It's Official: Pope Repeals Excommunications of SSPX Bishops!

[Walking_Home]

Be careful of them…they are a really antisemitic journal run by pseudo-scholars whom no one in academia takes seriously. This article is not very convincing, either. It basis all its serious claims on dubious sources, and then surrounds them with a flurry of other convincing-looking quotations that do nothing to prove the main point…

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Quite frankly – now a days --anyone who can be labeled anti-semitic for just about any reason.

What seems to be going over some heads – is that in a way we are in a process of re-living history. Jews were put in concentration camps for who they were —now people are threatened with imprisonment for disagreeing with the "numbers’ and the “method” of death in the concentration camps.

 

[tuviskazinai]

I’ll tell you why even if it is politically incorrect to do so. There are those on this forum who positively loathe and despise the Traditional or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and everything associated with it. Quite frankly they hate it with a burning passion. They also loathe the SSPX, primarily due to their devotion to that form of the Mass. They will deliver other arguments for their hatred but the loathing of the Mass itself is almost always at the center of their rationale.

Thus the declaring of the excommunications to be ineffective really tears at them because the SSPX is the group primarily responsible for the Traditional or Extraordinary Form of the Mass even being around today. One of the major reasons that the indult proclaimed by Pope John Paul II was extended in the first place was for their benefit in an attempt to get them back into the Church.

So anything done that benefits the SSPX will be seen as a tacit endorsement of the Traditional or Extraordinary Form of the Mass in their eyes. And they cannot tolerate that, under any circumstances. Especially when you factor in the hatred they have for Archbishop Lefbvre himself. They fear now that his stance, far from being, how do they word it, the desperate acts of a disobedient French Bishop, instead will be seen as a valiant stand to hold on to the Church’s timeless traditions in the face of an onslaught of modernism.

As I said, it was probably politically incorrect to say that, but at times the truth needs to be said.

And lest anyone think that I am a SSPX supporter, I never have been. But I have never been their opponent either. I saw what they did, and I know why they did it. In many ways they have been proven to be correct. They still have some things they now must do, but if they do them, , then I think the whole episode will go down in history as a terrible terrible tragedy that need never have happened in the first place.

If this is true, it would be sad; there is so much to be appreciated in the Extraordinary rite!

But on what basis do you say that it’s the Mass that people loathe, and that their other arguments are just smoke and mirrors? My guess, based on people I’ve spoken to, would be that people object most of all to SSPX’s determined opposition to everything Vatican II stands for…and that actually, the beauty of the Tridentine Mass is the least of their problems.

Maybe we are just talking to different people…

Just a word, though, about “timeless traditions” and “modernism.” The Church has been changing all the time. The Mass has changed throughout the centuries, and so have doctrines and dogmas. Look at the Gregorian reform, for instance. That was huge and systematic, too, and there were absolutely people who objected to “modernizing” the Church back then. Does that mean that mean it was opposed to “timeless traditions”? I would like to know what “timeless traditions” Vatican II is opposed to which had never before changed since the times of Christ.

So then, “modernism” also has to be precisely defined. Just any old “update” to the Magisterium cannot be what is meant by modernism, or else the Gregorian reforms (to take just one example) would have been “modernist” too. When the popes around the turn of the century, 100 years ago, condemned “modernism” they meant a certain cluster of ideas that were prevalent at the time: capitalism, communism, atheism, relativism, etc. I don’t think that Vatican II is any of those things…! And yet that is what we should be on guard against, I think.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[Christus_Rex_1]

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Quite frankly – now a days --anyone who can be labeled anti-semitic for just about any reason.

What seems to be going over some heads – is that in a way we are in a process of re-living history. Jews were put in concentration camps for who they were —now people are threatened with imprisonment for disagreeing with the "numbers’ and the “method” of death in the concentration camps.

Have you ever wondered why it is ILLEGAL to even QUESTION alledged facts about the holocaust? The following may give us a clue…

zundelsite.org/english/antiprop/plaques/index.html

 

[laudamus_te]

Pray for me! I’m Discerning God’s Call to the religious life!

Orders I am pondering
Trinitarians
Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter

I pray daily for the sanctification of priests, and for an increase of priestly and religious vocations to the SSPX, and especially offer my prayers and sufferings for these intentions on Thursdays and Saturdays. Perhaps you will now consider the SSPX?
:byzsoc:

 

[ProVobis]

I know where I’m headed this Sunday!

OK, but please don’t forget your regular EF parish. This decree wasn’t meant to cause disunity.

 

[malphono]

This thread has gone way off topic. It’s NOT about WWII atrocities .

BUMP

 

[rpp]

I have not read much of this thread, I just want to express my sincere joy and prayerful hope that this sad chapter in Church History and public scandal will some be completely behind.

