J
jessaka
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I remember back in 1999 or so when the Time Magazine or Newsweek carried an article on the pope saying that there is no hell. I cut it out and kept it for many years. So I don’t think that that person was lying.
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jessaka
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cbc.ca/news/story/1999/07/29/nf_nohell990729.html
this comes from cbs news, not a christian blog.
but since i can’t find the real transcripe of what he said, i can only believe that maybe the papers and news magazines got it wrong. either way, i can say that i don’t believe in a literal hell and never will because i do not believe that God is unjust. i could never believe that about an all loving God. and it doesn’t matter if you say that we put ourselves in hell, because if there is a literal hell, someone had to create it, and that would be God. it is we humans that actually make up the belief in hell because we desire people to be punished. it is humans who go to war, etc. this is not in God’s heart.
this comes from cbs news, not a christian blog.
but since i can’t find the real transcripe of what he said, i can only believe that maybe the papers and news magazines got it wrong. either way, i can say that i don’t believe in a literal hell and never will because i do not believe that God is unjust. i could never believe that about an all loving God. and it doesn’t matter if you say that we put ourselves in hell, because if there is a literal hell, someone had to create it, and that would be God. it is we humans that actually make up the belief in hell because we desire people to be punished. it is humans who go to war, etc. this is not in God’s heart.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
You mean no hell in the sense that hell is a physical place? Of course “hell” is a state, but it also has to be a physical place as well, since the bodies of both the righteous and unrighteous will be raised. The righteous will then go to a physical paradise earth where God will tabernacle among them. But where do the bodies of the unrighteous go?I remember back in 1999 or so when the Time Magazine or Newsweek carried an article on the pope saying that there is no hell. I cut it out and kept it for many years. So I don’t think that that person was lying.
It can be said that the secular media never report what the pope really means. I don’t know since I haven’t seen the article.
J
jessaka
Guest
where can i get a transcript of this speech so i can see for myself:
During his weekly address to the general audience of 8,500 people at the Vatican on July **28, 1999, **Pope John Paul II rejected the reality of a physical, literal hell as a place of eternal fire and torment. Rather, the pope said hell is separation, even in this life, from the joyful communion with God. According to an official Vatican transcript of the pope’s speech, Pope John Paul II noted that the Scriptural references to hell and the images portrayed by Scripture are only symbolic and figurative of “the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. " He added, “Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” He said hell is “a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life.” Concerning the concept of eternal damnation, the pope said, “Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever.” The pope also added, “The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair.” Rather, he stated, it is a reminder of the freedom found in Christ.”
And you must remember that fire is material just as the body, and so fire would destroy the body; it could not live forever burning and suffering. And for what purpose?
During his weekly address to the general audience of 8,500 people at the Vatican on July **28, 1999, **Pope John Paul II rejected the reality of a physical, literal hell as a place of eternal fire and torment. Rather, the pope said hell is separation, even in this life, from the joyful communion with God. According to an official Vatican transcript of the pope’s speech, Pope John Paul II noted that the Scriptural references to hell and the images portrayed by Scripture are only symbolic and figurative of “the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. " He added, “Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” He said hell is “a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life.” Concerning the concept of eternal damnation, the pope said, “Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever.” The pope also added, “The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair.” Rather, he stated, it is a reminder of the freedom found in Christ.”
And you must remember that fire is material just as the body, and so fire would destroy the body; it could not live forever burning and suffering. And for what purpose?
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mackbrislawn
Guest
I looked at that link, and if it is the actual cbc new story, then it is sensationalized, as is typical of such items. I don’t see anything really new in it. “Hell” is a place of torment of the soul cut off from God. Much of the article contains not what the pope said, but what somebody else said about their opinion of heaven and hell. No, heaven isn’t somewhere in the clouds, heaven according to the church and scripture has always been a new earth.
I am not aware of dogmatic teachings of the church on this, so there is room for opinion. The pope himself may have his own opinions which may differ from other Catholics.
