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jmcrae
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Not if he’s not Catholic, there isn’t.
There are some who misinterpret Jesus’ commandment against divorce so as to include a loophole which they call a “biblical divorce” where they can claim that their spouse was unfaithful to them prior to the marriage, and divorce them on those grounds (often without proof) while still remaining in good standing with their church.
I used to correspond with a woman who had had five “biblical divorces,” was on to her sixth marriage, and couldn’t figure out why her children weren’t doing very well in school, since she had never (in her own opinion) gone against the will of God in her whole life.
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thecoach
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Oh, so you are then admitting it is symbolic only?
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ChristianKnight
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I get that, but um, how would this work in a Catholic Church lol?It is the remission of the temporal consequences of sin. A brilliant analogy I read yesterday on this site - apologies to the original author for forgetting his/her name -
I break your Mom’s favourite vase.
I beg your forgiveness.
You forgive me (eternal consequence is covered), but you want a new vase for your Mom (temporal consequence is not covered).
I can’t afford a new vase for your Mom. (I need an Indulgence.)
I have a friend named Jesus who has a vase exactly like the one I broke, of your Mom’s. He will give it to me in exchange for a small favour that is easy for me to do. (I receive an Indulgence.)
I give you the new vase for your Mom, and we are now friends again.
Where the vase is one of the Commandments of God, where you are God the Father, and where the small favour I do for Jesus is to say one of the prayers or do one of the spiritual deeds that are listed in the Handbook of Indulgences.
Does that help at all, or have I confused the issue?
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whatevergirl
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why thank you.:tiphat:
I truly believe with all of my heart that what Jesus would want the most, is for everyone He died for (all of us!) to be kind, and loving to each other–and for His ‘community’ of followers to worship together. My husband has often wondered …“what would Jesus say if He was here today to see how many splinters of the faith there has become?” I think we can only speculate, as Jesus loves us all, but it’s worth thinking about, that I imagine He would have wanted us to not go here, there and everywhere (or anywhere) to worship, but to follow a ‘blueprint’ of sorts. I think as a loving God, He gave us Himself, as much in His own life, as in His own death–to teach us the Right Path.
I think only a God who wouldn’t care about His children, would not have left some idea…some blueprint, if you will, for us to follow. He didn’t spell out how things were to go, but He gave a lot of responsibility in that arena to Peter. Only to Peter. I don’t think any of us can (or should) dispute that, right? We all through God’s grace, are empowered to have a relationship with Him, but we should be wary to mistake or blur history, to mean that Jesus was speaking to a collective ‘Peter,’ when He gave him the keys to the kingdom. No, He wanted someone to take the helm, so to speak. Someone to continue what He had begun. He didn’t want us all to take the helm. Not everyone to take it upon him/herself to do ‘whatever,’ but gave that responsibility of building His Church, to Peter.
But, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. It troubles me when we start drawing lines in the sand between ourselves.
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thecoach
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Catholic dont have annulments? Have you ever spoken with your Tribunal in your Diocese?Not if he’s not Catholic, there isn’t.
There are some who misinterpret Jesus’ commandment against divorce so as to include a loophole which they call a “biblical divorce” where they can claim that their spouse was unfaithful to them prior to the marriage, and divorce them on those grounds (often without proof) while still remaining in good standing with their church.
I used to correspond with a woman who had had five “biblical divorces,” was on to her sixth marriage, and couldn’t figure out why her children weren’t doing very well in school, since she had never (in her own opinion) gone against the will of God in her whole life.
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Peter_J
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Yes, the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross is perpetuated though the sacrifice of the mass.
I wouldn’t describe it as needing to be perpetuated. It simply is perpetuated (though the sacrifice of the mass).
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thecoach
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But why would a once for all sacrifice be perpetuated. That is going in opposition to what God’s Word says in Hebrews. I am not trying to be difficult, I just cant reconcile the two.
