I've snapped

[PhilXavier]

Dear all,

I’ve been struggling to conform to the teachings of the church for many years and have mostly failed. I was thinking on this recently and I realised that the sins I struggle with most, I don’t actually agree that they are sinful in the first place. I mean if I choose to masturbate, who am I harming? If my wife and I choose to engage in non-procreative sex acts who are we harming? I realise that these practices are deemed sinful because they are entirely lustful. But I reject that argument. It is possible for a non-procreative sex acts to take place within the context of a loving relationship, just as much as sex that’s open to procreation can take place in an entirely lustful context. I imagine you might mention masturbation being entirely lustful. So what I don’t see why that’s wrong as long as no one is harmed.

I have lost friends and been called a bigot for blindly preaching the churches teaching on homosexuality and same sex marriage. Again I find myself questioning why I did this as they don’t appear to be harming anyone. Worse than that, I’ve felt like a hypocrite due to my own struggles with masturbation, and having non-procreative sex with my wife.

Suddenly it’s become clear to me, that the issue is not with me, it’s with the archaic backward thinking dogma that’s been rammed down my throat.

Henceforth I am going to continue all my supposedly sinful practices, only from now on I won’t feel guilty about it. When I choose to attend church, I will still receive the Eucharist without any guilt because I haven’t done anything wrong.

I encourage everyone else to do the same.

 

[Trident_H]

Well Phil, buddy, it’s one thing to snap. It’s one thing to take that branch you’re on and snap it off. It’s another to then decide to cut down the whole tree.

I want you to have patience with this. Because there’s a lot here that you’ve just said in one short post. So there’s a lot that needs to be said in return. But I’m hoping you’re still around to hear it. But tying fast’s not my thing. Well I’ll give it a shot.

Ok Phil, I hear what you’re saying about taking care of things yourself. I know the score. I’m on the level there. I know why you do it and I know why it seems pointless to stop. I’m not going to fight you on that. Not in this post anyway. There’s stuff I need to say about this, but I don’t think I’ll have the space or the time to do it. Before you leave.

And as far as using contraceptives go. Well that’s your choice. You’re in line with a majority now. You’re no longer one of the few. If that’s progress for you fine.

But just hang back a step before you encourage everyone else to join you. And stop just short of complaining about things that are archaic. Because sometimes wisdom lasts forever. Sometimes the archaic is the only thing keeping us from changing things every day. Sometimes the anchor that was designed and built a few thousand years ago is the same one we use today because it was perfected in the beginning.

So Phil I’ll PM you about the rest. There’s no point in having this in public. I think you’ve got a good heart here. You’ve tried your best. You’ve even stuck your neck into the arena of public opinion and fought for what you thought the Church wanted you to say. And now you feel hurt and regret about the consequences of that.

Well before you go all defiant about it. Just think. Just think about why you used to trust the Church. And I mean I know the SSM thing is a hard pull. I know it’s hard to not want to support being nice instead of being good. I know. I’m there with you. I mean I’m gay myself. I know what that’s like from both sides. Inside and out. So I mean I appreciate you wanting to back down on this fight. Thinking it’s for my sake. Or guys like me. But you’ve got to know that truth and goodness apply to me and mine too. We’ve got to pull up our own socks. We’ve got to do what’s hard if it’s the right thing to do. It’s not fair. It’s not easy. But then nothing in life really is. So I appreciate the thought. And I appreciate the willingness to change in order to ‘help’ me, but I don’t want that kind of help. I don’t want you to make my sins easier. To think that’s helping when it’s really doing the opposite.

What I do want from you is understanding. Your love and compassion will do just fine. Your willingness to lend a hand when I’m struggling. Your friendship and lack of acting judgmental. Just don’t confuse that with calling what I struggle with right. Or moral. Or just. Or good.

The rest I’ll PM you. No space for it here.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Della]

Dear all,

I’ve been struggling to conform to the teachings of the church for many years and have mostly failed. I was thinking on this recently and I realised that the sins I struggle with most, I don’t actually agree that they are sinful in the first place. I mean if I choose to masturbate, who am I harming?

Yourself and your relationship with your wife is who you are harning. Just ask her if she is pleased you still resort to self-satisfaction as if you weren’t a married man who pledged yourself to her and to her only. I’ll bet she’s not happy about it. As a woman and a wife I know what I’m talking about.

