Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

[Regardless]

… A council was declared to affirm the Bible Canon, and from this point forward everyone knew without a doubt what books were inspired by God.

P.S. I hope we can continue our Private Message, Regardless. Waiting on you brother!

Thanks for your reply. Very thought provoking.
(Sorry - trying to keep up with all these messages and replies.)

 

[Regardless]

…
What would be tough to distinguish at times is wheat vs weeds. This entails God’s Organization never vanished, and that the wheat was at least a significant minority, if not majority. Otherwise, how does the Gospel really testify that Jesus and God are really in control? …

I read your entire post carefully. I really liked that comment!
Thanks.

 

[Regardless]

…
A more pertinent question is: in the process of these councils inventing apostate doctrines, why did they preserve the Bible at all? True apostate Christendom should have destroyed all manuscripts and corrupted all translations. Yet apostate Christendom preserved the manuscripts and were the ones making hand-copies all these centuries! Not one scholar will deny this…

Don’t get me wrong. I’m sure even ones who have deviated from the truth rarely do it on purpose.
(as an extreme example: I bet many in the inquisition approving of torture - thought they were doing God’s will. “The end justifies the means” perhaps?)

So even ones who deviated form the truth would have had political, or popular, or misguided, or selfish reasons - but probably never: “I think I’ll work for Satan against God.”

There is a scripture (I can’t find it right now sorry) where Jesus said to his disciples: “the day will come when those that kill you will imagine they are doing a sacred service for God.”
Again - refer matt 7:21: “But we did all this good for you Lord!” - Jesus: “Get away from me!”

There are thousands of religions that call themselves Christian. I’m sure 95% are sincere in their belief they are true Christians. But logically they can’t all have the full truth.

 

[Regardless]

Re-reading this wheat and weeds parable of Jesus reminded me of another prophecy. I had never really taken notice of that bit about at the Wheat class standing out like the sun in the last days.)

It made me think of Isaiah 2:2-4. Because there we see people from all nations streaming into Jehovah’s worship, and being taught about him. Notice : “at the time of the end!”
Do we see a parallel here?

Are these the ones that have not deviated (like the weeds) standing out and attracting crowds to the truth?

And then it’s odd mention has been made (in recent posts) of the early Christians stand on war. Because verse 4 shows these ones would “learn war no more!” Turning back to one of the things Jesus disciples were known for! - Amazing huh?

Remember: At Matthew 7:21 Jesus highlighted “many” would come to him at the end and effectively say: “we are Christians doing your will!” and would be rejected. (Wheat and weeds) So it’s important we get this right!

And this talk of the “end” takes us to Matthew 24. Where Jesus gave his disciples a sign of what this time of the end would be like (mainly bad stuff) but verse 14 says the “good news” would be preached to all nations (like in Isaiah) just before the “end” comes!

So if these prophecies are true (and I believe they are) we can take comfort in some facts.

1. When the end of the system is near, the “truth” (from among the thousands of religions) would become obvious! – it would stand out somehow!
2. One of the marks that would make it stand out would be it’s refusal to be involved in war. (that must narrow the playing field to a handful)
3. And we wouldn’t even need to go hunting for it! – Jesus would make sure it came to us! A massive preaching work would be underway all around the world! How convenient is that?

So when you think the conditions match what Jesus described in Matthew 24 = watch out for some group – approaching you and trying to show you what the early Christians taught. (And to check – ask them if they go to war, and if people are joining them from all nations)

When you spot the “wheat” (they will stand out like the sun apparently) – let us all know so we can take advantage of what Jesus has set in action! We don’t want to be rejected by him at the end!

 

[CoRedeemer]

Imagine, Regardless, that Muslims are invading New Zealand and imagine that 98 percent of the Population of the world are members of the Jehovah’s Witness, and because they do not believe in joining the Army, they would be sitting ducks!

So you wouldn’t pick-up a weapon to defend your loved ones!

