It's still His Church

[justtryin]

Despite any and all problems perceived…

It’s still HIS Church.

Just sayin’.

Doesn’t matter if you’re traditional or (for lack of a better term) modern. Both can and do go too far at times.

For some reason I felt it needed to be said.

…
Full disclosure: I just want HIS Church. Being born in 1969 I just want the faith of my parents. They were obviously raised pre-Vatican II. I was raised in a time when these changes (sanctioned or not) were slowly being implemented. I can’t say which are “official” and which are “desired by men.” God help us before it is too late to know right from wrong.

 

[Big_Feet]

Despite any and all problems perceived…

It’s still HIS Church.

Just sayin’.

Doesn’t matter if you’re traditional or (for lack of a better term) modern. Both can and do go too far at times.

For some reason I felt it needed to be said.

I agree 100%!!!

 

[SurlyMermaid]

 

[Irish_Eyes_826]

Amen

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Sure, but we have free will.

I don’t agree with the statement that “Both sides can go too far”.

The problem is that the modern-liberal viewpoint is the popular one which can be stated without fear of official censure where the traditionalists are aliens in their own religion. And a small minority.

I don’t think you can over-emphasise just how wooly most Catholics thinking is on what is required of them. From the 70’s onwards thorough education in doctrine ceased. That void is now filled by a kind of Catholic Anglicanism: basically Christian, quite ‘nice’, with a few personally held deviations from doctrine and tradition.

e.g. maybe we don’t believe in transubstantiation any more, the sacred nature of the priesthood, the authority of the Pope, the danger of Hell etc.

Here are some questions for you:

In what ways are most Catholics not like Protestants nowadays?
In what ways is your Sunday Mass not like the Anglican/Lutheran equivalent?
In what ways is your church identifiable as Catholic to someone who can’t read?

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Of course, it is still His church (and it always will be) but she’s gone off the rails a bit. :bigyikes:

 

[Big_Feet]

… but she’s gone off the rails a bit. :bigyikes:

Huh?? Can you please explain this attack on the Church?
Where is the evidence that She has gone off of the"rails"?

Thanks.

 

[TimothyH]

Of course, it is still His church (and it always will be) but she’s gone off the rails a bit. :bigyikes:

The Church does not go off the rails. The Church is Christ’s bride, gurarded jealously by God.

It is frail and weak humanity - individual people - who go off the rails. And they do so first by demanding their own will in every way.

Humilty is the forgotten virtue. I’m not talking about humiliation, but humility, knowing who God really is and who we are in relation to God. I’m talking about the right ordering of ourselves in relationship to God. If we really understood that, we would leave a puddle of tears in the pew.

-Tim-

 

[NewsTheMan]

The Church does not go off the rails.

The Church is human and Divine. The human part of the Church certainly does go off the rails, and that is happening right now. Anybody who denies that there is a crisis of faith in the Church (laity and clergy) has their head buried in the sand.

 

[puzzleannie]

Doesn’t matter if you’re traditional or (for lack of a better term) modern. Both can and do go too far at times.
.

if we are all part of His Church there are not “sides”.

 

[Big_Feet]

The Church is human and Divine. The human part of the Church certainly does go off the rails, and that is happening right now. Anybody who denies that there is a crisis of faith in the Church (laity and clergy) has their head buried in the sand.

I disagree. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and as said before, is guarded by God. The individuals within His Church are human, yes, but even as much as the individuals may sin, the Church does not. Please someone show me where THE CHURCH has gone off “the rails.”

 

[TimothyH]

The Church is human and Divine. The human part of the Church certainly does go off the rails, and that is happening right now. Anybody who denies that there is a crisis of faith in the Church (laity and clergy) has their head buried in the sand.

NTM, I thought you had me on ignore by now.

For me personaly, the only crisis of faith I am worried about is my own and my childrens, and maybe those who are close to me. That is where God placed me. I’ll worry about what happens in some parish seven states away when I become the Holy Father. If that means I have my head in the sand, so be it.

***God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

---

You know I used to hate that prayer. Then when I was left alone to raise two young girls by myself, I realized what a powerful prayer that really is.

I personally find the endless complaining aout things which are out of our control, while we all drive SUV’s and stand around drinking $5 lattes, as childish. But then again, I’m not in control of it, and God could change it in an instant if he wanted.

