I've never been baptized- Do I get less of God's greatness?

[opusAquinas]

Wouldn’t that mean that God is playing favorites?

Anyways, good luck to OP. I do recommend that you get baptized.

Ok. How about we equate Love with God’s mercy. And God’s hatred with justice.

God loves equally? No, I think He is more merciful to some than others.

There is a hierarchy in heaven and in hell.

Also, OP should be baptized as soon as possible if you have this love.

 

[opusAquinas]

This is very misguided and incorrect information that you are stating here. Why do I get the feeling you know this and are intentially misleading the OP with this specious reply to her questions?

Again, how is it wrong?

Lots of people believe this is true. …in my experience…

 

[Jeanne_S]

Again, how is it wrong?

Lots of people believe this is true. …in my experience…

Your understanding of Purgatory,is sorely lacking.The purpose of Purgatory is to clense us of any remaing sin for which we have not done proper expiation on earth. To assume that one can go through life ,namby pamby,rejecting God’s commands,then by having a "Come to Jesus " moment right before death,or just later in life,will get a pass and move right into Heaven is not the way it works.just because you and others you know believe this to be true,doesn’t make it so.
As others have suggested,a study of the Cathecism,should help you to gain a better understanding of our Catholic faith.
Secondly,God IS love.To suggest he favors one over another is also a poor understanding of our Creator.
Life isn’t fair,some people experience what seems to be an inordinate amount of suffering while on earth.This ties into the Christian understanding of Redemptive Suffering.Which if lovingly and patiently embraced,as Christ asks us,will in fact lead one on the path to Heaven more quickly.

 

[porthos11]

I don’t mean this in a mean or harsh way, but to answer the OP’s question: “Do I get less of God’s greatness if I’m not baptized?”

At one level, you do have God’s greatness because you exist and are alive, and your existence is a testimony to God’s greatness.

At the more important level though, you have none of God’s life, because you have no sanctifying grace. At this point, you are God’s creature; you are not God’s child. This is not an awful or terrible thing to say, although it’s blunt, but all of us went through this stage. We were all born dead, without God’s life in us.

To answer your other questions: even though you feel you have a relationship with God, it’s only that between a Creator and creature, albeit, with a Creator who loves you very much. It’s not the relationship of adoption that makes you God’s child. It’s also impossible to please God without sanctifying grace.

So does that mean, however, that you are offending God by praying? Not in the least. Because God is good and merciful, these feelings and movements you have are clearly promptings brought about by actual grace—undeserved aids and helps that move you toward forming that familial relationship with God. So keep it up; keep praying and doing good because although by themselves, cannot save you, God is clearly rewarding you with the movement of his Holy Spirit towards baptism.

When you are baptized, keep in mind that you enter the water a dead creature, just as Jesus was placed dead in the tomb. But when you arise, you are a new creation; and you are just as resurrected as Jesus was when he rose from the tomb. Your baptism will be the occasion of a great miracle, while veiled from human eyes, is no less great than the miracles wrought by Jesus when he still walked among us. For those of us who were baptized as infants, it’s something we will never perceive. You, on the other hand have a wonderful opportunity to relish this for the rest of your life.

 

[opusAquinas]

Your understanding of Purgatory,is sorely lacking.The purpose of Purgatory is to clense us of any remaing sin for which we have not done proper expiation on earth. To assume that one can go through life ,namby pamby,rejecting God’s commands,then by having a "Come to Jesus " moment right before death,or just later in life,will get a pass and move right into Heaven is not the way it works.just because you and others you know believe this to be true,doesn’t make it so.
As others have suggested,a study of the Cathecism,should help you to gain a better understanding of our Catholic faith.
Secondly,God IS love.To suggest he favors one over another is also a poor understanding of our Creator.
Life isn’t fair,some people experience what seems to be an inordinate amount of suffering while on earth.This ties into the Christian understanding of Redemptive Suffering.Which if lovingly and patiently embraced,as Christ asks us,will in fact lead one on the path to Heaven more quickly.

The purpose of purgatory is the temporal punishment of sin. If you get an indulgence like they would sell during the reformation you could get out of purgatory. So you “automatically” don’t have to pay the temporal punishment for your sins and you are instantly cleansed and you go straight to heave. Enjoy presto!
God is more merciful to some than others. This is what we mean by God loves me. It means He is merciful to me. So God does not love our Blessed Mother more than others. There is a hierarchy in heaven…why?

 

[opusAquinas]

I don’t mean this in a mean or harsh way, but to answer the OP’s question: “Do I get less of God’s greatness if I’m not baptized?”

At one level, you do have God’s greatness because you exist and are alive, and your existence is a testimony to God’s greatness.