If you study what has happened in the middle east, europe, and west Asia, you will see that the Muslims were barbaric in their conquest for converting the whole entire world to Islam. So you are saying that Christians had no right to fight against barbarians?

Well, image if somebody has come to rape your mother, so you would just stand back and watch it all happen and wouldn’t think to pick up a gun or a knife to stop the rapist from hurting your loved ones or your sister?

What kind of religion is that!

Jesus said, “If someone slaps on your right cheek, offer him your left cheek too!” So, if somebody is raping your mother and offer them your sister as well!" Did Jesus say this? I think he never said this!

So your religion tells you guys to sit back before barbarianistic rapist and murderers!

Here’s a little piece of advice: The next time you pray, how about you show gratitude and respect for those Catholics in the time of Islamic take over of the western world.

You seriously don’t know what you are talking about. What would you do if you were one of the early Christians and had many sisters and a mother, and pagan barbarians have come to your little primitive village and are ready to rape them all and butcher them, so you would just sit back and say, “Hey, war is not good, so I won’t defend!”

Yeah right! So you are saying that Catholics had no right to fight off the rodents of paganism, the rapists, and the barbarianism of islam?

If it wasn’t for Catholics fighting against Islam and against pagan barbarianism, you and I wouldn’t be here today. So show some respect to the Catholic Church.

You don’t know what you are talking about!

 

[Regardless]

Imagine, Regardless, that Muslims are invading New Zealand and imagine that 98 percent of the Population of the world are members of the Jehovah’s Witness, and because they do not believe in joining the Army, they would be sitting ducks!..:

If 98% of the worlds population were Jehovah’s witnesses there would be no wars.
The 2% that are still Muslim can peacefully live among us and be treated as neighbours.
(But of course that’s just nit-picking and side-stepping your question.)

If you don’t mind – I will put together a proper answer when I have time.

Though I will say: - There is a difference between being a pacifist and being neutral.
Pacifists refuse violence under any circumstances.

JW’s are not pacifists.

 

[Regardless]

…
So your religion tells you guys to sit back before barbarianistic rapist and murderers!
…:

I started writing a response – but it got too long and complicated.
I will instead quote some official Jehovah’s Witness publications on the subject instead to show their stand, I have underlined some bits especially relevant:

“Jesus had given his disciples counsel: “You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ However, I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.” (Mt 5:38, 39) Here Jesus was not teaching pacifism or denying the right of self-defense from bodily harm, but he was teaching that a Christian does not need to pay back blow for blow, retaliating, taking vengeance. … This is in harmony with the statements of the apostles, giving further emphasis to this principle.—Ro 12:17-21; 1Pe 3:9. (Insight on the scriptures -1 pg 429)”

I hope that answers the “If your mother was being attacked” scenario.
If someone personally attacked me or someone defenseless I might have no choice but resort to violence as far as was necessary.

 

[Regardless]

…
Yeah right! So you are saying that Catholics had no right to fight off the rodents of paganism, the rapists, and the barbarianism of islam?
…:

But as for going to war:

*The Christians’ commission was to preach the good news. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20) They understood that they had no commission from God to wage war against his enemies, to act as God’s executioners, as it were. (Matthew 5:9; Romans 12:17-21) Only when so-called Christians ‘depart far from the teaching of Christ,’ as Butler stated, do they get enmeshed in the wars of the nations. Then the clergy bless armies and pray for victory, often on both sides of a conflict. (Compare John 17:16; 18:36.)
…
Totally Opposed to War?
Were ‘the ancient Christian doctrine and the whole spirit of the Gospel’ really pacifist, however? Could early Christians truly be described as pacifists, as defined previously? No! Why not? For one thing, they recognized God’s right to wage war. (Exodus 14:13, 14; 15:1-4; Joshua 10:14; Isaiah 30:30-32) Besides that, they never disputed God’s right to authorize ancient Israel to fight for him when that nation served as his sole instrument on earth.—Psalm 144:1; Acts 7:45; Hebrews 11:32-34.