 

[tuviskazinai]

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Quite frankly – now a days --anyone who can be labeled anti-semitic for just about any reason.

What seems to be going over some heads – is that in a way we are in a process of re-living history. Jews were put in concentration camps for who they were —now people are threatened with imprisonment for disagreeing with the "numbers’ and the “method” of death in the concentration camps.

Even if what you say is true about how anyone can be labeled anti-semitic for any reason, that journal is expressly set up to deny the Holocaust, and its authors fudge facts all the time to support their ideological ends. I think that qualifies as anti-semitic.

Of course, there are lots of people who also fudge facts to make it look like Pius XII was completely silent during the Holocaust and was personally responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. (To take just one example of anti-Catholicism.) That isn’t honest either, but maybe the fact that it’s hurtful to us Catholics can get us to see that any attempt to base an ugly, prejudicial ideology on fudged facts is venomous, and that the terms “anti-semitic” and “anti-Catholic” can describe something very real.

I guess this isn’t the place for this debate – though I’d be happy to continue it on another thread – but I do have to say that I’m unconvinced by your comparison with the Holocaust. It’s a difference between killing people for having committed no crime at all and putting people in prison for making the free choice to contribute to an ugly ideology that pretends a horrific massacre didn’t exist. I don’t think that Holocaust denial should necessarily be a crime, either, but I certainly don’t think that you can compare what’s happening now to what happened then…except very, very tenuously.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[laudamus_te]

I see. What were the circumstances? Why were they lacking a papal mandate?

There is a wealth of information which is readily available, both on the internet and in published book form, which deals with what you are asking. For starters, why don’t you read the excellent articles from the publication Si Si No No which is available in its entirety on the SSPX website, and then draw your own conclusions. That is much better than receiving information that has been filtered through other people and their naturally biased opinions:
sspx.org/1988%20Consecration%20articles/1988_consecrations_theological_I.htm

 

[Lainey63]

The Germans were actually meticulous record keepers, at least in the camps themselves. . That has been proven even more so with the somewhat recent release of a number of previously classified sources of information. Not only did they record the numbers that were executed, but their names, ethnicities, place of birth family members, personal possessions confiscated and in some cases their physical attributes, tattoos etc.

Whether or not the actual number of those executed is ever actually known the carnage was horrific and must never be forgotten or minimized. Evil walked the Earth and had dominion big time in those years

On a personal tangent though, I would ask why there has never been the same moral outrage raised about the Japanese treatment of those under its domination during the same period. I know that the Japanese practiced a brutal form of suppression in the Philippines, I lost many relatives in that one and they positively brutalized those in the camps. This not even mentioning what they did to women. Why is this so ignored? Because their oppression was towards all instead of being more ethnically based?

Whenever I used to watch the History channel with my dad-he said the same thing the Japanese were just as brutal but they weren’t held accountable for their war crimes.

 

[Walking_Home]

Even if what you say is true about how anyone can be labeled anti-semitic for any reason, that journal is expressly set up to deny the Holocaust, and its authors fudge facts all the time to support their ideological ends. I think that qualifies as anti-semitic.

Of course, there are lots of people who also fudge facts to make it look like Pius XII was completely silent during the Holocaust and was personally responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. (To take just one example of anti-Catholicism.) That isn’t honest either, but maybe the fact that it’s hurtful to us Catholics can get us to see that any attempt to base an ugly, prejudicial ideology on fudged facts is venomous, and that the terms “anti-semitic” and “anti-Catholic” can describe something very real.

I guess this isn’t the place for this debate – though I’d be happy to continue it on another thread – but I do have to say that I’m unconvinced by your comparison with the Holocaust. It’s a difference between killing people for having committed no crime at all and putting people in prison for making the free choice to contribute to an ugly ideology that pretends a horrific massacre didn’t exist. I don’t think that Holocaust denial should necessarily be a crime, either, but I certainly don’t think that you can compare what’s happening now to what happened then…except very, very tenuously.

Peace,
+AMDG+

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I do not believe there is any evidence to back up that Bishop Williamson is denying the Holocaust therefore the charges of anti-semitism… He may disagree with the numbers and the method of death —but this does deny that people died in other horrific ways in the concentration camps. If disagreeing with the numbers/methods of death --is cause to be imprisoned --we are re-living history. The change from then to now is the “reason” for the imprisonment —From being a Jew to “disagreeing with numbers/method”.

 

[jblake]

tuviskazinai;:

What tradition are we talking about, exactly?

This is an extremely complicated situation. The differences involves a wide range of doctrinal and theological issues. To grossly oversimplify things, SSPX considers that the Tridentine Mass in Latin is the “proper” way to celebrate the mass. Post Vatican-2, there was a tremendous amount of hostility towards both the Tridentine Mass, and celebrating Mass in any language other than the Vulgar.

why do they deserve a graven apology?

