James White

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_Christopher_:
Can you provide such documents proving your assertion?
What I asserted is that it seems that even Rome itself had no concept of a papacy before the time of the Roman bishop Stephen in the middle of the third century. I place emphasis on the word “seems” because I acknowledge that the Roman church prior to Stephen didn’t comment explicitly on this subject. But the weight of probability seems to support the conclusion that the early Roman churches had no concept of a papacy.

One of the earliest documents we have related to the Roman church is First Clement. Though it’s often cited by Catholics as evidence of an early papacy, it’s more reasonably interpreted as evidence against an early papacy. “Some scholars anachronistically saw in the epistle an assertion of Roman primacy, but nowadays a hermeneutic of collegiality is more widely accepted.” (Thomas Halton, Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, Everett Ferguson, editor [New York: Garland Publishing, Inc., 1999], p. 253) The letter is written in the name of the church of Rome, not the bishop of Rome. Though it cites the authority of the apostles, the authority of scripture, and the authority of the Holy Spirit, for example, in its attempt to correct the errors of the Corinthians, it never cites papal authority. A citation of papal authority, if such existed at the time, could have gone far in settling the disruptions in Corinth, yet First Clement makes many appeals to other sources of authority without ever mentioning any papal authority.

It seems that the early Roman churches were led by a plurality of elders, without a monarchical episcopate. J.N.D. Kelly argues that “government of the local church by a single bishop as distinct from a group of presbyter-bishops, finally emerged in Rome in the mid-2nd cent.” (Oxford Dictionary of Popes [New York: Oxford University Press, 1996], p. 6) Regarding another early document written by a member of the Roman church, the Catholic historian Robert Eno wrote:

“Hermas was a farmer, an ex-slave who was a member of the Roman community [around the time of the apostles] who received what we would call visions and private revelations, most of which concern the problem of sin in the Church and the issue of public penance. What is of interest here are the incidental remarks which mention the leaders of the Christian community in Rome. These leaders are usually referred to by such vague titles as ‘the leaders’ (e.g., Vision II.2.6; III.9.7). Sometimes they are called elders as ‘the elders who are in charge of the Church’ (Vis. II.4.3). It is significant to note that these references are all in the plural. In other places, bishops are mentioned (again in the plural); they are usually linked with others, e.g., bishops, teachers and deacons (Vis. III.5.1)…This evidence (Clement, Hermas, Ignatius) points us in the direction of assuming that in the first century and into the second, there was no bishop of Rome in the usual sense given to that title. The office of the single mon-episkopos was slowly emerging in the local Christian communities around the Mediterranean world. Men like Ignatius were strongly urging this development. But the evidence seems to indicate that in the earliest decades, this evolution had not yet been accomplished in Rome. This then is that missing link referred to by Rudolf Pesch. If there were no bishop of Rome, in what sense can one speak of a Petrine succession?” (The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], pp. 27-29)

Late in the second century, there was a dispute over the celebration of Easter, a dispute led largely by the Roman bishop Victor. We have a variety of sources extant commenting on that dispute, such as Irenaeus, Polycrates, and Eusebius. In Irenaeus’ letter to Victor, Polycrates’ response to Victor, and Eusebius’ description of the entire controversy, there’s no mention of papal authority. There are appeals to the authority of church traditions, for example, but neither Victor nor his opponents are ever cited discussing papal authority, even though such a dispute is the sort of context in which we might expect such a discussion.

I’ll conclude, in my next post, with some comments on the Roman church of Cyprian’s time.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
I referred, in a previous post, to Cyprian having good relations with the Roman church prior to the bishopric of Stephen. I’m thinking in particular of Cyprian’s relationship with the Roman bishop Cornelius. Anybody interested can read the correspondence between the two found in the letters of Cyprian:

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/TOC.htm

Several years before Stephen became bishop of Rome, the Roman clergy wrote a letter to Cyprian in which they made some comments that seem to reflect a non-papal view of church government. They refer to how Cyprian doesn’t need to consult with them, but does so anyway, and they refer to how it would be wrong for any one church leader to think that he can act authoritatively on his own:

