James White on Lk 1:28 and Kecharitomene

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So, I recommend a book and now I’m a devotee?

As I pointed out…it’s fruits are no more evident than the supposed unity of Romehow many Catholic divisions are there? Presently 242 for 2000, predicting 245 for 2025.

So can we dispense with this lame argument?

Right…
This guy’s just regurgitating James White’s article “The 33,000 Denominations Myth”. Notice that he appeared on this forum at precisely the same time as Aomin picked up the story. He is likely from Aomin.

My friend, there is only ONE Catholic Church, not 242 denominations of it. Please read here:
 
Then for the love of Pete…can we, you, CA, Steve Ray, Tim Staples** QUIT SITING IT?**

And I guess underlying it all is the idea that somehow if one is not totally unified then it’s the fault of “Sola Scriptura”…

As I pointed out…if there is not JUST ONE unified RCC church, (and there is not) then it’s the fault of the Magisterium…

And you can see what a leap in logic that was…so flip it over and it doesn’t get any more logical…
There certainly is only ONE unified RCC Church. Now, instead of 33,000 or even 300 protestant denominational churches having resulted from Sola Scripture, would you accept that even just TEN are a direct result? It matters not the number. Anything more than ONE should require you to bail and return home to the Catholic Church by sole virtue of Christ’s desire that there be ONE flock and ONE shepherd. You do believe in Sola Scriptura don’t you. So, start paying attention to what Christ has explicity required and get with the programme.
 
1.) You have not proven that SS has done that; it’s a logic leap.
Logic leap? It’s so obvious it doesn’t even need logic (if that could be possible). Absolutely, and without possible confusion, the refusal to submit to the authority of Rome, hand in hand with the belief that the Bible is the sole authority, can have no other possible result than the conflagration of Christian churches. I do not see how this can be avoided. Conversely, if one remained in filial communion with Rome, trustfully suppressing one’s own ideologies and preferences, one simply would not participate in the building of new churches. It really is a simple as that.
 
You DON’T use Babelfish to translate Koine Greek. You aren’t proving anything by using it.

CM
Check out my original response and tell me where I used Babelfish to translate anything. The only thing I did with Babelfish was to take the Greek characters [letters] in the word ‘κεχαριτωμενη’ and change them to English characters [letters]. So 'κεχαριτωμενη’in Greek characters is ‘kecharitomene’ in English characters. Here is the portion of my post on htis issue:

“The word we are interested in is 'κεχαριτωμενη” and according to Babelfish translator that word [in English characters] is kecharitomeni not charitoo as in the KJV. So your translation of the Textus Receptus is in error just as the KJV is in error."

You are trying to wiggle off the hook on this one by making a false accusation. Since when was deceit and fraud part of the christian apologist tool kit?
 
So, I’m currently in a debate on the meaning of the Greek word kecharitomene (“full of grace”) in Lk 1:28 and the implications for Marian dogma. My opponent recently provided the following argument by James White:

However, if we look at Mr. Keating’s presentation, it seems clear that he is basing his interpretation not primarily upon the lexical meaning of the word caritow, but upon the form it takes in Luke 1:28, that being the perfect passive participle, kecaritomene. Note that Keating alleges that the “Greek indicates a perfection of grace.” He seems to be playing on the perfect tense of the participle. But, as anyone trained in Greek is aware, there is no way to jump from the perfect tense of a participle to the idea that the Greek “indicates a perfection of grace.” First, participles primarily derive their tense aspect from the main verb of the sentence. In this case, however, we have a vocative participle, and no main verb in what is in actuality simply a greeting. (The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should say a great deal in and of itself.) What are we to do with the perfect tense of the participle, then? We might take it as an intensive perfect, one that emphatically states that something is (see Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament pg. 202), but most likely it is simply emphasizing the certainty of the favor given, just as the perfect passive participle in Matthew 25:34 (“Come, you who are blessed by my Father…”), 1 Thessalonians 1:4 (“For we know, brothers loved by God…”), and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (“But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord…”) emphasizes the completedness of the action as well. No one would argue that in Matthew 25:34, Jesus means to tell us that the righteous have a “perfection of blessedness that indicates that they had this perfection throughout their life, for a perfection must be perfect not only intensively, but extensively” (to borrow from Mr. Keating’s presentation). The application of Keating’s thoughts to any of the above passages results in foolishness. Hence, it is obvious that when Keating says that the Greek indicates that Mary “must have been in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called `full of grace’ or to have been filled with divine favor in a singular way,” he is, in point of fact, not deriving this from the Greek at all, but from his own theology, which he then reads back into the text. There is simply nothing in the Greek to support the pretentious interpretation put forward by Keating and Madrid. Therefore, Madrid’s statement, “This is a recognition of her sinless state,” falls for lack of support. The angel addressed Mary as “highly favored,” for, as he himself said, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.”

You can read White’s entire article here. At any rate, if I am understanding White correctly, his argument can be restated like this:

If Mt 25:34; 1 Thes 1:4; and 2 Thes 2:13 all have the same perfect passive tense as Lk 1:28, why don’t we understand those verses the same way we understand Lk 1:28, as indicating a permanent state of fullness, completion, or perfection of the verb in question?

Have I properly understood his argument? How would you respond to this argument?

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic
**I would respond the same way James White is fond of, which is ‘context’. In none of the other verses do we have the same context as we do in Lk 1:28. You see, James is keen to ignoring context when it favors him, and relies only on lexiconical graphs to make his point. But his head explodes when someone used his own tactics. Notice that the protestant writer you cite derides Keating for ‘ignoring the Greek and relying on his own theology’, yet, that is exactly what James White is famous for, as well as his protestant brethern. I hear it often on his show ‘the dividing line’.

In Mt. 25:34, the word is ‘εὐλογέω’ which means ‘blessed’ or even ‘consecrated’ and the word in Lk 1:28 refering to Mary is also ‘εὐλογέω’, but, what is taking place in Lk 1:28 is far more important than the mere words which describe the event. In Mt. 25:34, the Apsotles are ‘blessed of the Father’ and ‘inheritors of the Kingdom’, but that blessing given by Christ’s own mouth would not have been possible had not the Virgin said, ‘Let it be according to thy will’ [Lk 1:38]. So, Catholics recognize far more than verbs, nouns and parts of speech. We are clued, by the Spirit, to the actual importance to the events themselves.While the word is repated some 40+ times in the NT, there is a singular and unique context in Lk 1:28 that the protestant **needs to ignore.
 
Lotahair 😃

What an appropriate response to the smooth faced debater J.W. I just saw a couple of his vids today. You have a way with words… 👍
Check out my original response and tell me where I used Babelfish to translate anything. The only thing I did with Babelfish was to take the Greek characters [letters] in the word ‘κεχαριτωμενη’ and change them to English characters [letters]. So 'κεχαριτωμενη’in Greek characters is ‘kecharitomene’ in English characters. Here is the portion of my post on htis issue:

“The word we are interested in is 'κεχαριτωμενη” and according to Babelfish translator that word [in English characters] is kecharitomeni not charitoo as in the KJV. So your translation of the Textus Receptus is in error just as the KJV is in error."
κε-χαριτω-μεν-η
ke-charito-men-i

I kind of see what you are getting at; although you could perhaps be more clear.
The Hyphens break the word up into it’s constituent parts.
One complaint that Churchmouse could raise (though he seems to have abandoned – and I seriously doubt he will ever find a exception!) is that the center portion of the word is the same letter set as charitoo. The center portion is the root/stem – the first two letters are a temporal augment (making the word longer) and also reduplication – Ch and K are the same general sound.
But the essential verb is the center portion.