For all practical purposes, the guy who (literally) told them that they were wrong, has admitted that they had legitimate points, and that He (as the guy whose paperwork led to their excommunication) was wrong on some points.

they believed the Vatican was under the influence of Satan, etc.) And I don’t find that very “Traditionalist” at all

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre saw the Vatican as giving in to the whims of Liberation Theology, especially when overtly and explicitly accompanied by Marxism as the political philosophy.

are so adamantly opposed to Vatican II

Two movies I’d suggest you study:

• Catholics (1973) (imdb.com/title/tt0069857/)
• The Shoes of the Fisherman (1968) (imdb.com/title/tt0063599/)

The audio and video quality of the first is horrible. (I’ve seriously thought about digitally remastering the copy I have, to Dobly 7.1 sound and 16:9 1080i video.)

The audio and video quality of the second is acceptable, but not that great.

I don’t know if the books are still in print. (Search Amazon to find out.)

jonathon

 

[I_Believe]

This is a good day for the Church.

But why was Archbishop Lefebvre not mentioned with the four ?

Was he excommunicated in the same decree now declared null ?

 

[tuviskazinai]

Thank you for the excellent response!

For all practical purposes, the guy who (literally) told them that they were wrong, has admitted that they had legitimate points, and that He (as the guy whose paperwork led to their excommunication) was wrong on some points.

Who is that guy, exactly? In the end, isn’t it the Pope (in this case, John Paul II) who affirms the excommunication?

And even if they had “legitimate points,” isn’t it still necessary to submit to the authority of the Pope?

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre saw the Vatican as giving in to the whims of Liberation Theology, especially when overtly and explicitly accompanied by Marxism as the political philosophy.

I understand his fear, but I mean, come on…where was his proof that the Vatican gave in to Liberation Theology? They’ve repeatedly denounced it. I’ll bet that if you asked any liberation theologian, he definitely wouldn’t count the Vatican among his biggest supporters!! And wouldn’t have just after V2, either.

My personal suspicion (though I’ll be the first to admit I know extremely little about the Archbishop) is that Lefebvre had more against certain other results of V2 – that people of other religions can be saved, that the Mass can be said in the vernacular, etc. – than just Liberation Theology…no? (Or at least, his case against those things would have been stronger!)

Also, thank you for the film recommendations.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[laudamus_te]

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I do not believe there is any evidence to back up that Bishop Williamson is denying the Holocaust therefore the charges of anti-semitism… He may disagree with the numbers and the method of death —but this does deny that people died in other horrific ways in the concentration camps. If disagreeing with the numbers/methods of death --is cause to be imprisoned --we are re-living history. The change from then to now is the “reason” for the imprisonment —From being a Jew to “disagreeing with numbers/method”.

It certainly isn’t coincidence that the untruthful headlines of the “Holocost-denying Bishop” have surfaced just prior to the lifting of the excommunications. Make no mistake that the devil is behind it. It would be nice if all Catholics would give the Bishop the benefit of the doubt rather than fall prey to the devil’s well-laid snares.

 

[mattkubes]

So…should I wait for more news before I attend a Mass at the SSPX chapel near me? I’ve never been to the EF, and neither of the parishes in my city will offer it (we have two parishes in a city of 130,000). But a 20 minute drive could have me attending my first EF Mass, and I’m excited about that prospect!

 

[jblake]

tuviskazinai;:

Who is that guy, exactly? In the end, isn’t it the Pope (in this case, John Paul II) who affirms the excommunication?

Benedict is the guy who did the paperwork.

And even if they had “legitimate points,” isn’t it still necessary to submit to the authority of the Pope?

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was willing to submit to the Pope. The issue is whether or not the effects of Vatican 2 can trump Canon Law.

where was his proof that the Vatican gave in to Liberation Theology?

Vatican 2 was a concession to Liberation Theology.

more against certain other results of V2 – … — than just Liberation Theology…no?

a) Most of those changes were indicative of the influence of Liberation Theology;

b) He railed far more against other effects, than he did against Liberation Theology;

jonathon

 

[steve_green_2]

http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object3/1297/116/l14771515311_9002.jpg

The week fraud obama becomes president. We NOW have something to celebrate !!!

 

[Extempore]

I’m looking forward to seeing how many new people are at Church tomorrow. It will be interesting.

If anyone here lives in the Houston, TX area, and wants to attend an SSPX Church for the first time with me, let me know.

I echo this offer for the Minneapolis/St. Paul area.

 

[pnewton]

I am very pleased fof those here and around the world that attend these chapels. I am also glad that now those who wish to attend a Traditional Mass, but did not have one available through their diocese close enough to attend, now have another option that no longer has a question mark as to their status.