“Although a mind conscious to itself of uprightness, and relying on the vigour of evangelical discipline, and made a true witness to itself in the heavenly decrees, is accustomed to be satisfied with God for its only judge, and neither to seek the praises nor to dread the charges of any other, yet those are worthy of double praise, who, knowing that they owe their conscience to God alone as the judge, yet desire that their doings should be approved also by their brethren themselves…For it seems extremely invidious and burdensome to examine into what seems to have been committed by many, except by the advice of many; or that one should give a sentence when so great a crime is known to have gone forth, and to be diffused among so many; since that cannot be a firm decree which shall not appear to have had the consent of very many.” (Letter 30:1, 30:5)

Given the evidence I’ve discussed in these two posts, I think it’s likely that the Roman churches prior to the bishopric of Stephen had no concept of a papacy. More significantly, though, we know, from how people like Cyprian and Firmilian reacted to Stephen, that they rejected the concept. The first explicit advocacy of the concept of a papacy comes about 200 years after Peter’s death, and it’s met with a negative reaction by bishops in the West and East.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
Emily Watson:
Are you implying that there is a correlation between the papacy, atheism and prostitution?
I was saying that an inability to date the origin of something doesn’t prove that it always existed or that it’s acceptable.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
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PhilVaz:
Here’s the problem: you don’t trace “scripture” back to them. There was no NT Scripture until the apostles started writing it down, and there was no 27-book canon until the 4th century. So you don’t trace the “scripture” (the canon we accept today) back to the apostles, we trace it to the decisions of the Catholic Church and her bishops of the 4th century. You know all this, yet you try hard to escape it.
The fact that the first extant mention of the 27-book canon is in the fourth century doesn’t prove that the books of the canon aren’t traced back to the apostles. J.N.D. Kelly explains in Early Christian Doctrines (San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978) that “the criterion which ultimately came to prevail was apostolicity. Unless a book could be shown to come from the pen of an apostle, or at least to have the authority of an apostle behind it, it was peremptorily rejected, however edifying or popular with the faithful it might be.” (p. 60) We have historical reasons, within the documents and outside of them, to conclude that the early church’s judgment was credible. We agree with the judgment on the 27-book canon because the evidence supports the apostolicity of the documents, not because we think the RCC made an infallible judgment on the issue. The fourth century sources aren’t infallible by Roman Catholic standards, nor are they by Evangelical standards.
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PhilVaz:
I stated the apostles are the first line of the magisterium of the Catholic Church, and they were the “rule of faith” before a word of NT Scripture existed. The apostles appointed successors the bishops, and they became the guardians of the Scripture and Tradition as it was handed down.
There was a change over time. You as a Roman Catholic believe that the rule of faith was different at different times in history. Why, then, would you not only criticize James White for believing the same thing, but even claim to not understand why he would believe it?
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PhilVaz:
Apostolic succession is not some “vague” concept, but clearly defined in St. Irenaeus, etc.
I didn’t say that apostolic succession is a vague concept. I said that you have to be vague in defining the Roman Catholic rule of faith in order to argue that it’s referred to in Matthew 16. It would be like an Evangelical saying that the Evangelical rule of faith is “the word of God”, without specifying scripture. If you can claim that the Roman Catholic rule of faith was in effect in Matthew 16, why couldn’t an Evangelical claim that his rule of faith was in effect whenever the word of God existed in any form?
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PhilVaz:
If you can agree with Mathison
I haven’t read his book. In the past, I’ve seen you overestimate your agreement with groups such as Eastern Orthodoxy, so I’m skeptical of your claim to agree with Keith Mathison to such an extent. Regardless, I haven’t read his book, so I can’t say much about it.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
JasonTE citing Klaus Schatz << The further question whether there was any notion of an enduring office beyond Peter’s lifetime, if posed in purely historical terms, should probably be answered in the negative. That is, if we ask whether the historical Jesus, in commissioning Peter, expected him to have successors, or whether the author of the Gospel of Matthew, writing after Peter’s death, was aware that Peter and his commission survived in the leaders of the Roman community who succeeded him, the answer in both cases is probably ‘no.’ >>

Yeah, “if posed in purely historical terms…” Check Schatz other comments on other statements of the “historical Jesus” and you’ll probably discover something along the lines of:

If we ask whether the “historical Jesus” expected to begin a Christian or Catholic church, the answer is probably No.

If we ask whether the “historical Jesus” said much if anything that is recorded in the Gospel of John as we have it today, the answer is probably No.

