I've officially left the Church

[1holycatholic]

Kinda like the Hotel California. When I became a Mason they tried to tell me the same thing. Once a Mason, always a Mason. Maybe they think so but it ain’t true because I control what organizations I belong to not the other way around. And no magic happens when one becomes Catholic.

An ontological change is not magic.

 

[reteeks21]

No. First of all, there have only been a relative handfull of ex cathedra statements made. IN the nearly 2000 year history of the Church, there have been between 3 and a few thousand, depending on how you count them (not important). Next, if the Church limited any positions to saints, we would have vanished years ago from lack of leadership. If we were limited to only those who never sinned, the Church ended with Christ ascending into heaven.

Think about it like the president of the USA. Even if he is impeached, laws that he signed stay in effect. What we beleive, and it is based on scripture, is that either the Holy Spirit leads him to speak or the Holy Spirit keeps his mouth shut.

So they don’t throw them out? Am I understanding this right? I understand the President analogy, so in that context why would the rcc not overturn (I guess that’s a sufficient word) any statements or proclomations he makes, especially if does not line up with scripture?

This is where protestants, I think, in some ways, get it right. If we have a minister who says something outlandish from the pulpit, we (the smart ones) aren’t afraid to study for ourselves and them call them on it. Could a priest not do the same thing as a minister like I mentioned above? Example: Michael Pfegler in Chicago.

 

[ralphinal]

So they don’t throw them out? Am I understanding this right? I understand the President analogy, so in that context why would the rcc not overturn (I guess that’s a sufficient word) any statements or proclomations he makes, especially if does not line up with scripture?

This is where protestants, I think, in some ways, get it right. If we have a minister who says something outlandish from the pulpit, we (the smart ones) aren’t afraid to study for ourselves and them call them on it. Could a priest not do the same thing as a minister like I mentioned above? Example: Michael Pfegler in Chicago.

The catch is that it has not ever happened. No pope has ever taught error or changed dogma. Many people have CLAIMED that it has occured, but no one has ever shown one pope teaching error and saying that this is now correct.

Take Martin Luther. What he claimed to be error taught by the pope either were not taught by the pope or were not errors. The things just didn’t sit well in Dr. Luther’s o.c.d. veiw of the world.

If a priest teaches in error, parishoniers can call him on it. If a bishop does it, those under him can as well. But no pope has ever proclaimed vice as virtue or has taught anything in error. It does not mean that they are always right. They just cannot be wrong in a limited set of criteria.

DO not lose sight of the fact that there have only been a handfull of such pronouncements. Even less if you do not count cannonizations of saints.

 

[Namesake]

An ontological change is not magic.

Exactly. And that change can be rejected. It doesn’t do something like magic that forever changes a person. People really do have control over those things and can toss that change out the window and it’s gone.

 

[1holycatholic]

Exactly. And that change can be rejected. It doesn’t do something like magic that forever changes a person. People really do have control over those things and can toss that change out the window and it’s gone.

An ontological change is permanent.

 

[reteeks21]

The catch is that it has not ever happened. No pope has ever taught error or changed dogma. Many people have CLAIMED that it has occured, but no one has ever shown one pope teaching error and saying that this is now correct.

Take Martin Luther. What he claimed to be error taught by the pope either were not taught by the pope or were not errors. The things just didn’t sit well in Dr. Luther’s o.c.d. veiw of the world.

If a priest teaches in error, parishoniers can call him on it. If a bishop does it, those under him can as well. But no pope has ever proclaimed vice as virtue or has taught anything in error. It does not mean that they are always right. They just cannot be wrong in a limited set of criteria.

DO not lose sight of the fact that there have only been a handfull of such pronouncements. Even less if you do not count cannonizations of saints.

I understand now. While I may not necessarily agree with you I do understand you now. Thanks.

Also, not trying to be rude, but I made sure not to be rude to you throughout our educational chat, and I appreciate it. And just as I did not even though I may disagree with you, was it necessary to take that shot at Luther? Maybe we (you, me, everyone!) can avoid that in the future so folk don’t flip out on one another. Again, thanks for teaching me something new. Have a great night.

 

[ralphinal]

I understand now. While I may not necessarily agree with you I do understand you now. Thanks.

Also, not trying to be rude, but I made sure not to be rude to you throughout our educational chat, and I appreciate it. And just as I did not even though I may disagree with you, was it necessary to take that shot at Luther? Maybe we (you, me, everyone!) can avoid that in the future so folk don’t flip out on one another. Again, thanks for teaching me something new. Have a great night.

