I've officially left the Church

[jmcrae]

Will there be only Catholics in heaven?

Yes. Those who did not die Catholic will have become Catholic in Purgatory. (In fact, when I was going through it, I thought that the conversion process was probably a preview of Purgatory, because it is extremely painful, yet purifying.)

 

[jmcrae]

CATHOLICISM AND PAGANISM

 Today, Sunday, I attended a special mass for Italian-Americans. The mass was fine, though all in Italian - but that was okay. What did disturb me was the way a statue of Mary holding the Baby Jesus was carried along the street with some people actually attaching money to her as she went from one street to the next.

You’re about three weeks early for this one.

Where did you copy it from?

By the way, the Feast they will be celebrating in three weeks’ time is called the “Assumption of Mary”. It takes place on the Sunday nearest to August 15th every year. The statue reminds us that Mary was assumed into Heaven by her Son, Jesus, in her body and soul. This is a preview of the Resurrection of the Dead, which will occur at the Second Coming of Christ. We see it referred to in Revelation 11 and 12 - the Woman is Mary, and the Son to whom she gives birth is Jesus. The dragon was King Herod, and the wilderness was the wilderness of Egypt, where Joseph hid Mary and Jesus until after the death of King Herod.

The money they throw goes to the poor who come every day to the Church doors seeking help from the Catholic Church. They know that the Catholic Church will help them - they have confidence whenever they see the Crucifix, that the person behind it will help them in their time of need. They have this confidence because of the generosity of these people who throw the money - they aren’t just throwing their money away; they are actually using the statue as a holder for the money that is meant for the poor - and in this way, the money will always be there to help them.

I understand this is a tradition in the ‘old country’ but it doesn’t fit here. It struck me as so pagan, more reminiscent of Greek or Roman or Egyptian mythology than Biblical Christianity.

I actually don’t recall any teachings in those other religions about helping the poor.

Today there are millions of highly-educated Catholics in America. They think for themselves. They would like to remain Catholic for cultural and family reasons, as many do, but many others simply can’t stay in a church which teaches doctrines and holds on to traditions that they can no longer accept.

This is true. In a materialistic “me first” society, the very thought of giving money to help the poor is considered far too old fashioned. The poor should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps just like everyone else. If they are working two jobs, they should take a third job, instead of bugging the people of the Church. If they are ill, they should just get over it and make themselves well by the power of positive thinking, instead of seeking out assistance from their fellow Christians at Church. Religion, and helping the poor, is just far too old-fashioned for modern society. Anything where helping the poor is part of the program needs to be gotten rid of, so that the rich can be happy and guilt-free in their mansions of gold.

 

[elts1956]

Yes. Those who did not die Catholic will have become Catholic in Purgatory. (In fact, when I was going through it, I thought that the conversion process was probably a preview of Purgatory, because it is extremely painful, yet purifying.)

Okay jmcrae, where did this take on Purgatory come from?

 

[jmcrae]

Okay jmcrae, where did this take on Purgatory come from?

Which part? I learned that everyone becomes Catholic before they go to Heaven from an old Italian man who went to daily Mass every day of his life from the time he was born. He is the greatest teacher I ever had - he taught me from the Baltimore Catechism and told me everything that the nuns had ever taught him when he was in school. His name was Mr. Liotta.

The other part, I was just recounting my personal experience.

 

[elts1956]

Which part? I learned that everyone becomes Catholic before they go to Heaven from an old Italian man who went to daily Mass every day of his life from the time he was born. He is the greatest teacher I ever had - he taught me from the Baltimore Catechism and told me everything that the nuns had ever taught him when he was in school. His name was Mr. Liotta.

The other part, I was just recounting my personal experience.

I have never heard that everyone becomes Catholic after a trip to Purgatory. I wish it coul be so.

 

[jmcrae]

I have never heard that everyone becomes Catholic after a trip to Purgatory. I wish it could be so.

Only if they are baptized (at least by desire) and without mortal sin at the moment of death. So, it’s purely hypothetical - but theoretically possible.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Yes. Those who did not die Catholic will have become Catholic in Purgatory. (In fact, when I was going through it, I thought that the conversion process was probably a preview of Purgatory, because it is extremely painful, yet purifying.)

I think a better way to say this–a way that would avoid confusion, bigotry, and any arrogant, snide, harsh remarks–would be to say that in Purgatory, everybody learns the TRUTH. Everybody is converted to the Truth–whatever that may be.

 

[elts1956]

Only if they are baptized (at least by desire) and without mortal sin at the moment of death. So, it’s purely hypothetical - but theoretically possible.

Yes, I remember the Baptism of Desire. Thanks.