At the more important level though, you have none of God’s life, because you have no sanctifying grace. At this point, you are God’s creature; you are not God’s child. This is not an awful or terrible thing to say, although it’s blunt, but all of us went through this stage. We were all born dead, without God’s life in us.

To answer your other questions: even though you feel you have a relationship with God, it’s only that between a Creator and creature, albeit, with a Creator who loves you very much. It’s not the relationship of adoption that makes you God’s child. It’s also impossible to please God without sanctifying grace.

So does that mean, however, that you are offending God by praying? Not in the least. Because God is good and merciful, these feelings and movements you have are clearly promptings brought about by actual grace—undeserved aids and helps that move you toward forming that familial relationship with God. So keep it up; keep praying and doing good because although by themselves, cannot save you, God is clearly rewarding you with the movement of his Holy Spirit towards baptism.

When you are baptized, keep in mind that you enter the water a dead creature, just as Jesus was placed dead in the tomb. But when you arise, you are a new creation; and you are just as resurrected as Jesus was when he rose from the tomb. Your baptism will be the occasion of a great miracle, while veiled from human eyes, is no less great than the miracles wrought by Jesus when he still walked among us. For those of us who were baptized as infants, it’s something we will never perceive. You, on the other hand have a wonderful opportunity to relish this for the rest of your life.

This is well put to encourage the actual baptism.

 

[Jeanne_S]

The purpose of purgatory is the temporal punishment of sin. If you get an indulgence like they would sell during the reformation you could get out of purgatory. So you “automatically” don’t have to pay the temporal punishment for your sins and you are instantly cleansed and you go straight to heave. Enjoy presto!
God is more merciful to some than others. This is what we mean by God loves me. It means He is merciful to me. So God does not love our Blessed Mother more than others. There is a hierarchy in heaven…why?

You are oversimplifying plenary indulgence.If one meets the criteria,ie: going to Reconciliation with a firm desire to amend sinful ways,attends Mass and receives the Eucharist within the prescribed time frame,then I suppose if immediately after,they were to die,they may very well bypass Purgatory.However,in most cases this isn’t the outcome.
Because of our sinful nature,it is pretty difficult to remain sinless.

 

[opusAquinas]

You are oversimplifying plenary indulgence.If one meets the criteria,ie: going to Reconciliation with a firm desire to amend sinful ways,attends Mass and receives the Eucharist within the prescribed time frame,then I suppose if immediately after,they were to die,they may very well bypass Purgatory.However,in most cases this isn’t the outcome.
Because of our sinful nature,it is pretty difficult to remain sinless.

Indulgences were for sale for centuries until Martin Luther protested. They may still be issued. hmm…like to whom?

 

[John_Martin]

Indulgences were for sale for centuries until Martin Luther protested. They may still be issued. hmm…like to whom?

Luther, as you correctly termed it, “protested”. But the understanding of Indulgences was “reformed” to what it actually was and is with the Council of Trent.

And if you study Aquinas, as your name hints, you will know that one person paying a debt for another is acceptable to God’s Justice. The punishment of Purgatory is a time of punishment for the debt owed by the Soul of a person for satisfactions it has “enjoyed” unlawfully (stolen pleasures) - it is a time of suffering the lack of any satisfaction of the will’s desire (much like a person in prison suffers the lack of satisfaction to move and act freely in society for the time of a sentence). But there are times when someone else can step in and pay the debt, thus limiting or eliminating the punishment. “Thirty dollars or thirty days” - a friend comes along who is willing to do without the personal enjoyment he could have with his $30, and pays your fine for you, and so you do not have to spend the thirty days in jail. Justice requires someone suffer the lack of their will’s satisfaction to equalize for the stolen satisfaction of the sin.

Now, again, go back and read Aquinas - you will find all the answers there, and you will then also know what a great name you chose for your time on this site.
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.toc.html

John Martin

 

[opusAquinas]

Luther, as you correctly termed it, “protested”. But the understanding of Indulgences was “reformed” to what it actually was and is with the Council of Trent.

And if you study Aquinas, as your name hints, you will know that one person paying a debt for another is acceptable to God’s Justice. The punishment of Purgatory is a time of punishment for the debt owed by the Soul of a person for satisfactions it has “enjoyed” unlawfully (stolen pleasures) - it is a time of suffering the lack of any satisfaction of the will’s desire (much like a person in prison suffers the lack of satisfaction to move and act freely in society for the time of a sentence). But there are times when someone else can step in and pay the debt, thus limiting or eliminating the punishment. “Thirty dollars or thirty days” - a friend comes along who is willing to do without the personal enjoyment he could have with his $30, and pays your fine for you, and so you do not have to spend the thirty days in jail. Justice requires someone suffer the lack of their will’s satisfaction to equalize for the stolen satisfaction of the sin.