God has not only a right but also an obligation on the basis of justice to remove wicked people from the earth. Many evildoers will never respond to God’s patient appeals to them to mend their ways. (Isaiah 45:22; Matthew 7:13, 14) God’s toleration of evil has limits. (Isaiah 61:2; Acts 17:30) …
Awake 1997 5/8 pg 22.*

That is how the JW’s view it, and some of the scriptures that use to justify their stand.

 

[CoRedeemer]

If 98% of the worlds population were Jehovah’s witnesses there would be no wars.
The 2% that are still Muslim can peacefully live among us and be treated as neighbours.

I find it hard to believe when you said, “The 2% that are still Muslims can peacefully live among us and be treated as neigbours.” You must remember that Islam started with 0.1%percent. That’s quite a small number. Yet, look at what they did (rapidly) in a matter of 50 years. Well, their little 0.1 % grew so fast. Instead of 0.1% they rose within 50 years to 5 percent and increasing. Islam does very well seeking the conversions of non-Muslims with the sword under peoples throats. This is seen in history and I’m not making this up.

The Catholic Church definitely had a perfect right to start the inquisition in most European countries. And this is why?

Consider first the great danger Turks and Muslims opposed for Europe and Christianity in the 16 Century. It was the greatest threat to Christianity! Yet, who were the ones blindly conspirating with the Turks and Muslim when they were snatching bit by bit Christian-Catholic countries from the south. It was the Protestants who were co-operating with the Turks and Muslim in hope that they would destroy the Catholic Church. But when the Turks started to come closer and closer at their door stop of Germany and Austria, things started to change. In fact, Martin Luther began to even feel a little worried, so he wrote a pamphlet called, “On the war against the Turks,” calling all Germans to resist the Ottoman invasion of Europe, since Vienna was about to come crashing down because of the Turks.

Why and what was wrong with Vienna falling into the Ottoman hands? Isn’t this a good thing, besides considering that Protestants were omitting and failing to give a hand to Catholics on every side of Europe, since they found their religions relatively almost the same. They agreed on Iconoclasm, they agreed on rejection of marriage as a sacrament, they agree on rejection of monastic orders, they agree on fundamentalism.

But wait there’s more! Queen Elisabeth I, was collaborating with Muslim-Morrocans in the northen Africa, in order to capture Spain. These Muslim Morrocans were seeking in exchange weapons, tin, amunition, in order to fight against Spain, France, Portugal, and rest of Europe. But in return England was seeking in ex-change sugar, land, and etcetera. Her disobedience threatened Christianity!!! It seemed that Christianity was about to be wiped off from the face of the earth, because “a nation that divides itself will not last. And Christ that is divided will not last!”

This division gave the Turks or the Muslims an advantage to Islamisize Europe even till this day. It also gave them a head start since those who were called to protect Christianity, found a great advantage to weaken the church. Yet, when they sought the weakening of the Catholic Church, they began to feel weakened and threatened themselves

One has to ask themselves, "Why was Queen Elizabeth I, collaborating with Muslims?

Well, first of all she hated the Catholic Church too, just like her daddy (Henry VIII).

Secondly, she knew that the Cathlic Church was trying hard to fight off Muslims on eary corner of Europe. But she know also that Protestantism was keeping the church too busy, so she saw an advantage to strike and conspire against Christianity, the Catholic countries of europe, because she wanted more and more land and power over religion.

So, in order to re-strengthen Europe - Christianity, and in order to re-inforce europe, and in order to fight off Islamisation of Europe, the Church needed to establish the inquisition to re-inforce, to protect Christianity, in order to elimate even those Christians who were endangering Christianity with their sects and heresies.

Had Martin Luther, and Queen Elisabeth I, and many other former catholics not sought the destruction of the Catholic Church and persicuted it, they would have made the Catholic Church even stronger for her mission towards preaching and evangelizing non catholic countries.

If you want to learn more about how Protestantism gave a great advantage to Islam, even till this day, then click: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam

The reformation itself had threatened Christianity were it not for the Catholic Church and for the inquisition.

