James White's "God Breathed" Argument

[BobCatholic]

I’m wondering why any sola scripturist would accept James White’s Magisterial authority in the first place…

 

[savedsinner]

Not in the sense that it must be believed for salvation.
:

You as a protestant who takes the bible as your only authority should see the important for the establishment of the canon to be very for your own salvation.
Because all of the teachings of salvation are found in these sacred writings. Without the scriptures you would not know how to be saved.
Are you going to the book of Mormon to learn how to be saved, or to the Koran to learn how to be saved?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…Not in the sense that it must be believed for salvation…

How much of the Bible must be read before a person is saved?

 

[kaycee]

This definition excludes the Apostle Paul who did not accompany Jesus during his ministry. Saul opposed the Church and sought to have Christians arrested until his own conversion.

I assume its ok with you if the Lord can claim His own Apostles in the way He sees fit.

Certainly the other apostles fit the mold.

This definition seems to exclude Barnabas for we learn nothing from the scriptures concerning his appointment. And what about Andronicus and Junias?

recent analysis of the grammar of this text (see M. H. Burer and D. B. Wallace, “Was Junias Really an Apostle? A Reexamination of Romans 16:7,” New Testament Studies 47 [2001]:76-91) has demonstrated that this particular construction should be rendered “well known to the apostles.” There is, therefore, no support for the idea that Junias, whether male or female, was herself/himself(?) an apostle.

Third, we must take into consideration how the word “apostle” is used in the NT. It is actually used in four senses: 1) of Jesus as The Apostle; 2) of the original twelve (with Matthias having replaced Judas Iscariot); 3) of Paul and perhaps 5 or 6 others (Silas, Barnabas, James; cf. 1 Thess. 2:6; Gal. 1:19; 1 Cor. 15:7; Acts 14:4,14); a technical use of a restricted group; and 4) a general use of many individuals who were “sent out” by a church as a delegated representative or messenger (cf. 2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). If it can be demonstrated that Andronicus and (his wife?) Junias were “apostles”, and given the nature of the grammar this is highly unlikely, it would likely be only in this fourth sense.

enjoyinggodministries.com/article/men-and-women-in-ministry-was-junias-a-female-apostle

You miss the point. Public revelation did not end by apostolic fiat, and we are not told in SCRIPTURE that it has ended. Therefore, the idea that it has ended comes from some source other than the Bible.

God stopped ongoing revelation, what does that have to do with the Church? The Jews recognized that God had stopped sending prophets. Did the imagined “Moses Seat” declare revelations end?

Your pleading for a case of a church decision after the death of John? How could that be apostolic tradition, if it did happen? I assume you believe that after all the Apostles have passed, none of them are leaving the Church messages from heaven. Maybe its me, but I assume apostolic tradition requires an Apostle with a heart beat to annouce it.

I would agree that they should be accepted. However, they create difficulties for those who cling to sola scriptura.

I don’t see any difficulty here.

Really? Is it okay then, for the Mormon to believe that there are apostles living today in Salt Lake City? Is it okay for people to believe that writings other than the Bible are inspired by God or to add or subtract from the canon? How would these things affect salvation?

Don’t you think the mormons have larger theological problems than a supposed required belief in the assumption or purgatory?

Moreover, does the doctrine of sola scriptura limit itself to those things which are necessary for salvation?

Yes, everything necessary for salvation is within the written scriptures.

Since the writers of the NT were all Apostles or had direct access to their teaching, AND God authenticated them with Signs, it is not rocket science to see that once they were gone, the Canon was also closed.

Does this suggest to you that when Luke or Mark heard the Apostles preach or teach, the words spoken by those apostles may have been infallible

Sure, they were indeed written down. I suppose Apostolic words like “are you hungry?” or “my back hurts” were probably not written down. Is there any reason why supposed “important” tradition was not recorded by them?

 

[BobCatholic]

How much of the Bible must be read before a person is saved?

C’mon, you all know we don’t need more than Romans 10:9!

 

[Randy_Carson]

I assume its ok with you if the Lord can claim His own Apostles in the way He sees fit.

Of course, but you were in the process of explaining how the Bible does tell us that there are to be no more Apostles, I think. Since the criteria that you used appears to have some flaws, I’m back to thinking that, No, the Bible does not explicitly or implicitly teach the idea that there are no more apostles. Therefore, this doctrine comes from and extra-biblical source. If this source is to be believed on this point, then scriptura is not sola after all.

Certainly the other apostles fit the mold.

Most likely.

recent analysis of the grammar of this text (see M. H. Burer and D. B. Wallace, “Was Junias Really an Apostle? A Reexamination of Romans 16:7,” New Testament Studies 47 [2001]:76-91) has demonstrated that this particular construction should be rendered “well known to the apostles.” There is, therefore, no support for the idea that Junias, whether male or female, was herself/himself(?) an apostle.