Remember, opinions are opinions. They are like noses, everybody has one. Until…there is a dogmatic statement, then opinions cease.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
It seems that in the bible sometimes fire consumes and sometimes not. In Rev 20:9, “…But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.” Rev 20:10 goes on to say, “And the devil, their seducer, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulpher, where the beast and false prophet had been flung, there to be tormented day and night forever.”And you must remember that fire is material just as the body, and so fire would destroy the body; it could not live forever burning and suffering. And for what purpose?
Yes, you would think the fire would go out after awhile, when all the bodies were burnt up. But Mark 9:48 says “…thrown into Gehenna where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Yes, for what purpose? What is your opinion?
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jessaka
Guest
There basically is no purpose, not even a loving one, of allowing a person to be in a hellish fire that burns this person for eternity. On the level of physics it is not possible. Bodies burn even if they were part spirit, which I think they are anyway. These scriptures are allegorial.
““There was a rich man* who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. 20And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,i 21who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. 22When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23and from the netherworld,* where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ 25Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.j 26Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’ 27He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house.”
Do you think that a man can see heaven, well, it could have been a vision. But if this were real, he would be asking for more than a drop of water that wouldn’t make it to his lips anyway.
and this one: Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil will be cast into “the lake of fire” and “tormented day and night for ever and ever.” IF the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, would not God then have to preserve him alive in order for eternal torturing to take place? Yet in the book of Hebrews at 2:14, the Bible says Jesus will “destroy him” then inand another version phrases it as “bring to nothing.”
Then John at 1Jo 4:8, we know God is love. Is it logicial then for one to think that a crime, even though serious would cause a loving God to torture a person endlessly? No, that would be contradictory. (Or allow a person to be tortured endlessly). People who torture like this on earth are called Heineous. Think of Hitler and how he is viewed by the masses. He would have been viewed the same had he even put just criminals in the fires. And yet they died, it wasn’t endless, and yet we still think of him as one the most evil man who ever lived. To think that God would do the same is to put him also at the level of a Hitler, and I don’t believe He ever cold be. He has all power, so he could certainly choose a more human way to deal with those who are evil. How about love, as it conquerors all?
and
““There was a rich man* who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. 20And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,i 21who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. 22When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23and from the netherworld,* where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ 25Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.j 26Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’ 27He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house.”
- Can people in heaven see those in hell and vs?
- Would a drop of water quinch his thrist?
Do you think that a man can see heaven, well, it could have been a vision. But if this were real, he would be asking for more than a drop of water that wouldn’t make it to his lips anyway.
and this one: Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil will be cast into “the lake of fire” and “tormented day and night for ever and ever.” IF the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, would not God then have to preserve him alive in order for eternal torturing to take place? Yet in the book of Hebrews at 2:14, the Bible says Jesus will “destroy him” then inand another version phrases it as “bring to nothing.”
Then John at 1Jo 4:8, we know God is love. Is it logicial then for one to think that a crime, even though serious would cause a loving God to torture a person endlessly? No, that would be contradictory. (Or allow a person to be tortured endlessly). People who torture like this on earth are called Heineous. Think of Hitler and how he is viewed by the masses. He would have been viewed the same had he even put just criminals in the fires. And yet they died, it wasn’t endless, and yet we still think of him as one the most evil man who ever lived. To think that God would do the same is to put him also at the level of a Hitler, and I don’t believe He ever cold be. He has all power, so he could certainly choose a more human way to deal with those who are evil. How about love, as it conquerors all?
and
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jessaka
Guest
I did not know that Catholics believed that the righteous will go to a physical paradise earth. That was a JW belief. Perhaps the unrighteous go to another earth where life isn’t so great for them. You can even look here on earth and see how horrible some lifes are. There are people being tortured in prisons --that is hellish, killed in battle, turned into slaves and beaten, and I could go on.You mean no hell in the sense that hell is a physical place? Of course “hell” is a state, but it also has to be a physical place as well, since the bodies of both the righteous and unrighteous will be raised. The righteous will then go to a physical paradise earth where God will tabernacle among them. But where do the bodies of the unrighteous go?