If my wife and I choose to engage in non-procreative sex acts who are we harming?

Where did you get the idea that the only purpose for having sex is procreating? It isn’t Church teachning, you know. Indeed, the Church doesn’t care how many children you have and people who are infertile may marry in the Church. I think you’ve gotten some bad information on this one from somewhere.

I realise that these practices are deemed sinful because they are entirely lustful. But I reject that argument. It is possible for a non-procreative sex acts to take place within the context of a loving relationship, just as much as sex that’s open to procreation can take place in an entirely lustful context. I imagine you might mention masturbation being entirely lustful. So what I don’t see why that’s wrong as long as no one is harmed.

It is not lustful to have sexual relations with your wife. Period. End of story. Wherever are you getting such ideas? Lust is destructive–it only thinks of itself. But love making isn’t so.

I have lost friends and been called a bigot for blindly preaching the churches teaching on homosexuality and same sex marriage. Again I find myself questioning why I did this as they don’t appear to be harming anyone.

It harms those who practice it. Don’t be fooled by all the media hype regarding homosexual sex and lifestyles. It’s not the equivolent of heterosexual sex or love. Not only can such faux sex not procreate it is not unitive but truly lustful. Love is not the basis for their actions but merely sexual need being fulfilled in the wrong way. True love is sacrificial not selfish.

Worse than that, I’ve felt like a hypocrite due to my own struggles with masturbation, and having non-procreative sex with my wife.

You struggle with masturbation because you are hooked on it. It’s become an addictiion. Like any addict it seems much easier to give in than to get help. Talk to your confessor about it. He’s a man–he’ll understand.

Suddenly it’s become clear to me, that the issue is not with me, it’s with the archaic backward thinking dogma that’s been rammed down my throat.

No, I’m afraid not. You say this because you have not gone into your faith in depth, but have had a surface faith that cannot do anything for you. Catholicism isn’t a set of dogmas to be believed, but a life to be lived–a faith to be practiced. Do you pray daily? Do you give all of yourself to God in everything? If not, you are not practicing the faith, you are riding on it like a man on a horse trying to be the horse. No. Be what God created you to be–a man in union with him who loves you.

Henceforth I am going to continue all my supposedly sinful practices, only from now on I won’t feel guilty about it. When I choose to attend church, I will still receive the Eucharist without any guilt because I haven’t done anything wrong.

I encourage everyone else to do the same.

The only sinful habits you need to give up is masturbation. Sex with your wife is perfectly fine and legitimate. You are overstating things based on misinformtion, misconceptions, and an unwillingness to face what is keeping you a slave to a bad habit. You have my prayers. Please pray for me, a fellow sinner.

 

[AKDee]

I guess it largely depends on whether you believe the Church is faithfully passing on the teachings of Christ.

If not, you get to do what you want, when you want, based on your own moral code. Guilt free.

But if that is the case, why would you go to Mass, and why would you receive the Eucharist? Either the Church is right, or it’s not.

While I can sympathize with the frustrations behind your post (truly, I do) I think we are called to accept that the Church is faithfully passing on Christ’s teachings to us and adhere to those teachings as best we can, and to confess when we falter.

The biggest problem I have with your post is that at the end you called on other people to follow your example. Read Sunday’s Gospel reading- it’s particularly apropos. The Gospel of Mark, Chapter 9, Verses 38-48.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

What do you mean by “blindly preaching”?

 

[Aim4TheMark]

What I found is that some of these ‘harmless’ sins caused a separation between me and God as I grew deeper in my spiritual life, and I had to eliminate these sins. In this sense, a sin is anything that takes me away from God.

But then again, some people have no desire to obtain a greater nearness to God and are only interested in religion due to conditioning or for sociological reasons. In that case, maybe the criteria for sin changes.

In the first case, both of the two greatest commandments apply:

“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength” and “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”

In the second case, only the second of the two greatest commandments apply.

So what’s your aim in religion?

 

[estesbob]

I am curious as to why you would encourage everyone else to do the same? I am also curious as to why you want to continue to receive the Eucharist? Since you have determined you cant trust the teachings if the Church why do you believe their teaching’s on the Eucharist are correct? In fact why would you trust any of their teachings?