I’m cool with that…I never even noticed them until a few months ago myself…

Third, we must take into consideration how the word “apostle” is used in the NT. It is actually used in four senses: 1) of Jesus as The Apostle;

Chapter and verse, please.

1. of the original twelve (with Matthias having replaced Judas Iscariot); 3) of Paul and perhaps 5 or 6 others (Silas, Barnabas, James; cf. 1 Thess. 2:6; Gal. 1:19; 1 Cor. 15:7; Acts 14:4,14); a technical use of a restricted group; and 4) a general use of many individuals who were “sent out” by a church as a delegated representative or messenger (cf. 2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). If it can be demonstrated that Andronicus and (his wife?) Junias were “apostles”, and given the nature of the grammar this is highly unlikely, it would likely be only in this fourth sense.

enjoyinggodministries.com/article/men-and-women-in-ministry-was-junias-a-female-apostle

Relevance?

God stopped ongoing revelation, what does that have to do with the Church? The Jews recognized that God had stopped sending prophets. Did the imagined “Moses Seat” declare revelations end?

God had stopped sending prophets…but clearly God had not stopped sending revelation because much more came later. However, WE believe that the Bible is complete…that there will be no more scripture. Don’t we?

Your pleading for a case of a church decision after the death of John? How could that be apostolic tradition, if it did happen? I assume you believe that after all the Apostles have passed, none of them are leaving the Church messages from heaven. Maybe its me, but I assume apostolic tradition requires an Apostle with a heart beat to annouce it.

This is incorrect. Tradition does not have to come directly from the lips of an Apostle. Tradition is the living transmission of the “faith delivered once for all to the saints.” Tradition is one mode of transmission while the scriptures are another mode. These two modes come from a single source - God’s revelation.

I don’t see any difficulty here.

Again, the difficulty arises when you accept as binding upon the consciences of all believers doctrines which are not found in scripture. Then, the “fullness” of the faith consists of the scriptures plus. The “plus” belies the “sola”

Don’t you think the mormons have larger theological problems than a supposed required belief in the assumption or purgatory?

Sure. And why do they have these problems? Because they do not have an authoritative Church which infallibly teaches the close canon of God. They have added to both the Apostles and the scriptures.

Yes, everything necessary for salvation is within the written scriptures.

If this is your definition of *sola scriptura, then *I accept it.

Happily, we can agree that the Bible is materially sufficient.

Unfortunately, I think you are also going to insist that the Bible is perspicuous also, in which I case I reject your sola scriptura. The Bible is not formally sufficient.

Since the writers of the NT were all Apostles or had direct access to their teaching, AND God authenticated them with Signs, it is not rocket science to see that once they were gone, the Canon was also closed. Sure, they were indeed written down. I suppose Apostolic words like “are you hungry?” or “my back hurts” were probably not written down. Is there any reason why supposed “important” tradition was not recorded by them?

You tell me. Does the Bible tell you whether to sprinkle, pour or immerse? Does the Bible explicitly tell you to deny baptism to infants? etc. etc.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

C’mon, you all know we don’t need more than Romans 10:9!

Ping! :doh2:

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Nobody answered this: If Sola Scriptura is true than how was the order of worship for christians arrived at during the first century?

Scripture doesn’t say what the order of the Eucharist should be and no doubt it changed as the century went on but weren’t the apostle’s words on this subject sought out?

Wouldn’t what they said have been Sacred Tradition?

If people in the church took those oral words as authoratative which of course they did–isn’t the whole Sola Scriptura nonsense silly?

 

[porthos11]

Certainly Jesus, and If He was here I would surely bow down to Him. Since He is not yet, I have his word for instruction.

How do you know that the Bible is his word?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

kaycee:

Certainly Jesus, and If He was here I would surely bow down to Him. Since He is not yet, I have his word for instruction.

porthos11:

How do you know that the Bible is his word?

Because yea though I have posted multitudinous times a link to what the Word of God actually means, no response thereto have I received. Hence obliged have I been to place yon link directly into my signature.

Kaycee believes that the Word of God is the Bible. My link shows that the Word of God is Jesus Himself.

The Word of God is personal not textual. The Word of God is for all – not just for those who can read Bibles, not just for those who can afford Bibles, not just for those with the leisure time to read or hear Bibles.

 

[kaycee]

How do you know that the Bible is his word?

The literal prophecies of the Old Testament being fulfilled in Israel’s history.

The messianic prophesies being fulfilled by Jesus.

 

[kaycee]

Because yea though I have posted multitudinous times a link to what the Word of God actually means, no response thereto have I received. Hence obliged have I been to place yon link directly into my signature.

