic error though that such a canonization is an endorsement of something the Church has condemned. I will be happy to point that out, for the sake of balance.
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Imdaman
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I’m not sure if your first paragraph is agreeing with me or not but I think you are agreeing that Luke made a Rash judgement. It certainly seems quite negative to me.
I do agree with your second paragraph. There is no reason to believe that the Pope or the Church in general is now endorsing LT.
I do agree with your second paragraph. There is no reason to believe that the Pope or the Church in general is now endorsing LT.
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Luke6_37
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The Church has never formally condemned liberation theology, but it has warned against excesses associated with it.Imdaman:
I didn’t catch it because I always see rash judgment as negative. I think in context of the Catechism, the word refers to judgment which is not favorable, though technically you are right. It is just as rash.
There is the logic error though that such a canonization is an endorsement of something the Church has condemned. I will be happy to point that out, for the sake of balance.
There has been a shift in acceptance under Pope Francis - unless you think this “Catholic” news source is also unreliable…
Under Pope Francis, liberation theology comes of age
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pnewton
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I think it was speculative journalism. The article linked is from 2013, when Cardinal Bergoglio became Pope Francis. Everyone was trying to read what his papacy would mean and every move was examine with extreme assumption.
That said, the historical setting in the article seems sound. Note that Pope Benedict praised the concern for the poor in liberation theology, while condemning the Marxist elements. This is why blanket assumptions about liberation theology, or Vatican II are useless. People are canonized as the example the present, be it scholarship, prayer, service, or martyrdom, not because they were perfect. Yes, some were pretty much there, but some, not so much.
The Church is diverse, as represented by the apostles, the saints, and likely, who we will be surprised to see in Heaven. So we have St. Peter and St. Jerome, but also St. Faustina; St. Pius X, but St. Romero. The cause for Dorothy Day, Servant of God, was opened under St. John Paul. There is no read to read anything into any of this, except the diversity of the Church, and the wideness of God’s mercy.
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Luke6_37
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Unfortunately, there is an aggressive and vocal part of the Church who see this diversity and wideness as a bug to be stamped out, rather than a feature to celebrate.
I don’t think I am making a rash judgement or misreading history by linking the canonization of Oscar Romero, who is the hero & martyr of Liberation theology, with a shift in what Pope Francis wants the Church to emphasize through civic and political action.
Pragmatically, this means that opposition to economic policies that provide a preferential option to the rich, that result in even greater income disparity between the wealthy and the poor, that maintain the status quo of wage stagnation, that fail to levey sufficient taxes to fund universal access to health care & education must be equally weighed against social policies that fuel the culture wars.
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Imdaman
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Oh Pish/Posh. no one is trying to stamp out diversity this is all in your head and although Romero is certainly a martyr to call him pro-LT is presumptuous of you. There is more evidence to the contrary. One does not become a saint as a martyr for a cause but for Christ and his Church.pnewton:
Unfortunately, there is an aggressive and vocal part of the Church who see this diversity and wideness as a bug to be stamped out, rather than a feature to celebrate.
I don’t think I am making a rash judgement or misreading history by linking the canonization of Oscar Romero, who is the hero & martyr of Liberation theology, with a shift in what Pope Francis wants the Church to emphasize through civic and political action.
Pragmatically, this means that opposition to economic policies that provide a preferential option to the rich, that result in even greater income disparity between the wealthy and the poor, that maintain the status quo of wage stagnation, that fail to levey sufficient taxes to fund universal access to health care & education must be equally weighed against social policies that fuel the culture wars.
As for the rest of your post, well… good luck with that!
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pnewton
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He is a martyr of the Eucharist, not of Liberation theology, which has been condemned as too Marxist.
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Luke6_37
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Romero was killed because of his political views & activism, not because he believed in the Real Presence.Luke6_37:
He is a martyr of the Eucharist, not of Liberation theology, which has been condemned as too Marxist.
Liberation Theology as a whole has NOT been condemned by the Church. The form preached by Fr. Gustavo Gutiérrez is centered on the Gospel and is a powerful influence on what Pope Francis sees as the mission of the Church.
I am not making this stuff up. It is repeatedly reported as such within the mainstream Catholic media:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...e-starting-point-of-liberation-theology-90963
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pnewton
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If you know this, then you should speak up. His killer was never caught and I am sure there would be a lot of interest if you know who killed him and why. It would be interesting to know that he was killed over theological differences and not political ones.
He was killed while celebrating Mass at a hospital. That is a fact. I prefer to stick with facts as they are said and avoid divisive speculation.
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Luke6_37
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It is not speculation that Pope Francis emphasizes solidarity with the poor and marginalized. This is the heart of Liberation Theology. This should not be divisive. Mary herself proclaims it in the Magnificat. If you don’t get this, you don’t get the Gospel.Luke6_37:
If you know this, then you should speak up. His killer was never caught and I am sure there would be a lot of interest if you know who killed him and why. It would be interesting to know that he was killed over theological differences and not political ones.
He was killed while celebrating Mass at a hospital. That is a fact. I prefer to stick with facts as they are said and avoid divisive speculation.
Luke 1:46-55 NABRE - - Bible Gateway
Liberation theology | Description, History, & Beliefs
Liberation theology, religious movement arising in late 20th-century Roman Catholicism and centered in Latin America. It sought to apply religious faith by aiding the poor and oppressed through involvement in political and civic affairs. It stresses active participation in changing unjust...
www.britannica.com
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pnewton
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The first is true, the second irrelevant. Christianity emphasizes solidarity with the poor an marginalized.
For those confused by this term and not understanding what is going in on, here is an article by then Cardinal Ratziger on the the
INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE “THEOLOGY OF LIBERATION”
I would strongly discourage from anyone trying to assume, assume and assume based on a canonization of all things, some shift in Church teaching. It i possible thought, since the whole liberation theology stuff is so poorly defined, that it could shift enough from its Marxist roots to be acceptable.
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