-Tim-

 

[NewsTheMan]

I disagree. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and as said before, is guarded by God. The individuals within His Church are human, yes, but even as much as the individuals may sin, the Church does not. Please someone show me where THE CHURCH has gone off “the rails.”

You disagree that the Church is both human and divine?
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Church - both visible and spiritual

771 "The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope, and charity, as a visible organization through which he communicates truth and grace to all men."184 The Church is at the same time:

• a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;
• the visible society and the spiritual community;
• the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches."185

These dimensions together constitute “one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element”:186

The Church is essentially both human and divine, visible but endowed with invisible realities, zealous in action and dedicated to contemplation, present in the world, but as a pilgrim, so constituted that in her the human is directed toward and subordinated to the divine, the visible to the invisible, action to contemplation, and this present world to that city yet to come, the object of our quest.187

O humility! O sublimity! Both tabernacle of cedar and sanctuary of God; earthly dwelling and celestial palace; house of clay and royal hall; body of death and temple of light; and at last both object of scorn to the proud and bride of Christ! She is black but beautiful, O daughters of Jerusalem, for even if the labor and pain of her long exile may have discolored her, yet heaven's beauty has adorned her.188

For me personaly, the only crisis of faith I am worried about is my own and my childrens, and maybe those who are close to me. That is where God placed me. I’ll worry about what happens in some parish seven states away when I become the Holy Father. If that means I have my head in the sand, so be it.

It’s not my place to tell you what to do with yourself and your relationship with the Church. However, I see it is cowardly to only be concerned with your immediate family. Some regard it as humility to say “Oh, I am only worried about little old me” but this is a false and dangerous humility. We are all one under Christ. When your brother 100 miles away is destroying the faith you bet it’s your business. You were baptized to defend the faith brother, not to hide your head in the sand and hope somebody else is doing the job. Of course, that doesn’t mean we sit around and gossip about who is in the dog box nor do we wait around to nail somebody for heresy. However, there is a crisis in the Church, and God has placed you in this very time not so that you can just bury your head in your immediate 20 mile radius. Your very presence on this board shows that not even you believe the words you say - since you wouldn’t be here making what you consider to be helpful and edifying posts if you didn’t care about the state of the Church, not so? Of course, you and your family come first, nobody denies that. You do have a larger family. I can bet my bottom dollar you do care, and that you do help out in some way either physically or by prayer. There’s a fear among Catholics on the Internet that if they do something or acknowledge the crisis BOOM they turn into a sedevacantist. I don’t know why. We need all the help we can get at the moment to bring the human element back on track.

Anyway, just my thoughts, no need to take them seriously. Peace all.

 

[jam070406]

You disagree that the Church is both human and divine?

It’s not my place to tell you what to do with yourself and your relationship with the Church. However, I see it is cowardly to only be concerned with your immediate family. Some regard it as humility to say “Oh, I am only worried about little old me” but this is a false and dangerous humility. We are all one under Christ. When your brother 100 miles away is destroying the faith you bet it’s your business. You were baptized to defend the faith brother, not to hide your head in the sand and hope somebody else is doing the job. Of course, that doesn’t mean we sit around and gossip about who is in the dog box nor do we wait around to nail somebody for heresy. However, there is a crisis in the Church, and God has placed you in this very time not so that you can just bury your head in your immediate 20 mile radius. Your very presence on this board shows that not even you believe the words you say - since you wouldn’t be here making what you consider to be helpful and edifying posts if you didn’t care about the state of the Church, not so? Of course, you and your family come first, nobody denies that. You do have a larger family. I can bet my bottom dollar you do care, and that you do help out in some way either physically or by prayer. There’s a fear among Catholics on the Internet that if they do something or acknowledge the crisis BOOM they turn into a sedevacantist. I don’t know why. We need all the help we can get at the moment to bring the human element back on track.

Anyway, just my thoughts, no need to take them seriously. Peace all.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Church is human and Divine. The human part of the Church certainly does go off the rails, and that is happening right now. Anybody who denies that there is a crisis of faith in the Church (laity and clergy) has their head buried in the sand.

When was a time where there was no crisis in the faith?

 

[NewsTheMan]

When was a time where there was no crisis in the faith?