If we ask whether the “historical Jesus” believed he was the Messiah or the Son of God, the answer is probably No.

If we ask whether the apostle Matthew was “the author of the Gospel of Matthew,” the answer is probably No.

That’s probably his viewpoint (more liberal or “modernist”), so no wonder he doesn’t believe Jesus intended Peter to have successors, he probably didn’t believe Jesus intended to found a Catholic Church, nor that the statement of Jesus founding a Church was written by an eyewitness (the apostle Matthew). Just trying to clarify what is probably Schatz view: along the lines of a John Dominic Crossan, but perhaps not that radical.

If someone is willing to translate the titles of some of these books and articles, we’ll probably learn more about him. To be fair, a little more from Schatz on what is the consensus among biblical scholars on Peter:

“Not only the three classical Petrine texts (Matt 16:13-19; Luke 22:31-34; John 21:15-17) but also many others, including especially the presentation of Peter as first witness to the resurrection (1 Cor 15:5) testify to Peter’s position as leader of the Twelve and of the primitive community, a role conferred on him by Jesus and exercised by virtue of that commission.” (Schatz, Papal Primacy [1996], page 1)

Phil P
 
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Apolonio:
Have you eliminated all the possibilities of the other rules of faith? Have you proven that there are no other infallible rule of faith?
I don’t have to. I can be confident without being certain, just as you would claim to be confident about your historical conclusions even though it’s possible that a piece of evidence you’re unaware of would change your view.
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Apolonio:
Are you saying that if I only have 40 books in my Bible, I am still supposed to practice Sola Scriptura? I don’t understand that. If all scripture makes a man fully-equipped (understanding that revelation has been closed), then I do not think that anything less of “all” would make man fully-equipped simply because he is “missing” some of God’s Word; he does not have the fullness of God’s Word.
If only 40 books existed at the time, then 40 books would be the fullness at that time. You refer to how “revelation has been closed”, but we were discussing 2 Timothy. Revelation wasn’t closed at that time.
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Apolonio:
But what I’m asking is what about those churches which did not have all 27 books? Did they practice Sola Scripura? If not, how did the Holy Spirit bring them to all truth?
You’re changing your argument. What you said in your earlier post was that nobody had the 27-book canon prior to Athanasius. But now you’re asking “what about those churches which did not have all 27 books”. Those are two different issues.

To answer your current argument, yes, a church without all 27 books could practice sola scriptura, though the content would be different. The content would be different for the Roman Catholic rule of faith as well. If you’re going to argue that somebody like Justin Martyr couldn’t have practiced sola scriptura without the 27-book canon, because the content of his rule of faith would be less than the full potential, then you would also have to conclude that people who didn’t have all of the content of the Roman Catholic rule of faith weren’t following that rule. Therefore, the Christians who lived before John wrote the book of Revelation or the church fathers who didn’t agree with the Roman Catholic canon of scripture, for example, couldn’t have been following the Roman Catholic rule of faith.
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Apolonio:
And when did the practice of Sola Scriptra begin?
It would vary from person to person, just as it would for the Roman Catholic rule of faith. Some people who were contemporaries of the apostles would have a memory of what the apostles had taught orally. But not everybody would. There would be some people who only knew what had been passed down through scripture, church tradition, etc., and there would be others who also had personal memories of apostolic teaching. We don’t have that problem today, because we’re so far from the time of the apostles, but the historical difficulty for those living closer to that time would exist for either rule of faith, not just sola scriptura.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
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PhilVaz:
Just trying to clarify what is probably Schatz view
I cited Schatz because of his comments on the state of modern scholarship. I also cited Craig Keener, who is a conservative, and Jaroslav Pelikan. And I’ve supported their assessment with evidence from the original documents.

Schatz is a Roman Catholic scholar who teaches at a Roman Catholic university. If he’s as wrong as you suggest, why doesn’t your denomination discipline him? If he’s correct about the majority of Roman Catholic scholars agreeing with him, as seems to be the case, what does that tell us about the status of your denomination?

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
Jason, you should get Mathison’s book. Sure he has problems with Catholic doctrine in the book, but the parts I like is where he admits the visible Church does the interpreting of Scripture. Something Webster/King try to downplay through their 3 big volumes on sola scriptura.

