I've never heard a good answer from non-Catholic Christians re: Matt. 18:15-17

[AgnosTheist]

anyway what is the Roman Catholic explanation for this verse, and how do catholics follow this teaching of jesus? looks like this teaching holds no meaning to catholics. when a catholic does something wrong to another catholic, they either duke it out mano el mano, or they go to the police.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The scenarios assume this too. I’ve already said this I thought. It is a dispute between two members of the Body of Christ.

i think jesus was referring to members of a local church. like its not about a confrontation between the member of the church in jerusalem and the church in corinth. think about it: if visitor from china (who is a chinese roman catholic) visited your town in america and did something bad to you, what would you do if he wont listen to you or your catholic friends? how do you apply jesus’ teaching there?

 

[Ginger2]

If this is the “church” to which Jesus is referring, yes. There’s no getting around the truth.

Ok, first you have to establish which church teaches what is true.

Protestants determine that according to whether or not their teachings agree or contradict Scripture.

Catholics determine it by whether or not their teachings agree with Catholic dogma - which often varies between the different Catholic denominations. (ie Orthodox, Eastern and Roman)

If you are going to say well maybe the Jews are right, maybe the Baptists are correct, maybe my Catholic church is correct, then you are will never have a way to measure who is right and who is wrong.

My suggestion is: 1. if you like believing everyone is right, you should join the Universal church because it doesn’t matter, anyway. 2. If you are seeking truth from God start praying to the one and only God - the true God who created you and no one else. And start reading the Bible. If you do this with a sincere heart, God will eventually lead you to the truth. If you do this secretly hoping to justify your own desires, God will allow you to have your freewill choice.

Afterward, you will find the answer to your problem. You will either know and accept God’s will, or you will follow your own.

But no one (unless they are mentally challenged) is so indecisive as in the scenario you have just laid out.

 

[AgnosTheist]

You will either know and accept God’s will, or you will follow your own.

i wanna hear God’s will from God himself, not from you, not from an obscure book with an obscure message and authorship.

 

[Lampo]

anyway what is the Roman Catholic explanation for this verse, and how do catholics follow this teaching of jesus? looks like this teaching holds no meaning to catholics.

First, the ENTIRE deposit of Faith (written and spoken word) is of utmost importance to Catholics.

Catholics do what Jesus said to do. The Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

The apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

In Matt 18:17-18, Jesus is clearly telling us that the Church is the final authority on questions of faith or discipline. Jesus says to take the wayward brother to the Church for reproval. Now, God would not command us to do the impossible. This means that God would have provided us with the information necessary to understand what “Church” He was talking about. Since Jesus uses “Church” only one other time (in Matt 16:18), it is obvious that this Church must mean the one He built upon St. Peter.

The Scriptural, patristic and historical records demonstrate that this Church could only be the Catholic Church. There was no other Church around at the time these words were penned. Moreover, only the Catholic Church can demonstrate a continuity and consistency in doctrine and morals which would be necessary if we are to make any sense out of Jesus’ words in Matt 18:17-18.

Where does the Baptist take his Pentecostal brother? Where does the Lutheran take his Methodist sister? Jesus’ words demand that there be one, authoritative institution to resolve the doctrinal or disciplinary issue. If not, then Jesus’ words would mean little. We would never have any consistency on doctrine and morals, the very ingredients that are necessary to our salvation. God is one and His Church is one. A kingdom divided against itself will not stand. That is why the Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years, and the Protestant sects continue to splinter by the thousands each year.

I realize this verse is a tough pill for Protestants to swallow. They want to argue that the Bible is the only and final authority. However, not only does the Bible never say that, the Bible tells us the Church is the final authority. So, if they want to be faithful to the Bible, then they have to follow the Church. Of course, this forces them to determine what “Church” this is. And if they are truly honest with themselves, they know there is no other recourse than joining the Catholic Church.

 

[Ginger2]

i wanna hear God’s will from God himself, not from you, not from an obscure book with an obscure message and authorship.

Do you really want to “hear God’s will” for your life? Or are you being obstinate?