Now, again, go back and read Aquinas - you will find all the answers there, and you will then also know what a great name you chose for your time on this site.
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.toc.html

You make no sense. You answer no one.

Ivy or Community?

 

[John_Martin]

You make no sense. You answer no one.

Ivy or Community?

You, yourself, brought up Purgatory and Indulgences, saying that with an indulgence, punishment was eliminated. But, as stated in my post as found in Aquinas’ Summa, there is a payment of what is due, either by the person in Purgatory, or by someone who suffers the “cost” of the indulgence, or by the Saint whose suffering in this life is meted out with the indulgence. The punishment is not forgiven, but, is actually assumed by another.
So, I answered your mistaken notion of the elimination of the payment of debt.

In a way, you seem to be sharing a notion of forgiveness and justification similar to the protestant Lutherans, that justification is simply the declaration of “not guilty” to one who is still guilty - that is not justification. Justification is the actual modification of one who is guilty into a good person. It is the granting of Virtue to one who is without virtue, as a Gift, so that now the person can actually do virtuous acts. This Gift is given in Baptism when the Church, by baptizing us into union with Christ, grants us the Holy Spirit (“Receive the Holy Spirit”).

John Martin

 

[BrunoMaria]

I’m 17 and I’ve never been baptized.

Did you get baptized in the meantime?
If not - get your connection to God now!

 

[opusAquinas]

You, yourself, brought up Purgatory and Indulgences, saying that with an indulgence, punishment was eliminated. But, as stated in my post as found in Aquinas’ Summa, there is a payment of what is due, either by the person in Purgatory, or by someone who suffers the “cost” of the indulgence, or by the Saint whose suffering in this life is meted out with the indulgence. The punishment is not forgiven, but, is actually assumed by another.
So, I answered your mistaken notion of the elimination of the payment of debt.

In a way, you seem to be sharing a notion of forgiveness and justification similar to the protestant Lutherans, that justification is simply the declaration of “not guilty” to one who is still guilty - that is not justification. Justification is the actual modification of one who is guilty into a good person. It is the granting of Virtue to one who is without virtue, as a Gift, so that now the person can actually do virtuous acts. This Gift is given in Baptism when the Church, by baptizing us into union with Christ, grants us the Holy Spirit (“Receive the Holy Spirit”).

John Martin

The rich pay out of pocket.

This is getting off topic.

I said OP can wait to get baptized then all op’s sins are forgiven and no time in purgatory.

 

[Jeanne_S]

The rich pay out of pocket.

This is getting off topic.

I said OP can wait to get baptized then all op’s sins are forgiven and no time in purgatory.

And,you are still incorrect in your statement.Please get educated on your faith…read the Cathecism.

 

[pianistclare]

The rich pay out of pocket.

This is getting off topic.

I said OP can wait to get baptized then all op’s sins are forgiven and no time in purgatory.

Counseling another to put off his relationship with God for the convenience of being able to sin unfettered due to your misunderstanding of Catholic teachings is a grave matter.

Knock it off, eh?
Others have been very patient. If you want to discount all their helpful explanations, that’s fine…
Go see a priest with your theories. If you really care, educate yourself, through your priest.
I think you will find it enlightening. And isn’t that the point?
Or do you have another agenda?
Peace.

 

[opusAquinas]

Counseling another to put off his relationship with God for the convenience of being able to sin unfettered due to your misunderstanding of Catholic teachings is a grave matter.

Knock it off, eh?
Others have been very patient. If you want to discount all their helpful explanations, that’s fine…
Go see a priest with your theories. If you really care, educate yourself, through your priest.
I think you will find it enlightening. And isn’t that the point?
Or do you have another agenda?
Peace.

I recommended baptism right away as you will see in my earlier posts. However baptism of desire is fine - I have often heard this recommended by many to prospective Christians to wait. I was offering op the options.

 

[opusAquinas]

And,you are still incorrect in your statement.Please get educated on your faith…read the Cathecism.

You are wrong. Yes money pays the debt. As you can pay to have others pray.

 

[John_Martin]

I recommended baptism right away as you will see in my earlier posts. However baptism of desire is fine - I have often heard this recommended by many to prospective Christians to wait. I was offering op the options.

Okay, when a person “waits” or postpones baptism that means, “I do not consent to becoming part of Christ at this time”, which means, “I do not desire baptism at this time”, and so there is no “baptism of desire” in a person who themselves postpones baptism.