 

[BartBurk]

I joined the Catholic Church a bit over two years ago after 30+ years as a Mormon. I joined the Mormon Church at 19, stopped believing in it in my mid-30s and became a Catholic when I was 52 after attending Protestant churches for years. My wife and children are still Mormon so I know that our religious journeys are fraught with difficulties! I agree that some of the requirements in Catholicism can be difficult. It’s a constant struggle to live the Christian life. At any rate, good luck in your particular journey. I find there is safe harbor in the Catholic Church for me simply because I don’t find I can trust the Protestant churches on issues like abortion, homosexuality and birth control. And I surely wouldn’t want to give up the Holy Eucharist and settle for bread and water like I did when I was a Mormon! If people ask me what religion I am, I’m happy to say I’m a Catholic Christian. I wouldn’t want to miss out on what the Catholic Church gives me.

 

[elts1956]

I joined the Catholic Church a bit over two years ago after 30+ years as a Mormon. I joined the Mormon Church at 19, stopped believing in it in my mid-30s and became a Catholic when I was 52 after attending Protestant churches for years. My wife and children are still Mormon so I know that our religious journeys are fraught with difficulties! I agree that some of the requirements in Catholicism can be difficult. It’s a constant struggle to live the Christian life. At any rate, good luck in your particular journey. I find there is safe harbor in the Catholic Church for me simply because I don’t find I can trust the Protestant churches on issues like abortion, homosexuality and birth control. And I surely wouldn’t want to give up the Holy Eucharist and settle for bread and water like I did when I was a Mormon! If people ask me what religion I am, I’m happy to say I’m a Catholic Christian. I wouldn’t want to miss out on what the Catholic Church gives me.

So happy for you. Congratulations a thousand times over. I too am married to a non Catholic and things can get pretty iffy around here at times.

 

[benedictus2]

That is why I’ve left…I’m being honest with myself. I know that there are a lot of Catholics who just go through the motions and show up twice a year…but that’s not me.

I actually want a relationship with Christ…

Pity. The only full relationship you can have with Christ is within his familty here on earth, the Catholic Church.

 

[1holycatholic]

Yes they are and by Catholics. Maybe you meant to say that statues ought not be referred to that way?

Roy5 was referring to a statue as “her” and “she”. His profile says Protestant. I don’t think I would go so far as you have by labeling Protestants as Pagans.

 

[1holycatholic]

I think a better way to say this–a way that would avoid confusion, bigotry, and any arrogant, snide, harsh remarks–would be to say that in Purgatory, everybody learns the TRUTH. Everybody is converted to the Truth–whatever that may be.

1 Tim 3:15:

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Christ established only one Church, the Catholic Church - the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[GailMac]

I am truely amazed at the length of this thread in so short a time! Some have reacted to the OP with anger and angst and some have reacted with love and kindness, while some have used this as a platform for Church and Catholic bashing. What I’m most in awe of is the testimonies of those who left and came back, tail between legs so to speak and those whose witness of conversion speaks for itself.

So, all in all, I guess Onetime’s “annoucement” has brought fruit. I sad way to get folks sharing, but true. Perhaps this demonstrates a “need” for this sharing of other’s faith’s journeys here. Perhaps we can all start asking questions that would seem “risky” under other cicumstances. Honesty is an amazing thing - it clears the air and opens up possiblity where none was before.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. – Onetime - you will remain in my prayers.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Christ established only one Church, the Catholic Church - the pillar and foundation of truth.

We agree–I just don’t think the Catholic Church as we know it exists anywhere except in this world. The Catholic Church is on a pilgrim journey to the Promised Land, and once we get there there will be no need for Catholicism because we will be perfected in Christ.

 

[Church_Militant]

and I stated that I am willing to look at how Catholocism views it…

I do not know, just because I am a Protestant doesn’t mean I made the thousands of denominations, even though you might think I should.

Some of the reasons I am not a Catholic right now is:

1. Lack of decent respect to others (not all of you, but some just seem to out-right hate or dis-respect Protestants, yes this is true, I am not lying, and you know, some Protestants are probably the same way, but that doesn’t justify it)

You apparently have not visited a couple of the n-C/a-C forums that I have. I won’t link them here because it might cause a board swarm but if you are serious about seeing both sides of this issue, the PM me and I’ll pass them on to you. I don’t post on either one.

1. My lack of knowledge (I will not join something if I do not know as much about it as I can before hand)

Well, at least you are in a good place to get decent information about the Catholic faith. If I can be of any assistance, please feel free to PM or e-mail me through CAF and I’ll help any way that I can.

I myself am a “revert” to the faith with a long history outside of the church that may help you somewhat. Here’s My Testimony

 

[1holycatholic]

We agree–I just don’t think the Catholic Church as we know it exists anywhere except in this world. The Catholic Church is on a pilgrim journey to the Promised Land, and once we get there there will be no need for Catholicism because we will be perfected in Christ.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9.htm#p1[769](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182

 

[KephasAugustine]

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9.htm#p1[769](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182

Thanks for the info. I had forgotten that passage. I guess, being in a catechetical mindset, I wanted to drop the “labels” for a moment so I could better evangelize without people putting up walls at the mention of the word “Catholic.” I think we both agree completely, so further debate is unnecessary. Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever, by His Church in heaven and on earth.