Sorry if I offended anyone with that. It was not my intent. I knew when I wrote it that it may be offensive, but it seemed correct to put into place due to the discussion. When one views Luther’s life, one sees a form of O.C.D. known as scrupulocity. It shaped his theology and his break from the Church. The ironic thing about it is many saints have suffered from this. It is one thing that forces them to stay good. If we do not take into account the state of mind of people, we may lose sight of the reality of thier actions. Note that I am not calling him crazy, which I do not think he was, or any of the other attacks on his person that some Catholics use. He just felt that at no time could man be good on his own. He felt that no man’s works mattered. That is reality.

I am glad that I could help.

 

[Namesake]

An ontological change is permanent.

Only if it’s magic.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Kinda like the Hotel California. When I became a Mason they tried to tell me the same thing. Once a Mason, always a Mason. Maybe they think so but it ain’t true because I control what organizations I belong to not the other way around. And no magic happens when one becomes Catholic.

This is where you misunderstand the whole picture about what Jesus instituted in his Sacaraments. The Magesterium, or no man for that matter can seperate what God has joined together. This is an act of God when the Sacraments are administered, not by mans will but by the will of God working through his church to save man. Once you have been given the seal of God, not even the angels can harm you, except your own will.

The difference here is that every other institution like Masons are man made and are subject to change. The Catholic church is fully divine and fully human, and she is not subject to change. So if you are in the body of Jesus Christ, just like Lucifer who was an angel, but now is fallen, but he is still a created spirit from God.

 

[1holycatholic]

Only if it’s magic.

An ontological change is permanent and is not magic.

 

[Namesake]

An ontological change is permanent and is not magic.

And see, that’s why I can’t be a Catholic. I really do see that as magic and you see it as something else. Same with transubstantiation. I see that as magic and Catholics see it as something else but not magic.

And the argument that I just don’t understand is wasted on me because I understand but just differently than you, and I am just as intelligent and all most certainly better educated and I can understand as well as you can. But I don’t buy all the stuff that looks like magic.

 

[1holycatholic]

And see, that’s why I can’t be a Catholic. I really do see that as magic and you see it as something else. Same with transubstantiation. I see that as magic and Catholics see it as something else but not magic.

And the argument that I just don’t understand is wasted on me because I understand but just differently than you, and I am just as intelligent and all most certainly better educated and I can understand as well as you can. But I don’t buy all the stuff that looks like magic.

It helps to spell correctly when boasting about how well educated you are.

Why are you here?

 

[RC_Matt]

and I stated that I am willing to look at how Catholocism views it…

I do not know, just because I am a Protestant doesn’t mean I made the thousands of denominations, even though you might think I should.

Dude, you’re doing just fine; you have an open and questioning mind and that’s admirable – it’s also a gift. Keep asking your questions, that’s how you learn. There are some very knowledgeable people in here who will always be willing to provide you with answers and explanations. The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and there’s a lot you can explore; one’s relationship with Christ can be profoundly deep. I think you’ll also find that Catholic theology regarding salvation is in harmony with common sense; the common sense given to us by a loving God.

Some of the reasons I am not a Catholic right now is:

1. Lack of decent respect to others (not all of you, but some just seem to out-right hate or dis-respect Protestants, yes this is true, I am not lying, and you know, some Protestants are probably the same way, but that doesn’t justify it)

As in any community, and this is certainly no exception, there are some people with whom you will better relate than others. If someone rubs you the wrong way, just ignore it; sometimes you just have to separate the wheat from the chaff around here. Kinda like life.

1. My lack of knowledge (I will not join something if I do not know as much about it as I can before hand)

LOL, and they won’t LET you either…. To become a Catholic, you have to attend a class in your local parish one night a week for a few months; you need to learn everything the Church teaches BEFORE you can become a Catholic. You can quit anytime you want with no questions asked and nobody will pressure you to become a Catholic either; that’s a decision only you can make after prayer, study and reflection. The class is called RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) and it is taken by non-Catholics who just want to learn about the Catholic Church, non-Catholics who are interested in becoming Catholics and Catholics who want a “refresher.”

LOL, I somehow doubt your folks would go with that one, but that’s the program anyway.

One of my roommates in college was a Baptist, he used to (good naturedly) give me a hard time for being Catholic. One Sunday, out of curiosity, he tagged along with me to Mass. Something touched him, because pretty soon he was waking ME up on Sunday mornings so we could get to Mass on time. He ultimately became Catholic himself and it had a very positive impact on his life (and that’s an understatement).

Just take your time, keep your mind open, keep asking questions, reading and praying. You may never become Catholic, and that’s totally cool, but at least you will understand what the majority of the world’s Christians believe and why they believe it.

Peace,
Matt

 

[Namesake]

It helps to spell correctly when boasting about how well educated you are.

Why are you here?

I first came here because I was thinking about converting to Catholicism. As I continued to read and get involved in discussions I became convinced that I wasn’t Catholic material at all. And now I am here because I think Catholics are very interesting and it’s fascinating to see what Catholics will do to protect their faith and how far they will go to try to destroy other people’s faith.