In summary, Mathison says the correct rule of faith is the Scripture as interpreted by the visible Church.

The (Roman) Catholic says the correct rule of faith is the Scripture as interpreted by the visible Church.

Leaving aside the question of “material” sufficiency of Scripture (which Catholics can accept, and Yves Congar in his book on Tradition says the Fathers accepted), that’s a basic agreement on “sola scriptura.” So the bottom line issue is, what and where is this visible Church?

That’s it, I’m done here. 😃 I don’t see any point in re-hashing all this, although some new people have never seen this stuff I guess.

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
Jason, you should get Mathison’s book. Sure he has problems with Catholic doctrine in the book, but the parts I like is where he admits the visible Church does the interpreting of Scripture. Something Webster/King try to downplay through their 3 big volumes on sola scriptura.
Are you aware that Keith Mathison has given the King/Webster series a positive review? It’s at:

ligonier.org/review/revheader.php?resourceid=657
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PhilVaz:
Leaving aside the question of “material” sufficiency of Scripture (which Catholics can accept, and Yves Congar in his book on Tradition says the Fathers accepted)
There’s no one rule of faith that all of the fathers accepted. Papias, for example, can’t be characterized as holding to formal sufficiency or material sufficiency. He apparently didn’t believe in any sufficiency of scripture. His concept of tradition consisted of his own personal memories of apostolic teaching and information he attained from other people who had heard the apostles and their associates. Some of the church fathers who refer to a sufficiency of scripture never refer to the church being an infallible interpreter, so any assertion that they were referring only to a material sufficiency is unproveable. Even among those who did refer to the church interpreting scripture, they repeatedly defined the church and defined tradition differently than Roman Catholics do. If they held to some form of material sufficiency, it wasn’t necessarily Roman Catholic material sufficiency.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
JasonTE << There’s no one rule of faith that all of the fathers accepted. >>

Okay I guess I’m not done. Here is Yves Congar summary of the Fathers, and much of this you will find in Mathison:

(A) The true Catholic Faith and true interpretation of the Scriptures is found only in the Church which is bound up with the succession of its ministers (apostolic succession, not of doctrine only – as wrongly claimed by Webster/King – but of its bishops, ministers, pastors succeeding the authority of the apostles);

(B) The “rule of faith” or “rule of truth” was not the whole of Tradition; it may be the principal part, but there are other things transmitted from the apostles by tradition: rules of conduct, behavior/practice, on worship/liturgy, etc.

(C) The content of tradition consisted “materially” of the Scriptures, but “formally” of the Faith of the Catholic Church, its reading of the Scriptures in the Creed, etc; the mere text of Scripture alone was insufficient; heretics also quoted Scripture but they did not read that Scripture in the context of the Tradition or the orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church;

(D) The Catholic Church alone has received the apostolic deposit of truth, for in her the Holy Spirit of truth lives (John 14:16f; 16:13f); the Church alone is the sole inheritor of the true Christian teaching from God through Christ to the Apostles;

(E) This Tradition – the Church’s Tradition – is itself oral; and if there were no NT Scriptures it would have been sufficient for the Church to follow “the order of tradition” received from the apostles; in the minds of the early Christians it made no difference if the transmission was purely oral since there was an assured connection to the apostles through the Churches founded by the apostles to guarantee authenticity;

(F) Scripture was everything for the Fathers, and Tradition was everything also;

(G) What was the nature of the Church of the Fathers? It was one universal visible Church ruled by a hierarchy of bishops, presbyters/priests, deacons, etc in succession from the apostles (apostolic succession, again not “succession of doctrine” only);

(H) The entire activity of the Fathers demonstrates that they united three terms that were separated and set in opposition by the controversies of the 16th century – these three terms were Scripture, Tradition, and Church; it was always affirmed that Scripture is the rule and norm of faith only when conjoined to the Church and her Tradition;

(I) Hence, the Scriptures were never considered by the Fathers as formally “sufficient” or exclusive.

Yes, I’m aware that Mathison gave thumbs up to Webster/King, but I think it is also true that Mathison is more fair in his shorter book emphasizing the role of the Church in interpretation, while Webster/King constantly try to downplay that in their rather long volumes. Although I recommend both their books, along with the 38 volumes of the Schaff/Wace set, and whatever Catholic editions of the Fathers you can find.