It can be said that the secular media never report what the pope really means. I don’t know since I haven’t seen the article.
Heaven and Hell can be on this earth, and there could still be better heavens and worse hells. But I can’t imagine that these people in bad situations would not be given changes to turn to God.
And actually the word Hades has always been translated as hell, as has Sheol. The Jews didn’t believe in a hell, at least that is what a rabbi told me. And they wrote the Old Testament. He stated that they tought it was a watery deep. The KJV had a margin that translated hades and sheol and the grave. Hades has similarities to the Old Testament term, Sheol as “the place of the dead”. Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually. Then there was Gehenna which refers to the “Valley of Hinnon”, which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.
As I said, I think these are just spiritual conditions and some people can live very hellish lifes
Also similar to the Greek Hades, in the Hebrew afterlife no distinction was made between the treatment of the just and the unjust after death. Instead, rewards and punishments were meted out in the present life, and in the covenant “contract” Yahweh promised to do just that.
here is one place where the body is destroyed in hell: Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. so the body is tortured forever here.
—Matthew 10:28
Here is another: They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
—2 Thessalonians 1:9
Here is another that says the dead are in hell: Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
P
Phyllo
Guest
Hi,
There has been some discussion here about what JP2 had to say about Hell.
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
I hope this helps.
God Bless
There has been some discussion here about what JP2 had to say about Hell.
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
I hope this helps.
God Bless
C
CoRedeemer
Guest
Thanks Phyllo, I read that article and it has cleared things a lot…Hi,
There has been some discussion here about what JP2 had to say about Hell.
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
I hope this helps.
God Bless
I like how the former Pope John Paul II said, "The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
The Pope doesn’t reject the biblical images of hell, the Pope was refering to those who improperly use biblical images which only creates anxiety, despair, paranoia, or it even causes immobility to do anything about sin. Yet, he was only concentrating or refering to the need of knowing why people choose hell, this is more important than images. Moreover, it isn’t sin but mortal sin which is the cause and the reason for a person’ seperation from God eternally.
He says, “Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thes 1:9).
We shouldn’t fear hell. Actually we should all the more confidently feel that we will be saved though Jesus Christ, his body, which is the church. Well, Jesus gave us his body, the church, in order to lead us away from sin and to be with Him eternally, God. Well, this calls for rejoicing as St. Paul says in Colossians 1:24, “At present I rejoice when I suffer for you; I compete in my own flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, which is the church.” I am trying very hard to live and immitate these words personally, in my own life. Suffering is unbearable if it is done without a good reason. Yeah, but what great joy there is in suffering for others, in offering up penace, and fasting, and vigils, prayers, and even alms giving for sinners. Suffering is good when we offer it up and know how to offer it up. This calls for faith.
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T_More
Guest
Jessaka, is there anything man can do in a short 70 years that would merit him/her to an eternity in heaven?Co-Redeemer, How do you know whether to take these passages on hell literally? Christiainity is not the only religion that teaches hell, so do Hindus and Buddhists, but their hells are not permanent. So you can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint it to my having a problem with Jesus. My problem is I don’t take it literally. I felt God’s Presence God as Love, and a loving God does not put people in a burning hell for eternity to suffer for what little they did in one lifetime. And I say little because nothing man does in his 70 years is bad enough to have him burn for eternity.
Always remember, Jessaka. God is merciful. People that end up in hell go there because they want to, not because God wants them to. He will not force anyone to serve Him.
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Phyllo
Guest
Thanks Phyllo, I read that article and it has cleared things a lot…
I am glad that you found the article helpful.
How can I explain to a JW that hell separates us from God , and we know it and that is why it is hell, when they say that we cannot survive without God?