God bless

 

[Regardless]

My dear CoRedeemer. I have been thinking about your post. (and now I see another has arrived)
Unfortunately my defending Jehovah’s Witnesses stand on neutrality invariably contrasts our stand with others. It is obviously a passionate topic for many – and please believe – I am not trying to offend people by our stand.

I see you have since included lots of historical conflicts from the turbulent middle ages – mainly Christendom vs Islam. These were terrible conflicts with atrocities on both sides. And I have heard both sides claiming self defence in justification. Complicated.

But in your first post you gave some hypothetical examples of terrible and evil forces invading my country, bent on death and evil, and you asked: “Wouldn’t you defend yourself?”

I can’t think of any wars in the last century that were nearly as simple as the hypothetical scenarios you site. (It’s never good vs Evil like in Star wars )
Even WW2 was much more complicated than “bad people fighting good”.

So to use those examples as why Christians should be able to fight in war is a bit like saying: “We should be able to speed in our cars because it might be an emergency.”
Or “we should be able to steal because our family might be starving”.

Even in WW2 – the armies of the terrible Nazi regieme, (and it’s Italian, Hungarian and Romanian allies) - were made up mainly of church going Christians who thought and were told by their government or their church or their conscience that they were doing the right thing –
If you asked them at the time why they were fighting you would have got answers like -“I’m Fighting for my country” or “fighting godless communisim” or “defending my family” or “obeying my fuhreh” or “doing what my bishop says is God’s will”.
But in hindsight…

The world run by humans is a terrible unjust thing – and full of ideas and movements that seem good or noble at the time – but turn out to be monstrous.
No wonder Jesus taught his followers to pray for God’s kingdom to come, and his will to be dome on earth.
I can’t see a better stand than Jesus command – “they are no part of the world” – No wonder he rejected utterly attempts to get him involved in politics.

The JW’s in Germany who refused to go to war, were put in camps and all means were tried to make them abandon their faith and fight or support the war – Here is a link from the United states holocaust museum about them
ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005394

I think their stand the best and most in line with Christ – and if all Christians had the same stand – there would have been no war.

 

[djd83]

But you know, Catholic priests were also imprisoned under the Nazi regime.

So if you were an American JW and knew that the Nazis were killing off the Jews, you would just sit back and let them die?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Don’t get me wrong. I’m sure even ones who have deviated from the truth rarely do it on purpose.

Your post greatly undermines the idea that early apostate Christianity removed the word Jehovah from the Bible then. Where is the logic in doing something as bad as removing “Jehovah” from the New Testament and yet not tampering with anything else? Surely there would be other “changes,” even if well intentioned, that would have caused serious corruption to the Biblical manuscripts.

The very idea that apostate Christianity was God’s chosen vessel to preserve ancient manuscripts is absurd. That’s why I asked: how corrupt was the KJV that they needed to come out with NWT 30 years later?

Re-reading this wheat and weeds parable of Jesus reminded me of another prophecy. I had never really taken notice of that bit about at the Wheat class standing out like the sun in the last days.)

This is a bit inaccurate:41The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness,42and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.43At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Notice the timing here. You are saying the Wheat will “shine like the sun” a few years before the Son sends the angels to “reap”. The actual text says they will shine after the harvest.

You are mistakenly reading this to say the Wheat wont be noticeable for 1800 years, and in the closing days of history will suddenly shine and prove themselves to the world. That’s not really what the text says. This does bring us back to the question though of: Can you name at least 5 Christians who lived between 100AD and 1800AD?

The term “last days” (does not appear in the Wheat parable) is a tricky one, and many people don’t understand it. The term “last days” does not mean the final few days before the end of the world. Rather, the term “last days” means the ‘era’ when Jesus first came up until the very end. If you look at the Greek term “last days,” you will see the “Last Days” clearly refers to when Jesus was born (Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20), the time of Pentecost (Acts 2:17), and 1st Century A.D. Christians being warned to remain holy (James 5:3; 2 Peter 3:3; 2 Timothy 3:1; 1 John 2:18; Jude 1:18, all saying the same thing).