I don’t expect you to respond to all this, just as I am not responding to all your posts and points. 😃

Phil P
 
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JasonTE:
Schatz is a Roman Catholic scholar who teaches at a Roman Catholic university. If he’s as wrong as you suggest, why doesn’t your denomination discipline him? If he’s correct about the majority of Roman Catholic scholars agreeing with him, as seems to be the case, what does that tell us about the status of your denomination?
That’s an easy question to answer. Catholic Church discipline is in shambles. We can’t even properly discipline Hans Kung.
 
Here is some of what I could translate from Schatz’s website, or rather a brief listing of his literary achievments. What I could see were only the titles of what he wrote and these sounded rather benign at best. Here they are not in any particular order. I’m lazy and had to blow the dust off my German dictionary, plus it’s late at night for me. I hope someone else can do a better job.

"Between Secularism and the II Vatican Council…

"The way of German Catholicism in the 19th and 20th centuries, (Frankfurt 1986)

“The Papal Primacy, Her History from the beginning to the present time” (Wurtzburg, 1990)

A couple of his articles:

“Is Church History Theology?” ThPh 55 (1980), 481-513

"How did the 1970 definition of ‘Infallibility’ come to be?, comprehensive (?) and present positions (Munich-Zurich 1982 67-88.

Without actually getting to read ANY of these articles or books, I couldn’t make any assesment of this man. I noticed from his picture that he is not wearing any clerical garb which seems odd to me…also Mr. Engwer, just because we have some wheat among the tares as Jesus said we would, we must let HIM sort it all out which he’ll do at the end of time lest some of the wheat be inadvertantly destroyed. I am sure you have many among your own faith tradition who probably embarrass you or might “weaken” your position. Also, we are not a denomination since we did not “denominate” off from anyone.

My last comment concerns you, Mr. Engwer AND James White.

While I disagree with your positions, I DO appreciate the fact that you keep our brains engaged. Now by the grace of God may our hearts be engaged as well. - In Christian charity - Michelle

Bis zum nachtes zeit (until next time), Tschuss! (so long!) 🙂
 
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Mfaustina1:
Mr. Engwer, just because we have some wheat among the tares as Jesus said we would, we must let HIM sort it all out which he’ll do at the end of time lest some of the wheat be inadvertantly destroyed.
If you think Jesus was addressing church discipline, then why does the RCC discipline anybody? If a priest rapes and murders people under his care, why not just leave him in office? And what are we to make of the many Biblical passages on church discipline? Why were such passages written if Jesus, in the passage you’re alluding to, meant to tell us not to practice church discipline? When church fathers such as Polycarp and Irenaeus wrote about removing immoral church leaders and only following leaders who meet moral and doctrinal standards, were they mistaken? Are you going to argue that men like Polycarp and Irenaeus were disobeying what Jesus commanded?

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
JasonTE-

Before I reply to your other responses point by point…
What I asserted is that it seems that even Rome itself had no concept of a papacy before the time of the Roman bishop Stephen in the middle of the third century. I place emphasis on the word “seems” because I acknowledge that the Roman church prior to Stephen didn’t comment explicitly on this subject. But the weight of probability seems to support the conclusion that the early Roman churches had no concept of a papacy.
Um…are you looking for the word “Papacy” or the concept?

Since you claim that the “Roman Church” never commented on the Papacy in the early days, I would like your opinion on this…
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES - BOOK III
  1. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
What does that mean to you?
 
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PhilVaz:
But I’ll admit that Catholics/Orthodox aren’t that far away from some definitions of sola scriptura. When you define it as Keith Mathison does in his book The Shape of Sola Scriptura, giving the Church an essential role in interpretation (not necessarily infallible, but at least extremely important), then there isn’t much difference between that “sola scriptura” and the Catholic rule of faith spelled out in Vatican II, which gives Scripture a special place.

For example, Mathison says about the Church: “it is to the Church as a visible body that we must turn to find the true interpretation and preaching of the good news of Christ. It is therefore to the Church that we must turn for the true interpretation of the Scripture, for it is in the Scripture that the gospel is found” (p. 268-270). There are leaders in the Church “to whom we owe obedience and submission (Heb 13:17)” (p. 272)

Mathison says: The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), established by Christ, given by Him the authority to “bind and loose” that is not given to every member of the Church as individuals (Matt 16:19; 18:18). The Church is Christ’s body and bride, “the instrument through which God makes the truth of His Word known” (Eph 3:10). And outside the Church there is no salvation (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) refers to the visible Church (p. 268).