How can I explain to her that if you are annihilated you can’t realize that you are being punished?
They seem to refuse to understand that the spirit/soul never dies. They take soul to just mean the material body and the spirit goes back to God’s memory.
What about all those souls/spirits under the alter in Revaluations?
Their teachings boggle the mind and to their credit they stand firm.
By the way I am enjoying all your posts. I should know so much. Thanks.
God Bless
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
There basically is no purpose, not even a loving one, of allowing a person to be in a hellish fire that burns this person for eternity. On the level of physics it is not possible. Bodies burn even if they were part spirit, which I think they are anyway. These scriptures are allegorial.
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jessaka
Guest
On the first question. No.Jessaka, is there anything man can do in a short 70 years that would merit him/her to an eternity in heaven?
Always remember, Jessaka. God is merciful. People that end up in hell go there because they want to, not because God wants them to. He will not force anyone to serve Him.
Second Question: No one wants to go to hell. Why would anyone chose it?
J
jessaka
Guest
jessaka;9270915:
This is because our understanding of God has evolved. In the OT God was unjust. If one woman was raped the entire village was killed by God’s people.No, our feelings today don’t allow for all that. In the ancient past things were more rough and tumble, so people had an easier time accepting it. But even then interpreters struggled with the seeming inconsistency with a loving God and endless torment.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
I did not know that Catholics believed that the righteous will go to a physical paradise earth. That was a JW belief. Perhaps the unrighteous go to another earth where life isn’t so great for them.
J
jessaka
Guest
jessaka;9271012:
Where the damned bodies go, you may be right; they may go to another non-paradise earth, away from God.You know, a JW came to my door, who was an ex-Catholic, and he didn’t realize that either! But it’s true. This teaching applies to orthodox Protestants as well as Catholics. Maybe individual Catholics and Protestants don’t remember what they were taught because the emphasis is too much on “going to heaven when we die” which is correct, but that is only until the resurrection. After that souls and bodies are re-united so heaven and hell need to be physical places for bodies to be. ‘Paradise earth’ really isn’t a term Catholics use but I used it because it is something JW’s understand. Same difference. No, the difference for Catholics and Protestants as opposed to JW’s is that paradise earth includes heaven. After the resurrection and last judgment, heaven will descend to earth, and so all the saved will be with God and Jesus.
You are confusing me here. I see nowhere in the Bible where heaven is on earth, unless heaven is within a person, just as hell can be within a person. I don’t believe that God is going to create a New Earth and people it like the JWs believe. Other than this I didn’t understand what you were trying to say.
I have no idea what happens to mankind when they die. I do believe that life continues forever, that the soul is immortal. I don’t believe in a fiery hell. I do believe in reincarnation. In that way I can agree with your comment on suffering on earth purifies us. Reincarnation can be your purgatory. I also believe in grace and that all will eventually be saved. But basically we really DO NOT KNOW. All we know is that God loves us all, and that we can trust in Him. I don’t live my life thinking that I want ot go to heaven or prevent myself from going to hell, whatever those may be. I just want to be close to God in this life.
You’re entirely right. All this terrible stuff happens. Now, is there a way to turn it to our advantage? In the Catholic system there is, although not in the Protestant. Catholics read the verses in the bible that refer to suffering, and the verse where Jesus says to take up your cross and follow Him. These verses mean suffering can have value in our further sanctification. Catholics used to be taught to “offer our sufferings up to God.” Now, here is where purgatory comes in. Instead of hell on earth, it is better to say purgatory on earth. The idea is that our sufferings here in this life help cleanse us for the after life. Purgatory cleanses us for heaven, since “nothing unclean can enter there.” There is an after life purgatory, but also a this life purgatory, where our earthly sufferings help cleanse us.
No, they wouldn’t since “hell” is a Christian revelation. A New Testament revelation and not an Old Testament revelation.