 

[AgnosTheist]

In Matt 18:17-18, Jesus is clearly telling us that the Church is the final authority on questions of faith or discipline.

ok so if a catholic wont stop insulting you, should you take him to your priest, or to the police?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Do you really want to “hear God’s will” for your life?

of course i do! i wanna know exactly what god wants for us, for me. i’m all ears.

 

[Lampo]

Ok, first you have to establish which church teaches what is true.

Done.

Protestants determine that according to whether or not their teachings agree or contradict Scripture.

But the Church existed BEFORE Scripture.

=Ginger2;2877888Catholics determine it by whether or not their teachings agree with Catholic dogma - which often varies between the different Catholic denominations. (ie Orthodox, Eastern and Roman)

Actually, Church Dogma doesn’t differ AT ALL between the different Rites. All Rites are in communion with the Holy See. The Catholic Church teaches ONE set of doctrines and NONE of them conflict with one another or Scripture.

If you are going to say well maybe the Jews are right, maybe the Baptists are correct, maybe my Catholic church is correct, then you are will never have a way to measure who is right and who is wrong.

Thank God Catholics have a way to measure what is true - Tradition, Scripture, Papal Infallibility and the Magesterium.

My suggestion is: 1. if you like believing everyone is right, you should join the Universal church because it doesn’t matter, anyway.

I don’t. Not everyone can be right.

1. If you are seeking truth from God start praying to the one and only God - the true God who created you and no one else. And start reading the Bible. If you do this with a sincere heart, God will eventually lead you to the truth. If you do this secretly hoping to justify your own desires, God will allow you to have your freewill choice.

That’s why I’m Catholic!

Afterward, you will find the answer to your problem. You will either know and accept God’s will, or you will follow your own.

Yep, the reason we are here on Earth - to know God, to love God and to serve God!

 

[Lampo]

ok so if a catholic wont stop insulting you, should you take him to your priest, or to the police?

Insulting is not a crime. Insulting is not a matter of faith or morals. I’d probably just ignore it.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Insulting is not a crime. Insulting is not a matter of faith or morals. I’d probably just ignore it.

jesus was referring to sin, my friend. so you are still gonna ignore it? perfect! that all the more proves what i said before, that this verse holds no meaning to catholics.

Matthew 18 is pretty obsolete.

 

[Lampo]

jesus was referring to sin, my friend. so you are still gonna ignore it? perfect! that all the more proves what i said before, that this verse holds no meaning to catholics.

Matthew 18 is pretty obsolete.

You’re jumping to conclusions because I misunderstood your question. Now that I understand, I know that I’ve already answered it. Maybe you didn’t see it. Here it is:

He is sinning against me by teaching my children false doctrine. Goes against the first Commandment:

"“The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say ‘God’ we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: ‘I am the LORD.’”

The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

 

[Ginger2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger2 View Post
Ok, first you have to establish which church teaches what is true.

Posted by Lampo
Done.

Then why did you say you would get circumcised if the Jews had the “truth”?

What is your point?

You said you are Catholic. You believe your theology is correct. So, the way for someone to convince you that you are in error, would be to take you to a source you trust and whose authority you respect. (ie the RC)

Same stands true for Baptists. If you want them to believe they are in error for interfering with your right to raise your own children Catholic. Take them to a Baptist preacher they believe preaches truth according to Scripture and whose authority they respect.

If you want anything prosperous to come out of your original question, you need to set the criteria and stick to it. You can’t expect to have a fruitful conversation if you change the criteria to state: a devote Catholic would consider that a Jew, practicing the traditional Hebrew faith, may have the truth about Jesus Christ so the Catholic would respect the Jew’s authority and take his advice about how one is saved.

 

[mozart-250]

What Church do we take it to? A Southern Baptist church? A Lutheran church? An Episcopal church? Methodist church, etc., etc., etc…? Don’t we take it to the Church Jesus Christ established where Doctrines matter and do not conflict with other doctrines? Here is a scenario I’ve seen before and couldn’t be answered. Maybe someone can help me with this:

It would be very helpful in discussing this passage to keep the issues separate and not muddy the waters.