Mathison also says: The Scripture is to be interpreted in and by that Church within the regula fidei (rule of faith). Taken out of this context, it would inevitably be mishandled (repeated on pages 48, 81, 85, 120, 140, 147, 150, 151, 167, 267).
I too found Mathison’s *The Shape of Sola Scriptura *a good read. Mathison’s view is very similar to that of Heiko Oberman. In fact, it could be argued that Mathison borrowed directly from Oberman (see chapter XII, “Quo Vadis Petre?” in Oberman’s The Dawn of the Reformation, Eerdamans, 1992). Mathison and Oberman argue that true sola scriptura accepts a certain view of tradition, which they term “Tradition I”; that the early church accepted this view; and that some scholastics maintained this view up to Trent. They also argue that a “new concept” of tradition was formulated by Basil the Great in the 4th century, and term this form of tradition “Tradition II”. [Tradition I is the view that the “rule of faith” forms the foundational basis for the interpretation of scripture; while Tradition II is the belief in a “two source theory” of revelation (partim-partim).] Mathison and Oberman also posit a third form of tradition, “Tradition III” which is linked to Cardinal Newman’s thought. [Tradition III is the view that tradition is the interpretation of scripture/revelation by the magisterium, and that all oral revelation is in scripture (at least implicitly).]

Now, Mathison and Oberman argue that the Reformers returned to “Tradition I” after Trent rejected it in favor of “Tradition II”. They also argue that the majority of post-VII Catholic theologians have rejected both “Tradition I”, and “Tradition II” for “Tradition III”. Unfortunately, both Mathison and Oberman ignore much of what Catholic theologians have written. Men like Geiselmann, Tavard, and Rahner have argued that Trent never officially adopted “Tradition II”, and that “Tradition III” is nothing more than a more fully developed view of “Tradition I”.

And finally, Mathison argues that much of modern evangelicalism has rejected any role of tradition for what he calls “solo scriptura”. On page 238, Mathison states that Doug Jones was the first person to coin the term “solo scriptura” in 1997]. Mathison calls the “solo scriptura” view “Tradition 0”.

In ending, Mathison’s book should be read, but immediately after, I would highly recommend that one read *Your Word Is Truth – A Project of Evangelicals and Catholics Together *(edited by Charles Colson and Richard Neuhaus), which will help correct some of the errors of Mathison, while presenting a more balanced view.

Aug
 
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Apolonio:
So when exactly did the Church practice sola scriptura? The Epistle to Timothy says that “ALL Scripture…makes the man of God fully-equipped.” Notice how it says “all” scripture, not just “some” or “most”. “Most” Scripture does not make the man of God fully-equipped.
With all due respect, I do not think that the plain reading of the 2 Timothy 3 text you are referring to supports your interpretation. It does not relate to the quantity of Scriptures, but to the quality of Scripture.

“All Scripture is inspired by God”… should tell us that nothing that is properly called ‘Scripture’ is not in fact inspired by God and that what is not inspired by God must not be called ‘Scripture’.
We can also learn that the self-same ‘Scriptures’ are all (individually possessed of the quality that they are) profitable for the man of God to be equipped for every good work.

Sola Scriptura also relates to rules of faith and practice. So, in God’s unfolding of His plan of redemption, He provided His people with all that was both necessary and sufficient for them at that point. Nobody would argue that Abraham was not able to be equipped for the work of God because he did not have the Torah, or that Moses was unable to have saving faith because he still was looking forward to the promised Christ.

Perhaps you can clarify your point a bit. Thanks.
 
Christopher,

You might want to read an elucidation regarding the passage you cited from Irenaeus. It’s at:

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-61.htm#P7966_2192965

Irenaeus says nothing of a papacy in the passage you cited. He considered the Roman church the greatest church, one which everybody must agree with (along with the churches of Smyrna and Ephesus), but the reasons he gave for this conclusion were non-papal. He refers to Linus being appointed bishop of Rome while Peter was still alive. He also refers to Linus being appointed by the apostles (plural), not just Peter. The concept of a papacy is absent from Irenaeus. He wrote at length on subjects of doctrine and church history, but he never mentioned a papal office. All you can do is quote one passage in which the Roman church is commended as the greatest church. That is not equivalent to belief in a papacy.