God bless you always and in all ways.

 

[Roy5]

JMCRAE, BURK AND CHURCH MILITANT

 A couple of points in response;

 1. The parade yesterday was at a local Italian festival, not connected to August 15 as you seem to imply - and as you appear to raise doubts about the basis of my report. I am quite aware of the Feast of the Assumption, accentuated in my mind because that also is my mother's birthday.

  2. Mormons, of course, are not Protestants. They are about as Christian as Muslims are. They have additional scriptures, a very different perception of Christ, and also believe they are the one true faith - among other things. As people, Mormons are to be commended generally. They tend to live a healthy lifestyle and have a high ethical code (with the exception, perhaps, of polygamy, which they abandonned in 1890, and their extreme and official racism which they finally dropped sometime in the 1970s?).But they have to believe a whole lot of things totally unverified by history etc - and often contradicted by known facts.

  3. Some of us are quickly dismissed as rebels, egotists, anti-Catholics or protestant because we earnestly want to see Catholicism become more of an 'open tent' that permits a freer expression of opinion, allows wider debate of major issues, becomes an instrument for increased ecumenism, and displays more tolerance for other faiths, whether Christian or non-Christian.  If Catholicism is God's chosen vehicle of spiritual truth, why are some so fearful of this? Surely God will protect the Church.

 

[Tietjen]

I could refute all of your arguments that you believe prove that confession to an ordained priest is necessary to receive Gods forgiveness…

No you can’t but I’m up to that challenge. Be my guest and give it a shot. I’ll wait patiently.

And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,
namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

I was shocked to discover that the mighty RCC actually had this in their catechism as evidence that the ministry of reconciliation as we know it today, was given to them by Christ Jesus.

This passage is only talking about the spreading of the gospels and has absolutely nothing to do with reconciliation. Please read carefully my bolded parts, please notice that this is about the apostles spreading the MESSAGE of reconciliation…which is God has RECONCILED the world to himself through Christ. It finishes off with a plea, be RECONCILED to God.

You are correct. Please though, indulge me just a bit. How does one become reconciled to God? If I may… the primary means is by baptism and confession. Do you recall John the Baptist’s message? Okay… now in these verses we see that the Apostles are the ambassadors of this ministry. They are the ambassadors of what? Reconciling people to God. How do they do that? Baptism and CONFESSION. How do we know this? Because we find that throughout Scripture that God hates sin and it stands to reason that those who do not repent (Confess) from their sins probably have much less of a chance of entering a relationship with God. So, dear brother, while you are correct in that these passages speak of being reconciled to God; I would suggest that you dive deeper into what that exactly means. I would further say that without knowing it, you and the Catholic Church agree on this issue. At least as it relates to these specific verses.

The ministry of reconciliation, clearly, clearly even to a layman, is about spreading the good news and is not about auricular confession to an ordained priest.

From the Douay-Rheims:

16 Wherefore henceforth, we know no man according to the flesh. And if we have known Christ according to the flesh; but now we know him so no longer. 17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new. 18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

I beg to differ with you. While it’s understood that the apostles were commissioned to spread the good news, these verses smack of becoming a “new creature”, how through Christ’s sacrifice God can forgive our sins, and directly refers to “the ministry of reconciliation.” It goes on to say that the word of reconciliation was placed in the apostles thereby making them ambassadors of this ministry. It then continues and beseeches (begs) people to be reconciled to God. Again, how is that done… Confession.

When I saw the RCC prop this scripture up as justification…I couldn’t believe it…the problem is, as Catholics, you aren’t allowed to interpret scripture, even when it clearly states the opposite of what the Church teaches.

Okay, if what you say is actually true and not a lie, can you please tell everyone here how many verses from the scriptures that the Church has actually defined? If you cannot, then allow me to help you… it is less than 20. The Church does not take verses, stick them under a microscope, and declare them to mean {fill in the blank}. We (Catholics) do read the Bible and as readers we are to interrupt (understand) what we are reading. When we come to something that APPEARS to contradict the Church, we turn to Tradition and/or the Magisterium for guidence. Remember sir, the Bible was put together by the Catholic Church. It’s a Catholic document. There won’t be anything in there that contradicts the Church. The only editing performed on the Bible since it first came into existance was done by the protestant movement (over 1500+ years after with ONLY Catholic Bibles… can you imagine ). So, please reconsider the lie you’ve been told concerning the Church not allowing her people to interpret scripture. It is just that, a lie.