 

[Lou2U]

Dear all,

I’ve been struggling to conform to the teachings of the church for many years and have mostly failed. I was thinking on this recently and I realised that the sins I struggle with most, I don’t actually agree that they are sinful in the first place. I mean if I choose to masturbate, who am I harming? If my wife and I choose to engage in non-procreative sex acts who are we harming? I realise that these practices are deemed sinful because they are entirely lustful. But I reject that argument. It is possible for a non-procreative sex acts to take place within the context of a loving relationship, just as much as sex that’s open to procreation can take place in an entirely lustful context. I imagine you might mention masturbation being entirely lustful. So what I don’t see why that’s wrong as long as no one is harmed.

I have lost friends and been called a bigot for blindly preaching the churches teaching on homosexuality and same sex marriage. Again I find myself questioning why I did this as they don’t appear to be harming anyone. Worse than that, I’ve felt like a hypocrite due to my own struggles with masturbation, and having non-procreative sex with my wife.

Suddenly it’s become clear to me, that the issue is not with me, it’s with the archaic backward thinking dogma that’s been rammed down my throat.

Henceforth I am going to continue all my supposedly sinful practices, only from now on I won’t feel guilty about it. **When I choose to attend church, I will still receive the Eucharist without any guilt because I haven’t done anything wrong.
**
I encourage everyone else to do the same.

The bolded section above is what I don’t understand. You’re struggling with the teachings of the Catholic Church, and you don’t agree with them, which is one thing. But you are not showing the Church any respect by ignoring what Catholics believe the Eucharist gives them, and you are not showing any respect to the members of the Church if you encourage them to abandon the teachings they believe in.

The Catholic Church is based on the idea of forgiveness and love. Catholics believe that when their sins are absolved in Confession, they can receive the Eucharist, which is literally the body and blood of Jesus. So, are you saying you no longer want to be a practising Catholic, as you no longer accept that Confession is necessary, or do you want to be a practising Catholic, but not show respect for the Church’s traditions, teachings, and members?

I am Agnostic, and if I ever went to a Catholic Church I would not receive the Eucharist out of respect. Can you not have respect for what the Church teaches?

Lou

 

[mikekle]

Dear all,

I’ve been struggling to conform to the teachings of the church for many years and have mostly failed. I was thinking on this recently and I realised that the sins I struggle with most, I don’t actually agree that they are sinful in the first place. I mean if I choose to masturbate, who am I harming? If my wife and I choose to engage in non-procreative sex acts who are we harming? I realise that these practices are deemed sinful because they are entirely lustful. But I reject that argument. It is possible for a non-procreative sex acts to take place within the context of a loving relationship, just as much as sex that’s open to procreation can take place in an entirely lustful context. I imagine you might mention masturbation being entirely lustful. So what I don’t see why that’s wrong as long as no one is harmed.

I have lost friends and been called a bigot for blindly preaching the churches teaching on homosexuality and same sex marriage. Again I find myself questioning why I did this as they don’t appear to be harming anyone. Worse than that, I’ve felt like a hypocrite due to my own struggles with masturbation, and having non-procreative sex with my wife.

Suddenly it’s become clear to me, that the issue is not with me, it’s with the archaic backward thinking dogma that’s been rammed down my throat.

Henceforth I am going to continue all my supposedly sinful practices, only from now on I won’t feel guilty about it. When I choose to attend church, I will still receive the Eucharist without any guilt because I haven’t done anything wrong.

I encourage everyone else to do the same.

So basically its cherry picking the laws you want to abide by and the ones you feel would be too tough?

Im in the same boat, but not with the same thing, Ive also noticed MANY MANY people in my parish and likely others have the same problem in the world today, the way many catholics are living today, its not too tough for them, they generally dont have any huge problems in their lives caused by their faith, if something does come up that is in question, they look to a certain interpretation that will justify it, or try to sugar coat it, happens all the time.

We are told to have NO PART in sinful things, but when we find out tax dollars go towards such evils, (even when the vatican itself instructs us not to), we are given verses like ‘Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and onto God what is Gods’…see what Im saying? Right then, we have a justification to continue on, contributing to evil, because what would be the alternative…not pay taxes, end up in jail, loose job, etc. basically a mans law problem, but in Gods eyes, you would still be golden…thats the problem, too many people are too concerned with mans laws when we should be worried more about Gods.