Kaycee believes that the Word of God is the Bible. My link shows that the Word of God is Jesus Himself.

The Word of God is personal not textual. The Word of God is for all – not just for those who can read Bibles, not just for those who can afford Bibles, not just for those with the leisure time to read or hear Bibles.

Yes, certainly it is Jesus, what He said, What God speaks, and the scripture.

I assume you that Jesus is’nt talking to you out loud, nor is God.
WE DO have scripture, that is God Breathed.

 

[kaycee]

Because yea though I have posted multitudinous times a link to what the Word of God actually means, no response thereto have I received. Hence obliged have I been to place yon link directly into my signature.

Kaycee believes that the Word of God is the Bible. My link shows that the Word of God is Jesus Himself.

The Word of God is personal not textual. The Word of God is for all – not just for those who can read Bibles, not just for those who can afford Bibles, not just for those with the leisure time to read or hear Bibles.

Yes, certainly it is Jesus, what He said, What God speaks, and the Scripture.

I assume you that Jesus is’nt talking to you out loud, nor is God.
WE DO have scripture, that is God Breathed.

 

[jpaul]

One of James White’s arguments for sola scriptura is that in
2 Timothy 3:16 it refers to scripture as “God Breathed.” and according to him, since the church, and sacred tradition, are not called God Breathed in scripture, therefore he concludes that only scripture is God Breathed.

But the problem with this is that the church IS called God Breathed

"(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
And when he had said this, **he breathed on them **and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.” (John 20:21-22)

here we see jesus (who is God) breathing on the diciples and commissioning them. It is at this point that we beleive that the church officially began and christ is breathing into the apostles his own authority.

brother 6glargento,

peace and all-good!

All we need to do is ignore Dr. James White and his heretical teaching. It’s the best biblical advice we have. Saint Paul said, “But there is no other. Some who wish to alter the gospel of Christ must have confused you. For even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel not in accord with the one we delivered to you, let a curse be upon him!” (Gal. 1: 7-8).

Sola scriptura is not biblical. It was never taught by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the apostles. It is a protestant heretical teaching that undermines the teaching authority (of the Catholic Church) that was build by our Lord Jesus Christ on Peter (Cephas) and given the task of evangelization (Mt. 16:18; Jn 1: 42; Mt. 28:19).

The Roman Catholic Church alone is “God’s household, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of truth.” (1 Tm 3:15). There is no other, for man’s duty is to obey the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to compete with our Lord Jesus Christ by building “man’s” churches.

Ave Maria!

jpaul

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Yes, certainly it is Jesus, what He said, What God speaks, and the scripture. I assume you that Jesus is’nt talking to you out loud, nor is God. WE DO have scripture, that is God Breathed.

Even if this were true, and you have not proven that it is true, then you still insist on equivocating on the Word of God to mean Scripture.

You are at one time conceding that Jesus is the Word of God and denying that Jesus is the Word of God.

If Jesus is the Word of God then how can Scripture be the Word of God?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The literal prophecies of the Old Testament being fulfilled in Israel’s history.

The messianic prophesies being fulfilled by Jesus.

The question was how do you know – not what is your opinion.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Kaycee: If you really believe in God-breathed then go confess your sins to a Catholic priest, a successor to the disciples, who Jesus gave the power and authority to forgive and retain sin.

If you don’t believe the Inerrant word of God that Jesus BREATHED on the disciples and gave them that power–please spare us anymore God-breathed–whenever it suits you arguments!

 

[kaycee]

Even if this were true, and you have not proven that it is true, then you still insist on equivocating on the Word of God to mean Scripture.

You are at one time conceding that Jesus is the Word of God and denying that Jesus is the Word of God.

If Jesus is the Word of God then how can Scripture be the Word of God?

I never said Jesus is not the Word of God. I think you need to stop ascribing false beliefs to me and other protestants.

Jesus is the Word incarnate. Jesus inspired the NT writers.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

kaycee:

I never said Jesus is not the Word of God. I think you need to stop ascribing false beliefs to me and other protestants.

kaycee some clarity and consistency in how you use the term ‘Word of God’ would help immensely in avoiding ‘misunderstandings.’ Agreed?

kaycee:

Jesus is the Word incarnate.

You have now become eminently quotable. (But, whoah! Hold up thar, Ani Ibi! Ask him what he means by ‘incarnate’: where is Jesus’s incarnation?)

OK, kaycee, where is Jesus’s incarnation?

kaycee:

Jesus inspired the NT writers.

And?

 

[kaycee]

The question was how do you know – not what is your opinion.

That is one way I know!

I have examined all the prophecies and Jesus is the only one close to fulfilling them.

The Early Church heard Jesus speaking and testified to the accuracy of the NT writings.