 

[CoRedeemer]

What do you think, Regardless, about John 14:12-13? Has this been occuring throughout the centuries?

Can you name me at least a few people within the 100 AD to this day 21 century, excluding the Acts of the Apostles who have done greater works than Jesus? Because I can name more than 60 people and more who have done greater works than Jesus, from around 100 AD upto this day 21 century?

Please name me a few who have done greater works than Jesus Christ, using John 14:12-13, and excluding Acts of the Apostles?

 

[T_More]

From JW Facts.com=

Originally, JW’s participated in non-combatant duty and even went to the trenches.

“There is no command in the Scriptures against military service. It would be quite right to shoot, not to kill.” Zion’s Watch Tower 1898 Aug 1 p.231 (see also jv p.191)

“There could be nothing against our conscience in going into the army. Wherever we would go we could take the Lord with us, the Captain of our salvation, and wherever we would go we could find opportunities to serve him and his cause.” Zion’s Watch Tower 1903 Apr 15 p.120

The Watchtower requested prayers for America to defeat Germany during World War One.

“In accordance with the resolution of Congress of April 2nd, and with the proclamation of the president of the United States of May 11, it is suggested that the Lord’s people everywhere make May 30th a day of prayer and supplication. … As says the spirit through the Apostle Paul: “I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour.” (I Timothy 2:1-3) Let there be praise and thanks-giving to God for the promised glorious outcome of the war, the breaking of the shackles of autocracy, the freeing of the captives (Isaiah 61:1) and the making of the world safe for the common people–blessings all assured by the Word of God to the people of this country and of the whole world of mankind.” Watchtower 1918 Jun 1 p.174

Under Rutherford refusal to participate in war or civilian service was enforced. This resulted in the jailing and even murder of Jehovah’s Witnesses. In 1996, the Watchtower softened their stance, now allowing military service and civilian duty as a matter of conscience, presumably only in non combatant roles.

“What, though, if the Christian lives in a land where exemption [from military service] is not granted to ministers of religion? Then he will have to make a personal decision following his Bible-trained conscience. What, though, if the State requires a Christian for a period of time to perform civilian service that is a part of national service under a civilian administration? That is his decision before Jehovah.” Watchtower 1996 May 1 pp.19-20

It is sad to think of the many Jehovah’s Witnesses that languished in prison during their youth, were persecuted and even killed at Watchtower direction, only to find that civilian service is now considered an acceptable option.

“The sixth of the Ten Commandments also declared, “You must not murder.”” (w86 9/1 p.18) However, Old Testament support of Israelite war and the death penalty shows killing under these circumstances do not fall within the Biblical definition of murder.

One of the principle arguments against war is to quote Jesus warning at Matthew 26:52 “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” John shows the reason for these words was that Peter was not to prevent Jesus arrest, saying at John 18:11 “Put the sword into [its] sheath. The cup that the Father has given me, should I not by all means drink it?” Peter’s carrying a sword during Jesus last hours indicates Jesus accepted being armed.

The Bible supports warfare.

Ecclesiastes 3:8 “[There is] a time to love and a time to hate; **a time for war **and a time for peace.”

The entirety of Israelite history is steeped in brutal warfare. Over 250 times the Bible refers to God as “Jehovah of Armies” and he regularly commanded that his followers execute all that did not worship him.

Joshua 6:21 “And they went devoting all that was in the city, from man to woman, from young man to old man and to bull and sheep and ***, to destruction by the edge of the sword.”

Numbers 31:15-18 "So Moses said to them: “Have YOU preserved alive every female? Look! They are the ones who, by Balaam’s word, served to induce the sons of Israel to commit unfaithfulness toward Jehovah over the affair of Peor, so that the scourge came upon the assembly of Jehovah. And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male.”