We are told that being a true believer will lead to many problems living in a secular world, but when there is not many problems, then its time to worry, something is wrong somewhere.

 

[dusk_wind]

So what I don’t see why that’s wrong as long as no one is harmed.

Someone is actually being harmed, because the time you are wasting in indulging yourself in masturbation is time taken away from doing good for another. That wasted time, for example, could have been better put to use by calling someone who is lonely, or by praying for someone, etc. Therefore, at it’s very best, masturbation is still a sin by way of omission.

Also, there is a mystical effect to our actions that affects the entire body of believers. 1 Corinthians 6:17 states that when we are “joined to the Lord” in salvation, we are “one spirit” with Him. Thus, even if you lived alone in a lead box and committed the sin of masturbation, your action would still have a ripple effect via the mystical realm on the rest of the church, which is actually the Body of Christ on Earth.

Furthermore, the sin of masturbation is affecting others by diminishing your capacity for love…as love is selflessness. When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and said, “Hail Mary full of grace”, he implied that to be full of one thing is to be devoid of another. Banishing lust from from your mind will clear the way for higher and more noble thoughts, leading to spiritual growth and transformation as you enjoy a closer relationship with God.

God bless.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

• Have you each got hobbies?
• Can you befriend or host a lonely person or a person with learning differences? (I have been just as delighed to visit a childless couple as a family with children.) This is one way for you to be “open to life”.

 

[808Catholic]

Dear all,

I’ve been struggling to conform to the teachings of the church for many years and have mostly failed. I was thinking on this recently and I realised that the sins I struggle with most, I don’t actually agree that they are sinful in the first place. I mean if I choose to masturbate, who am I harming? If my wife and I choose to engage in non-procreative sex acts who are we harming? I realise that these practices are deemed sinful because they are entirely lustful. But I reject that argument. It is possible for a non-procreative sex acts to take place within the context of a loving relationship, just as much as sex that’s open to procreation can take place in an entirely lustful context. I imagine you might mention masturbation being entirely lustful. So what I don’t see why that’s wrong as long as no one is harmed.

I have lost friends and been called a bigot for blindly preaching the churches teaching on homosexuality and same sex marriage. Again I find myself questioning why I did this as they don’t appear to be harming anyone. Worse than that, I’ve felt like a hypocrite due to my own struggles with masturbation, and having non-procreative sex with my wife.

Suddenly it’s become clear to me, that the issue is not with me, it’s with the archaic backward thinking dogma that’s been rammed down my throat.

Henceforth I am going to continue all my supposedly sinful practices, only from now on I won’t feel guilty about it. When I choose to attend church, I will still receive the Eucharist without any guilt because I haven’t done anything wrong.

I encourage everyone else to do the same.

Seriously. Pray on your course of action. You sound frustrated with your decisions and actions, recognize them as sins, and may be misguided by spiritual forces not from God. The evil one laughs when one of God’s faithful turns away from Him. I will pray for you and ask God to send the Spirit to protect and guide you. God Bless you.

 

[leather_couch]