But I suppose I should not log on here and post anymore because I sincerely believe that Catholicism is not something I could ever be a part of. I just don’t believe what you all believe and I never have and never will regardless of the skill of apologists.

So I am here because I wanted to become a Catholic and now I can’t be a Catholic and I suppose I should not be here.

 

[Namesake]

It helps to spell correctly when boasting about how well educated you are.

OK, and I usually do better, but you know the saying. Small minds concern themselves with small things.

And it’s not a boast at all. It’s just a fact that I am better educated than 95% of the population. I just went to college for a very long time and that’s what happens.

More like 97%

 

[ralphinal]

I first came here because I was thinking about converting to Catholicism. As I continued to read and get involved in discussions I became convinced that I wasn’t Catholic material at all. And now I am here because I think Catholics are very interesting and it’s fascinating to see what Catholics will do to protect their faith and how far they will go to try to destroy other people’s faith.

But I suppose I should not log on here and post anymore because I sincerely believe that Catholicism is not something I could ever be a part of. I just don’t believe what you all believe and I never have and never will regardless of the skill of apologists.

So I am here because I wanted to become a Catholic and now I can’t be a Catholic and I suppose I should not be here.

No. You should still be here as long as you are learning. Just because you have no desire to be Catholic, it does not mean that we no longer want you here.

 

[panoikei]

Fair question…

My ego I suppose.

In fairness to me, I did not expect this strong reaction. I was simply sharing my decision with others. I thought that this thread was filled with non-Catholics… I guess not.

I’m under the understanding that this is a Catholic website filled with tons of Catholics. The non-Catholic forum is supposed to be for folks to come an learn about the faith…not procelytize. There is a breach of permission I think. Sometimes I get my favorite forum mixed up with this one. Arguements like this are taken…forced to the apologetics thread. People are requred to introduce themselves and state their views…"I am a fallen away Catholic that is dedicated to “bringing catholics to the truth”…you know…like thecaoch. I get the feeling that he is guilty of planting a lot of doubt in people’s minds about their Catholic faith. He misuses what he thought he learned in a “high school” seminary…if that was him. I went to a Catholic college seminary and can tell you he’s full of B.S. I really don’t care if he thinks I’m being charitable. Many fist fights broke out by some very holy men…Saints now in previous years at Councils. Not that I classify myself with them. But heresy is heresy. I just refrain from calling them heretics… I was a heretic once and discovered that I was indeed wrong. The difference is that I always sought the truth and my perserverance paid off so far. The Army had made me a bit rough around the edges and rightfully so. My physical injuries are numerous from that life. I don’t take people’s attacks lightly yet. I’m working on it. Even though I may come across rude of obnoxious, tell me Catholics am I wrong in what I say? I’m open to hear what you think.

But thecoach is completely discredited now that I know his true agenda here. He needs to be kicked off the forum for what he is up to. That is just my opinion. If I were the moderator, I would give him the boot along with several others that do the same. There is one thing to debate and another to proselytize. Proselytizing comes with stealth…unmining others faith - the weak.

 

[Church_Militant]

And see, that’s why I can’t be a Catholic. I really do see that as magic and you see it as something else. Same with transubstantiation. I see that as magic and Catholics see it as something else but not magic.

And the argument that I just don’t understand is wasted on me because I understand but just differently than you, and I am just as intelligent and all most certainly better educated and I can understand as well as you can. But I don’t buy all the stuff that looks like magic.

Just because you don’t understand something does that make it unbelievable?

Do you accept that God is a trinity? Do you understand that? I certainly do not. Yet I believe it based on what Our Lord and the apostles taught.

Now, let’s consider something else that is set out far more plainly in the New Testament. Yep…you guessed it. The Eucharist. Read that and tell me what part of it it unbelievable when both Jesus and St. Paul make it very plain.

 

[GOP]

So, I just, in great detail, explained to my wife why I no longer consider myself a RC and why I have left the Church. She totally understood and supports my decision.

I feel great, like the chains of bondage have been removed. The RCC is a fine institution and if some people can find God within that particular Church, then it is a very good thing.

The Church was holding me back, for years, this is an exciting time. I no longer have the distraction of the all the Catholic requirements that are necessary for any hope of my salvation. Those distractions also prevented me from forming any relationship with God.

When someone asks, ’ are you a Catholic’, I will respond, nope I am a Christian!

Awesome!

So you’ve repented and trust Jesus alone for your salvation?

 

[Church_Militant]

Awesome!

So you’ve repented and trust Jesus alone for your salvation?

Duh… Catholics have always done that. Maybe you should actually read and study Catholic teaching.