The Watchtower justifies Old Testament Jewish war as necessary to cleanse the promised land of infidels. In the same manner, Christian Churches that engage in war see this as a role ordained by God. The very existence of Jehovah’s Witnesses is a result of the global expansion of Christianity at the end of the sword.

The New Testament never specifically forbids Christian engagement in war, which, as a significant aspect to history, it should if this were an unacceptable practice. Several passages indicate acceptance of war.

When military officers came to John for baptism John did not direct them to leave the service.

Luke 3:14 "Also, those in military service would ask him: “What shall we also do?” And he said to them: “Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with **YOUR provisions.” **

At Matthew 8:5-13 Jesus did not turn the soldier away when asking to heal his manservant, rather commending him saying “I have not found anyone In Israel with such great faith” In the account at Acts 10 Cornelius was not required to step down as commander of Roman soldiers before being baptised.

 

[CoRedeemer]

I see you have since included lots of historical conflicts from the turbulent middle ages – mainly Christendom vs Islam. These were terrible conflicts with atrocities on both sides. And I have heard both sides claiming self defence in justification. Complicated.

Let us say ignorantly the same thing about King David fighting off the Philistines? “And I have heard both sides claiming self defence in justification.” It doesn’t sound nice nor charitible to say, “Oh, you guys are still waring over land and gods.”

But, in war there is always the one who is the aggressor. And the idea of war is either to stop the aggressor or self defence. Either we are protecting the aggressor or we are fighting against the ones who are performing self defence.

You can’t say, “Both sides are the aggressors.” For instance, lets say somebody started to invade New Zealand but Australia said, "Leave them alone! They’re both the same, they’re all bad and they’re all evil. Or, “Oh, Nazi Germany and U.S.A are the aggressors; and they’re both the same, they’re both aggressors” Well, why don’t we just say ignorantly, “Oh, and the Jews are the cause for their own deaths as they are the aggressors too.” Yeah right! Neutrality in war is a great sin. By being neutral in war, you are actually defending the aggressor, which means, that you are protecting and shielding the cause of the war, (The aggressor) and allowing them to spead their aggression. Therefore, you are an accomplice to the aggressors sins by being silent, by being neutral, by with-holding the truth, by flattering the truth, and by omission of self defence.

In war, there can’t be “No victims” We can’t say ignorantly, “They’re all bad! There’s no victims in the process!”

Well, in war, there has to be the victims of war, and this war is caused by somebody starting it!!! War is started by someone aggressing it, someone who makes aggression on the innocent. WW2 was caused and started by someone who is the aggressor! Yet, it finished off with someone who made justification in fighting off the aggressor. Am I not right?

Yet, the justice of God fights off the aggressor. This is not a sin. It is actually the will of God. But when you say, “And I have heard both sides claiming self defence in justificaion,” well, you are denying the aggressor, “Islam” who made many attempts to take over Europe and leave Christanity out-lawed. When you say, “Both sides are evil,” so… are you not protecting the aggressor by denying the justification of the victims right to self-defence? Of course you are! And you are actually protecting the aggressor and not the victims.

Take heed therefore what Isaiah 5:20-21 said not to do, “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.”

War is always caused by someone starting it, that is, someone who is the aggressor! And you can’t say, “Oh, there’s no victims because both sides are evil, both sides are bad, both sides are the aggressors.”

And imagine if we said, “Oh, the Jews and the Nazis are both the aggressors, they’re both the same - bad. Well, let us leave these two people to resolve their indifferences. Let’s not help them fight off injustice because both sides don’t care about equality, justice, and human rights!” Do you not see how stupid this would be! Staying neutral in war is a great sin!

 

[CoRedeemer]

I did a little research and discovered something interesting. I was thinking to myself: Is Jesus Christ truly God, Second Person of the Holy Trinity? Thus I stumbled upon a dozen verses.

Matthew 2:11 has the Greek word “prosekynēsan - προσεκύνησαν” which means worship, and it is the same word used in Revelation 13:4 "And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they** worshiped **the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

Actually Matthew 2:11 says that the wise men from the east fell down, and worshiped him.