The primary issue here is what implications does this scripture have concerning what Jesus had in mind when He designed the church.

I’ve wondered myself how this Scripture applies with inter-denominational disputes. I myself am curious how those who dogmatically say that Jesus did not design a centralized church handle this passage. The fact is that given the hypothetical Mr. Lampo provides, it does not seem to work very well if at all. Sheesh, Matthew 18 does not seem to work very well in any inter-denominational disputes from what I see (of course I have rarely seen it work in an intra-denominational setting but that too is a separate issue).

If you believe this passage supports the idea of a centralized church, it is a totally separate issue whether one denomination (let alone which one) even is that centralized church you believe this passage supports.

In any case, whether infant baptism is or is not Scriptural is not the issue. Whether the Catholic denomination practices Matthew 18 internally is not the issue. Whether the Catholic denomination is the “one true church” is really not the issue (at a minimum you are putting the cart before the horse here). The point is that Christian A from denomination B that believes doctrine C believes that Christian X from denomination Y that does not believe doctrine C believes that Christian X is sinning against him by teaching that doctrine C is false to his children. How is this dilemma resolved?

Interesting hypothetical. Carry on.

 

[AgnosTheist]

You’re jumping to conclusions because I misunderstood your question. Now that I understand, I know that I’ve already answered it. Maybe you didn’t see it. Here it is:

no you didnt. if a catholic wont stop sinning against you, what are you supposed to do?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Sheesh, Matthew 18 does not seem to work very well in any inter-denominational disputes from what I see (of course I have rarely seen it work in an intra-denominational setting but that is a separate issue).

BINGO!

 

[Lampo]

Ok, first you have to establish which church teaches what is true.

Posted by Lampo
Done.

Then why did you say you would get circumcised if the Jews had the “truth”?

What is your point?

My point is that I want to be in full communion with the Church that has the fullness of truth. That is why I’m Catholic. Nothing has convinced me otherwise.

You said you are Catholic. You believe your theology is correct. So, the way for someone to convince you that you are in error, would be to take you to a source you trust and whose authority you respect. (ie the RC)

Correct. But just like you, I could have rejected this truth. I am able to see by the grace of God that the Catholic Church can back up everything She claims!

Same stands true for Baptists. If you want them to believe they are in error for interfering with your right to raise your own children Catholic. Take them to a Baptist preacher they believe preaches truth according to Scripture and whose authority they respect.

I can see where that would be persuasive for them. They can also come to their own understanding when presented with the truth. All they need to do is investigate what the Catholic Church claims. More in-depth investigation is required for some folks than others.

If you want anything prosperous to come out of your original question, you need to set the criteria and stick to it. You can’t expect to have a fruitful conversation if you change the criteria to state: a devote Catholic would consider that a Jew, practicing the traditional Hebrew faith, may have the truth about Jesus Christ so the Catholic would respect the Jew’s authority and take his advice about how one is saved.

All I said was that I would adhere to the truth. If I thought the Jewish Faith had the fullness of truth, I’d be Jewish.

 

[Lampo]

In any case, whether infant baptism is or is not Scriptural is not the issue. Whether the Catholic denomination practices Matthew 18 internally is not the issue. Whether the Catholic denomination is the “one true church” is really not the issue (at a minimum you are putting the cart before the horse here). The point is that Christian A from denomination B that believes doctrine C believes that Christian X from denomination Y that does not believe doctrine C believes that Christian X is sinning against him by teaching that doctrine C is false to his children. How is this dilemma resolved?

Interesting hypothetical. Carry on.

Thank you for tidying this up a bit.

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger2:

Do you really want to “hear God’s will” for your life?

AgnosTheist:

of course i do! i wanna know exactly what god wants for us, for me. i’m all ears.

May I have permission to speak with you privately so as to avoid derailing this thread?

 

[Lampo]

no you didnt. if a catholic wont stop sinning against you, what are you supposed to do?

We do as Matt. 18:15-17 says. What did you think I would say?