Phil, I can relate with your frustration because I have been there myself. Still, I think it’s important to read here what some of the responses are because people are giving some very charitable answers and (name removed by moderator)ut. I too have struggled in the past with masturbation, wandering eye and even pornography and questioned very much why the Church holds its teachings on sex. One thing that is clear to me after reading and understanding the Church’s position on contraception/masturbation is that the issue is far more different than how we initially think of it. Nobody likes to be denied pleasure in his/her life. That said, sometimes we equate what is pleasureful with what is good or right for that matter. Think of how our culture teaches us to believe that abstinence is a form of repression or torture. I remember being quite surprised when I learned that there is no clinical evidence to indicate that masturbation is actually an aid to health. Sure, orgasm may provide a stress relieving function, but so do many things that we don’t engage in because they are not as enjoyable. I don’t think it is the case that the Church teaches what it does on sex and marriage because it believes sex is degrading. Actually, I was surprised to learn that the position is due to the sacredness of sex and its rightful order in bringing spouses together and providing for children into the world. But no matter what we think about the Church’s positions on individual sexual issues, I think it’s important to understand that marriage IS WHY the Church holds these “arcane” views. Let’s look at it this way; if married spouses are free to pleasure themselves they are not pointing in the optimal direction of their marriage vows and they are not living out practicing full fidelity. Our fantasies and desires can never be equal to the embrace of our spouses. Fundamentally, and realistically masturbation and contraception will never allow us full access to our partner because we are in essence saying, “I can’t fully give myself to you.” It seems like a harsh analysis at first, but it’s true. Another issue to consider is that human beings are more than just animals. Sure, we share much of our DNA and common ancestry with mammals. But let me ask you this: have you ever heard of animals practicing deliberate abstinence. We do have a great deal of control over our behaviors, regardless of our inclinations. It requires a good degree of patience and MUCH suffering certainly, but both of these things are integral parts of the Christian way. Before you cut the tree down so-to-speak pray on it. Ask God to give you clarity and allow time to listen and understand.
As for the issue of homosexuality, I really don’t know the answer of why people have these inclinations. Like so many things, I suspect there is a complexity that is too hard to put into a simple answer. Personal experience, biology and perhaps other factors contribute to it. I think the only thing that can be said so far - and I would caution against believing that there is a definitive answer - is that few, if any people people have any choice over their orientation. That is true whether or not a person’s sexuality could be due to epigenetic modifications or personal experience. Having lived with and become friends with many men with same sex attraction, I can tell you, I don’t know of any who have said they had a choice. But that’s but one part of a great mystery. Perhaps there is something broken in the human condition that makes us less able to control our disordered passions and the like. Doubtless there are “gay” couples who have a commitment to their partners, but particularly with gay men physical exclusivity is often NOT a feature of a relationship. One only look at the rate of open relationships among “gay” men to understand how this is the case. I sometimes wonder if our culture hasn’t gone perhaps a little insane as of late. Particularly when we read stories about how so-called marriage equality will make the institution of traditional marriage stronger. If marriage is already hurting, how does this help? But that’s a whole other story. There’s plenty of thngs that stress marriages, finances, disordered priorities, and personal fulfilment, etc. Sex is a whole other ballgame. To have redefined the legal bond to accomodate a seriously minute portion of the population seems foolish to me. Anyway, keep your mind open and resist the urge to go about thinking of what society wants. We want a lot of things that aren’t good for us.

 

[jaimeleglise]

If you find yourself to be in a state of mortal sin, please do not receive the Eucharist until
you make a good, valid Confession. To do otherwise would be committing a sacrilege.

Ask the Blessed Mother to help you. She loves you and wants to bring you to Heaven and to
her Son.

I am praying for you. Don’t give up. Things will get better.

 

[leather_couch]

.

Ask the Blessed Mother to help you. She loves you and wants to bring you to Heaven and to
her Son.
.

Well put.

 

[surritter]

“I realise that these practices are deemed sinful because they are entirely lustful.”

No – they’re deemed sinful because they HARM you, or your relationship with your spouse, or society at large. Nothing is sinful just because the Church or God says so. It’s because there are effects.

Just because you don’t see or understand the effects is not a reason to ignore the Church’s teaching. Study up on it (some good responses above!) and pray to listen to God’s will.

 

[Dorothy]

It is prayer and the sacraments that enable us to follow the Magisterium’s directives about the moral law.

The Magisterium is the voice of the Lord, in order to sanctify us. We are fallen people who have a tendency to sin and be selfish, but picking up our cross and following our Lord Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life includes in following His voice that comes from the authentic teaching authority of the Church. ( We call it the Magisterium). That is how the Lord sanctifies us and gives us His Peace.

Life is short, it is a waste of time to rebel against the Lord’s teachings.

The grace that enables us to follow the Lord comes from Him; He paid a high price for it.

 

[Rbaker]

I don’t really have much to add here because most of it has been said and I am only 18. BUT, I do want to make a tiny pitch here.

Look man, I understand that you are struggling. Everyone struggles with their faith at some time, and I’d be lying if I said I have never thought about just saying “I’m done with this!” But in my own life, every time that I have gotten close to that point, God has brought me back off the ledge.I think that in the bottom of your heart, you will feel a little guilty of what you’ve said, and you will realize you were probably just talking out of anger.