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ChristianKnight
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Well, I figured out about the indulgence from a catholic friend of mine. I think thats crazy, even if its in scripture. Pay the way to heaven lol
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whatevergirl
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I think your friend has given you the wrong ‘definition’ of an indulgence…Catholics or anyone, cannot pay our ways into heaven.
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Tietjen
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Are you actually attempting to say that God is incapable of being outside of time by suggesting that the Bible won’t allow God to be so?! Come on this whole thread is getting silly. Do you have a degree in theology or are you one of those “self-proclaimed” revs that think they have all the answers? This is 101 stuff.
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jmcrae
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Good point. You can sin your little brains out as long as you live (because you’re saved from your future sins as well as your past sins, apparently) - as long as you never drink alcohol, dance, attend movies, go to plays, listen to recorded music, go to concerts, watch television (including sports, which are considered to be the worship of Baal), participate in a political rally (except for pro-life, of course), eat sugary foods, have any kind of art on your walls or in your home, celebrate Christmas, Easter, or birthdays, or associate with anyone who does the same - for these, you will be disfellowshipped. (Anything else is “pre-forgiven,” though - debauch yourself to your heart’s content, and know that you are justified in the eyes of the Lord.)Are you ready for those wild, screaming, three- or four-hour-long Fundie services? Those look nerve-racking on TV, to the max. I wouldn’t survive a month in such a setting on Sundays. Also, be aware of Fundie ministers who might try to replace the legalisms of Catholicism, which you didin’t like, with just as many and equally intense legalisms of the Bible. Good luck.
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ChristianKnight
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If a pope once said its alright to do indulgence, then it be wrong, isn’t that showing he isn’t infallible?
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thecoach
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If its 101 stuff, how then cant you follow the term once for all? You,. AS USUAL, either misunderstand or just want to be difficult. And this stalking thing is really starting to creep me out. What, you look me up by name and run down the list of my posts? Now, I wonder what purpose that would have…hmmmm
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jmcrae
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The opposite - it’s Protestants who can’t get annulments, unless they are in the process of converting to the Catholic Church.
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KephasAugustine
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No, it **is **once and for all. Once. Perpetuated doesn’t mean redo, or again. It means it is once continual sacrifice. One. For all.
Get it yet?
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thecoach
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Now thats not a fair statement. You can just as easily use that notion against Catholic.“well, you can go sin your brains out…there’s always confession”.
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thecoach
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Im afraid I dont…thanks for your patience though.
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onetimeposter
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In fairness, many in the clergy just prior to the reformation took payment from the laity in return for indulgences.
Sure, the Church didn’t officially approve…but just because it wasn’t dogma…doesn’t mean they didn’t approve.
It’s like a bunch of corrupt street cops who are on the take, the official position of the police department is that they cant take bribes.
Now the police chief and all the officers are aware that the street cops are on the take and they don’t do anything about it…in fact, some people suggest that some of street cops are giving some money to the police headquarters for a giant renovation.
Now, once all the cops are caught by the FBI, they are disciplined and the Chief and all the officers claim that it was never the official policy of the police department to take bribes…so they can’t be held responsible or faulted.
So, although members of the police department were corrupt, the instititution of the police department is as pure as fresh fallen snow.
In reality, the entire police force is as corrupt as can be…i fail to see the difference between the people who make up an organization and the organization itself.
I think that this is a very good analogy in response to people who maintain that the Church never approved of the sale of indulgences…just that individuals took it upon themselves to sell them…and not only was a blind eye turned, but there is compelling evidence that money was funneled to pay for St Peters Basilica…all from the sale of indulgences.
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whatevergirl
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even confession to God, in our prayers, would be meaningless though, if we are not contrite, right? So…going with that, some people who are non Catholics, think that we Catholics, just fall back on Confession as a crutch, but I tell you–without a contrite heart, don’t bother going to Confession–just stay home. It’s in our humility, and contriteness where God forgives, not in the act of the Sacrament, but in our repentance from the Sacrament. Hope that helps.
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