So you are saying that the old testament word, sheol, cannot be translated as hades or hell?
Yes, Revelation 20:13, “The sea gave up its dead.”
This isn’t what the rabbi was talking about because he hadn’t read Revelations. He was talking about the Old Testment word sheol which they thought could mean the watery deep. They didn’t know.
The afterlife was very vague in the Old Testament. Correct, rewards and punishments were more for this life. The Sadducees didn’t even believe in a resurrection.
P
Phyllo
Guest
People choose it by not choosing God. We need to believe what is taught in the NT through the teachings of the Catholic church and Tradition. We need to follow Jesus example. God gives us free will to choose Him or not.On the first question. No.
Second Question: No one wants to go to hell. Why would anyone chose it?
I think shoel in the OT means where the “body” goes after death and that is the grave.
There is no reincarnation. Our soul/spirit is immortal and is in only one body and that is the one we have now. It will not be reincarnated.The soul/spirit will be united to our bodies when Jesus comes the second time . At that time we will get the glorified body that Jesus has.
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mackbrislawn
Guest
You’re confusing me here. I see nowhere in the Bible where heaven is on earth…I don’t believe that God is going to create a New Earth and people it like the JW’s believe. Other that this I didn’t understand what you were trying to say.
Okay. The biblical reference is Revelation 21:1 and following: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a great voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling of god is with men. He will dwell with them and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them.” The remainder of chapter 21 and chapter 22 goes on to describe the new heaven more fully. That’s why it is said heaven comes down to earth. “His servants shall see His face…” Rev 22:4. Catholics call this the beatific vision.
Note that is occurs after the second coming, the resurrection, and the last judgment.
Revelation and scripture were given to us to answer the question of what happens when we die. The religions of Jews and Christians do not teach the idea of reincarnation, that is, the idea our soul goes into another person or animal when the current host dies. Judaism is much more vague on the afterlife; Christianity is more specific. Eternal bliss with God, or torment away from God. So the purpose the the Christian religion is to find eternal bliss with God. You have stated a Catholic principle very well: I just want to be close to God. Both in this life and the next. Catholics believe the closer your are to God in this life, the closer you will be to God in the next.I have no idea what happens to mankind when they die. I do believe that life continues forever, that the soul is immortal. I don’t believe in a fiery hell. I do believe in reincarnation. In that way I can agree with your comment on suffering on earth purifies us. Reincarnation can be your purgatory. I also believe in grace and that all will eventually be saved. But basically we do not know. All we know is that God loves us all, and that we can trust in Him. I don’t live my life thinking that I want to go to heaven or prevent myself from going to hell, whatever those may be. I just want to be close to God in this life.
No, they wouldn’t since “hell” is a Christian revelation. A New Testament revelation and not an Old Testament revelation.I put “hell” in quotes because I don’t know what that word means. It’s confusing because it seems to be used in different ways. I myself think that it should not be used at all. Anyway, by “hell” is meant the lake of fire. When some translations say Jesus went down to hell, it doesn’t mean the lake of fire. The Hebrew word, sheol, is translated into Greek as hades. Meaning a place of the dead. But not too clearly defined. When Christians say “go to hell,” they mean the lake of fire, of eternal torment, not Hades nor Sheol.So, you are sayng that the old testament word, sheol, cannot be translated as hades or hell?
Yes, Revelation 20:13, “The sea gave up its dead.”Yes. Let’s change Rev 20:13 to read, “The watery deep gave up its dead.” The full verse would read, “The watery deep gave up its dead, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.” This simply means that by whatever means you want to describe where the dead come from, they all rise for judgment.This isn’t what the rabbi was talking about because he hadn’t read Revelations. He was talking about the OId Testament word sheol which they thought could mean the watery deep. They didn’t know.
J
jessaka
Guest
That is true, but it goes against a God of Love. In Love there is no fear, terror. Just LOVE
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