The reduplication (a form of temporal augment) is what clues one into this being perfect tense along with the -men- making it a participle, and the Eta (-η) showing it to be a feminine nominative, eg: That the word is both the subject and therefore the target of the verb it contains since it is also passive.

When we talk about “the Judge” in English, it is a similar idea. The thing the person does or is known for becomes the title – we just don’t add extra letters to make it clear that it isn’t a verb as the Greeks did.

The “men” part indicates that the voice is middle/passive – in this case passive is required, otherwise it would be she-who-has-(for herself)-endowed-with-grace… etc.
That would go beyond church teaching, for Mary would then be the source of grace – so we don’t bother defending that possibility (Which would be unusal in any event as the usage of the word wouldn’t make sense – as the general idea of grace is used between two people/things ).

I haven’t checked the dictionaries used, but generally they list a word by its first person singular present form – eg: they might be listing it as:

χαριτο-ο/ω
charito(o)/(W)

Or some variation as a convention. That particular word, I don’t recall coming across in actual Koine Greek of scripture spelled with double oo.

But, Phil Vaz above points something out from Calvinist (at the time) Max Thurian in post #185 concerning the extra emphasis on fullness meant by oo ending words.
That is a more potent argument, for he is citing examples of other words which have “fullness” associated with them because of the oo. These can be checked as can variations since Max gives enough information to find many other words with a similar property.

It looks to me that James White made up something that sounded good, or is an esoteric rule which doesn’t apply to this particular phrase. I seriously can’t find anything that supports his claims.

Keep on studying, there is so much to learn about God’s plan in the scriptures.

Peace.
 
It looks to me that James White made up something that sounded good, or is an esoteric rule which doesn’t apply to this particular phrase. I seriously can’t find anything that supports his claims.
You want a good laugh? Go to White’s website and read his “Statement of faith”. A bag of sand from Lowe’s carries more weight and serves as a better foundation. It’s a creed which rejects creeds. It’s a council which rejects councils, its a church which rejects churches. He’s an authority solely because he has a bible, which has the power of God right there between the covers. And, it’s all his…

aomin.org/articles/statement.html
 
James White is a self aggrandizing, bigoted wind-bag-why would I care about anything he says.Alpha and Omega Ministries website is obviously a blog for the James White fanclub and worship society.:eek:
 
James White is a self aggrandizing, bigoted wind-bag-why would I care about anything he says.Alpha and Omega Ministries website is obviously a blog for the James White fanclub and worship society.:eek:
It is evidence of the high level of relativism in modern society that he is given any credibility at all.
 
ChurchMouse doesn’t seem willing to follow the natural and logical conclusion that the verses intimate. Not surprising at all.

Mary was ‘blessed’ and ‘favored’ in ***some moment before ***the angelic visit. Catholics, in light of the nature an effect of original sin, back her favored status and blessed position to the point of her conception. To be honest, I don’t see how this can be theologically denied as important dogma. Either Mary was conceived without sin or Jesus was the heir of her fallen flesh.

Mary’s perfection flows from the Grace of Jesus, but the moment of that Grace happened long before she had an idea of who she was to become.

I really think that the only reason to reject the dogma is that it just sounds to ‘Catholic’.
 
ChurchMouse doesn’t seem willing to follow the natural and logical conclusion that the verses intimate. Not surprising at all.

Mary was ‘blessed’ and ‘favored’ in ***some moment before ***the angelic visit. Catholics, in light of the nature an effect of original sin, back her favored status and blessed position to the point of her conception. To be honest, I don’t see how this can be theologically denied as important dogma. Either Mary was conceived without sin or Jesus was the heir of her fallen flesh.

Mary’s perfection flows from the Grace of Jesus, but the moment of that Grace happened long before she had an idea of who she was to become.

I really think that the only reason to reject the dogma is that it just sounds to ‘Catholic’.
Such reasoning can be expected from those who believe that we enter heaven like snow-covered dung heaps.
 
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