Another person, desiring to be baptized, and having it scheduled for Easter Vigil, is desiring it and each day coming one day closer to what is desired, but is at a bank that is held up, is taken hostage, and is killed in the chase with police by the bank robbers. That person, not the first person, has the baptism of desire.

When you tell a person to wait, you, as a representative of Christ, are telling the person in Christ’s name, that Christ does not want them but to hold off in case he wants them at some future date. Andrew and Simon, James and John, were not “ready” to be Christ’s followers, but Jesus called them “now”, it was the acceptable time of his presence with them. No one is “ready” to know what a great thing happens when they are baptized, but you are counseling them to remain outside the Church, where there is no new life. You are counseling them to remain in the world and of the world, rather than receiving new birth and living a new life by faith in the Son of God. Why? What is to fear of Purgatory if it comes? Everyone in Purgatory is joyful at having been baptized when they were baptized, none regret it in the least.

John Martin

 

[Lek]

Plus if you get baptized now ALL your sins are forgiven and you don’t go to purgatory for them - this is why lots of people try to wait until the last minute to be baptized especially people who are “secret” Christians like Jews etc.

Theologically speaking you can kill and rape and plunder but wait until you are baptized then all your sins are forgiven and you don’t go to purgatory for any of the sins you’ve committed… that’s why the slippery Christians wait until the last moment.

Interestingly God knows this but He seems fine with it…

People also get indulgences for the same reason… this was big business back in the day… they still do it now but it’s more hush-hush…

If someone plans to continually sin until right before death and then get baptized, that baptism is not going to do a thing for him. He has no true repentance for his sins and is not a follower of Christ. God does know your mind, cares, and he knows the difference between true repentance and making a plan to “get over” on him. You’re on the right track. If you truly are ready to follow Christ now is the time to be baptized. You’re following Christ’s desire for you to be baptized. I don’t think God is a legalist, waiting to see if you get baptized before you die, so he can determine whether you’ll go to heaven or hell… He’s looking at your heart and your desire to follow him.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I’m 17 and I’ve never been baptized. I don’t come from an agnostic or atheistic family, it’s just my mom and step dad don’t go to church (they come from baptist backgrounds, not catholic). So usually, I’ve went to church with my friends a couple of times and on some occasions when my family went. I’ve always felt bad about not being baptized because it’s a big deal and my friends were all baptized when they were babies. So it’s kind of embarrassing saying I’ve never been and I’m a teenager. I never wanted to confront a church about it because I was scared about being judged by it and plus I felt like I didn’t even go to church enough to get baptised. Fortunately, I’ve always felt I’ve had a relationship with God and I have prayed ever since I was little. As of now, I am taking the classes to get baptized into the Catholic Church next month. The past couple of days I have been attempting at praying the Rosary. The first Luminous Mystery is the Baptism of Jesus and my little Rosary booklet said to think about and live my baptismal promises… I got kinda sad because I haven’t made such promises (yet). So I felt I was offending God and Mary for praying the rosary.
Anyway, what I mean about my question is am I not getting all of God’s affection (?). I don’t know how to put it without it sounding weird. Like do people who are already baptised get more priority and their prayers answered? My prayers are usually answered in some way but is God holding back on somethings because I’m not Baptised?

(sorry if I put this thread in the wrong catagory)

The answers to your thread title is YES. Yes, you get less of God’s greatness if you are not baptized. Catholics do not believe that baptism is some sort of symbolic act where we just make promises to God (although there are promises). The Catechism will clarify what we believe about baptism and I know you are learning about it in your class. But the basic gist is that when you are baptized:

YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT! You are born again from above.

You are washed perfectly clean from all sin. This is essentially where God initially applies the grace merited by Jesus on the cross.

You are adopted into the family of God and become a member of the Church, the Body of Christ.

You are sealed with an indelible mark which we call the domincus character.

Here is the link to the catechism scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1257

Baptism is necessary for salvation although water baptism is not. As noted, there are other forms of baptism. Water baptism is the norm for baptism. I cannot emphasize how important Baptism is.

As to the answering of prayers and God’s affection for you, I can say that God loves you dearly. Enough to send His only Son to save you. However, the Scripture says that the prayer of the righteous avail much (Jas 5:16). We are made righteous in Christ Jesus Who is the Righteous One. When we are baptized we die with Him and are raised up in Him. So, since you have not yet received the Holy Spirit and been adopted into the Body of Christ, you lack the righteousness that “avails much”. (That’s not said to make you feel bad, it where all of us were before our baptisms. I wasn’t baptized until my mid twenties.) Of course, you desire your baptism and you are trying to live in faith so I’m sure God hears your prayers; they just might not avail as much as you’d like at the present time. While you await baptism ask the saints in heaven to intercede for you! No one on earth is a righteous as one in heaven.