While there has always been an element of… well, put it this way, we are fallen, so there will always be a concern about the here and now and how bad it is. We are all waiting for Christ to come, so your point there is taken in a sense. However, the crisis in the Church is extremely bad, and to brush it off as if it is the status quo for the Church to be in a crisis such as this one is a-historical.

So I will give an answer in the form of statistics.

Active Priests:
1965 - 58.000
2002 - 45.000

Ordinations:
1965 - 1.575
2002 - 450

Priestless Parishes:
1965 - 549 (about 1%)
2002 - 2.928 (about 15%)

Seminarians:
1965 - 49.000
2002 - 4.700

Sisters:
1965 - 180.000
2002 - 75.000

Brothers:
1965 - 12.000
2002 - 5.700

Jesuits:
1965 - 5.277
2002 - 3.172

Franciscans:
1965 - 2.534
2002 - 1.492

Christian Brothers:
1965 - 2.434
2002 - 959

Redemptorists:
1965 - 1.148
2002 - 349

Catholic High Schools:
1965 - 1.566
2002 - 786

Catholic High School Students:
1965 - 700.000
2002 - 386.000

Parochial Grade Schools:
1965 - 10.504
2002 - 6.623

Parochial Grade School Students:
1965 - 4,5 million
2002 - 1,9 million

Infant Baptisms:
1965 - 1,3 million
2002 - 1 million

Adult Baptisms (conversions):
1965 - 126.000
2002 - 80.000

Catholic Marriages:
1965 - 352.000
2002 - 256.000

Annulments:
1965 - 338
2002 - 50.000

Regular Mass Attendance - study #1:
1958 - 74% of Catholics (Gallup Pole)
1994 - 26.6% (Notre Dame study)

Regular Mass Attendance - Fordham University study:
1965 - 65% of Catholics
2000 - 25%

Misc. (source, National Catholic Reporter)
77% believe Catholics don’t have to attend Mass on Sunday
65% believe Catholics can divorce and remarry
53% believe Catholics can have an abortion
10% accept the Church’s teaching on birth control (source, Notre Dame poll)
70% believe the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Our Lord (New York Times poll)

 

[Big_Feet]

You disagree that the Church is both human and divine?

It’s not my place to tell you what to do with yourself and your relationship with the Church. However, I see it is cowardly to only be concerned with your immediate family. Some regard it as humility to say “Oh, I am only worried about little old me” but this is a false and dangerous humility. We are all one under Christ. When your brother 100 miles away is destroying the faith you bet it’s your business. You were baptized to defend the faith brother, not to hide your head in the sand and hope somebody else is doing the job. Of course, that doesn’t mean we sit around and gossip about who is in the dog box nor do we wait around to nail somebody for heresy. However, there is a crisis in the Church, and God has placed you in this very time not so that you can just bury your head in your immediate 20 mile radius. Your very presence on this board shows that not even you believe the words you say - since you wouldn’t be here making what you consider to be helpful and edifying posts if you didn’t care about the state of the Church, not so? Of course, you and your family come first, nobody denies that. You do have a larger family. I can bet my bottom dollar you do care, and that you do help out in some way either physically or by prayer. There’s a fear among Catholics on the Internet that if they do something or acknowledge the crisis BOOM they turn into a sedevacantist. I don’t know why. We need all the help we can get at the moment to bring the human element back on track.

Anyway, just my thoughts, no need to take them seriously. Peace all.

Still, no examples of where you feel the Church is off of it’s rails. If it is now, then, being human, hasnt it always been a bit “off it’s rails”?

 

[jam070406]

Still, no examples of where you feel the Church is off of it’s rails. If it is now, then, being human, hasnt it always been a bit “off it’s rails”?

Seriously!? He just gave you a long list in the post above yours.

 

[Big_Feet]

Seriously!? He just gave you a long list in the post above yours.

SORRY!!!
I was in the middle of my post, and had to leave my computer, and then posted, only to find the above posts. sheesh…sorry.

It would be refreshing to find some “charity” in this forum from time to time.

 

[TrueLight]

And this is a perfect example of what I was speaking of in another thread about threads that are bait.

Everyone knows it is still the Church of Christ. That is a given.

This type of thread is aimed at those who believe there are some issues and are praying and working for change.

So then those people respond and tend to respond defensively.

And then they get in trouble.