Let me close by quoting some Roman Catholic scholars:

“The context of Irenaeus’ argument does not claim that the Roman Church is literally unique, the only one of its class; rather, he argues that the Roman Church is the outstanding example of its class, the class in question being apostolic sees. While he chose to speak primarily of Rome for brevity’s sake, in fact, before finishing, he also referred to Ephesus and Smyrna.” (Robert Eno, The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], p. 39)

“It is indeed understandable how this passage has baffled scholars for centuries! Those who were wont to find in it a verification of the Roman primacy were able to interpret it in that fashion. However, there is so much ambiguity here that one has to be careful of over-reading the evidence…Karl Baus’ interpretation [that Irenaeus was not referring to a papacy] seems to be the one that is more faithful to the text and does not presume to read into it a meaning which might not be there. Hence, it neither overstates nor understates Irenaeus’ position. For him [Irenaeus], it is those churches of apostolic foundation that have the greater claim to authentic teaching and doctrine. Among those, Rome, with its two apostolic founders, certainly holds an important place. However, all of the apostolic churches enjoy what he terms ‘preeminent authority’ in doctrinal matters.” (William La Due, The Chair of Saint Peter [Maryknoll, New York: Orbis Books, 1999], p. 28)

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
JasonTE said:
Christopher,

Among those, Rome, with its two apostolic founders, certainly holds an important place. However, all of the apostolic churches enjoy what he terms ‘preeminent authority’ in doctrinal matters." (William La Due, The Chair of Saint Peter [Maryknoll, New York: Orbis Books, 1999], p. 28)%between%

Taking your source at face value, it doesn’t support Protestantism. You don’t have any apostolic Churches with preeminent authority.

The Church of Rome will always have this apostolic preeminent authority. And as far as I can tell, the Church at Rome is pretty much the only apostolic church still around.

Note that this began with St. Paul. Romans 1:8 (faith known throughout the world) and Romans 16:19 (obedience known to all.) This before St. Paul even arrived in Rome. It didn’t begin with St. Irenaeus.
 
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SPH1:
Taking your source at face value, it doesn’t support Protestantism. You don’t have any apostolic Churches with preeminent authority.
I was addressing whether Irenaeus was supporting Roman Catholicism, not whether he was supporting Protestantism. I don’t claim that Irenaeus was a Protestant. He agreed with some Protestant beliefs, but he wasn’t a Protestant, nor was he a Roman Catholic.
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SPH1:
The Church of Rome will always have this apostolic preeminent authority.
So you claim. But I was discussing what Irenaeus believed, not what you believe. Irenaeus was referring to the condition of the churches in his day. Do you assume that the doctrinal correctness he refers to in Smyrna and Ephesus must always remain, just because Irenaeus referred to those churches being doctrinally correct in the second century? Apparently not, since you go on to say:
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SPH1:
And as far as I can tell, the Church at Rome is pretty much the only apostolic church still around.
Many churches claim that an apostle was in their city or claim a succession from the apostles. And they contradict each other in what they teach. The Laodicean church had the oversight of at least one apostle, yet it was in danger of being spewed from Christ’s mouth after only several decades of corruption at most (Revelation 3:16). The RCC has had many corruptions for a much longer period of time. Physical survival doesn’t prove spiritual health.
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SPH1:
Note that this began with St. Paul. Romans 1:8 (faith known throughout the world) and Romans 16:19 (obedience known to all.) This before St. Paul even arrived in Rome. It didn’t begin with St. Irenaeus.
Nothing in Romans 1:8 or 16:19 logically leads to Roman Catholicism. The Roman church was in the capital of the empire. No papacy or Roman Catholic system of doctrine is needed to explain why the Roman church would be well known. The Thessalonian church was also well known (1 Thessalonians 1:8). Nobody concludes that their bishop therefore must have been a Pope. If there had been a papacy in early church history, you probably wouldn’t need to go to passages like Matthew 16 and Romans 16 to find alleged vague allusions to it. Such an office would most likely be mentioned explicitly and frequently. It’s not mentioned at all.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org
 
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