If not, and you honestly feel no guilt at all, then I will pray for you. (I am going to pray for you anyway if that is ok)

 

[Dorothy]

I don’t really have much to add here because most of it has been said and I am only 18. BUT, I do want to make a tiny pitch here.

Look man, I understand that you are struggling. Everyone struggles with their faith at some time, and I’d be lying if I said I have never thought about just saying “I’m done with this!” But in my own life, every time that I have gotten close to that point, God has brought me back off the ledge.I think that in the bottom of your heart, you will feel a little guilty of what you’ve said, and you will realize you were probably just talking out of anger.

If not, and you honestly feel no guilt at all, then I will pray for you. (I am going to pray for you anyway if that is ok)

Certainly pray for him. I will also.

 

[808Catholic]

Phil, I can relate with your frustration because I have been there myself. Still, I think it’s important to read here what some of the responses are because people are giving some very charitable answers and (name removed by moderator)ut. I too have struggled in the past with masturbation, wandering eye and even pornography and questioned very much why the Church holds its teachings on sex. One thing that is clear to me after reading and understanding the Church’s position on contraception/masturbation is that the issue is far more different than how we initially think of it. Nobody likes to be denied pleasure in his/her life. That said, sometimes we equate what is pleasureful with what is good or right for that matter. Think of how our culture teaches us to believe that abstinence is a form of repression or torture. I remember being quite surprised when I learned that there is no clinical evidence to indicate that masturbation is actually an aid to health. Sure, orgasm may provide a stress relieving function, but so do many things that we don’t engage in because they are not as enjoyable. I don’t think it is the case that the Church teaches what it does on sex and marriage because it believes sex is degrading. Actually, I was surprised to learn that the position is due to the sacredness of sex and its rightful order in bringing spouses together and providing for children into the world. But no matter what we think about the Church’s positions on individual sexual issues, I think it’s important to understand that marriage IS WHY the Church holds these “arcane” views. Let’s look at it this way; if married spouses are free to pleasure themselves they are not pointing in the optimal direction of their marriage vows and they are not living out practicing full fidelity. Our fantasies and desires can never be equal to the embrace of our spouses. Fundamentally, and realistically masturbation and contraception will never allow us full access to our partner because we are in essence saying, “I can’t fully give myself to you.” It seems like a harsh analysis at first, but it’s true. Another issue to consider is that human beings are more than just animals. Sure, we share much of our DNA and common ancestry with mammals. But let me ask you this: have you ever heard of animals practicing deliberate abstinence. We do have a great deal of control over our behaviors, regardless of our inclinations. It requires a good degree of patience and MUCH suffering certainly, but both of these things are integral parts of the Christian way. Before you cut the tree down so-to-speak pray on it. Ask God to give you clarity and allow time to listen and understand.
As for the issue of homosexuality, I really don’t know the answer of why people have these inclinations. Like so many things, I suspect there is a complexity that is too hard to put into a simple answer. Personal experience, biology and perhaps other factors contribute to it. I think the only thing that can be said so far - and I would caution against believing that there is a definitive answer - is that few, if any people people have any choice over their orientation. That is true whether or not a person’s sexuality could be due to epigenetic modifications or personal experience. Having lived with and become friends with many men with same sex attraction, I can tell you, I don’t know of any who have said they had a choice. But that’s but one part of a great mystery. Perhaps there is something broken in the human condition that makes us less able to control our disordered passions and the like. Doubtless there are “gay” couples who have a commitment to their partners, but particularly with gay men physical exclusivity is often NOT a feature of a relationship. One only look at the rate of open relationships among “gay” men to understand how this is the case. I sometimes wonder if our culture hasn’t gone perhaps a little insane as of late. Particularly when we read stories about how so-called marriage equality will make the institution of traditional marriage stronger. If marriage is already hurting, how does this help? But that’s a whole other story. There’s plenty of thngs that stress marriages, finances, disordered priorities, and personal fulfilment, etc. Sex is a whole other ballgame. To have redefined the legal bond to accomodate a seriously minute portion of the population seems foolish to me. Anyway, keep your mind open and resist the urge to go about thinking of what society wants. We want a lot of things that aren’t good for us.

Excellent post! Thank you for your testimony!