And Matthew 14:33 also uses the Greek word “prosekynēsan - προσεκύνησαν” worship. "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

How about John 4:20 and it also uses the Greek word, “prosekynēsan - προσεκύνησαν” worship. "Our fathers** worshiped **on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”

Not convinced yet… then how about Revelation 7:11 and it too, uses the Greek word, “prosekynēsan - προσεκύνησαν” which means worship. “And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God.”

What about Matthew 28:9 - “And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.”

Matthew 28:17 - “And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.” Yes, some do doubt!

John 9:38 - ‘He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he **worshiped **him.’

How about Hebews 1:6 talks about the Angels worshiping Jesus - ‘And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”’

Lets move on to John 5:22-23, “The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.”

Notice how Jesus puts himself equally with the Father in honor and worship. He literally says, “that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.” Thus he even says that those who do not honor the Son, do not honour the Father who sent him."

In John 10:33 we see the animosity the Jews had for Jesus. They even worked out and computed what Jesus was trying to say. And so they lost control and went psychotic by what Jesus said, "“It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God!”

Notice how Jesus doesn’t say, “Wait! Hang on a second! You think that I am God!!! Hey, no!!! I am not God.” He even justifies it! We even see this behaviour in John 8:57-59.

John 14:28 says, "You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

This is easy to explain. Hebrews 2:7-9 speaks for itself, ‘You have made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, and have appointed him over the works of your hands; you have put all things in subjection under his feet.’ But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Or as Galatians 3:13 says, "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree.

Before Jesus died and had ascended into heaven, he was considered a little lower than the angels, and the Father was greater than Jesus, but now he has conquered death and sits at the right hand of the Father. Therefore the Father and the Son are One. John 10:30 “The Father and I are One!”

 

[jessaka]

**Regardless, are you stating that Christ could not protect His Church from total apostasy? **Where would some have gone to if they had a dispute with their brother as prescribed by Christ in Matthew 18? As a faithful follower of Christ, what Church was He telling them to go with a dispute after He was gone? Let’s say it was the year 1720. Upon reading Matthew 18, a pontential convert reads this passage and wants to know where to go. Where would he/she be directed to take their dispute to? And remember, Christ’s Church was promised to never fail in Matthew 16, and in Ephesians 3:20-21.

This is really good T. I also like your other arguements.

 

[jessaka]

John 8 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God.

Someone on this thread post this scripture. You know, when I was a Jehovah’s Witness I never read this before. It is so meaningful to me now. Of course, as a JW I never read the Bible, but not because it was forbidden but because I had enough to read that was put out by the Watchtower, Bible & Tract Society.

But as for Jesus, well, we were not to worship him, and now I find many scriptures where he is worshipped and to be worshipped. Jesus wasn’t much in the picture at all. It was all about Jehovah, and to this day it has always been about God to me, not about Jesus. This Easter I began looking at Christ, this for many reasons, not because it was Easter because I never celebrated Easter as a JW, not as a HIndu or as a Buddhist. But because of what I was reading, Gnostic Christianity which is replete with sexual tantric practices, well, for some, many or most of them, I saw why the Catholic Church banned it, and soI realized that they had something to say of importance.

I may not agree with everything the Cathlic Church teaches, but I don’t think I really have to do so. In time maybe my mind will change on things. At this moment I don’t even kow if I will ever be a Christian again.

It was to excommunication that I rejected to, because I thought it was like shunning (disfellowshipment, as the JWs call it), but it isn’t at all. One of the most cruel things that the JWs do is disfellowship members, and for the slightest infraction. Speak about not treating the flock with kindness!!! People are not just torn from their God, but from their family and friends for things that they had not done, or didn’t mean to do, just for cases of imperfection, or just because they can’t believe in the teachings anymore. And for this they lose their parents and siblings. NO ONE can talk with them. In turn many become atheists, and the Catholic Church is the last religion on their list of places to attend because they are Bablyon the Great, marked for destruction, and they are wrong about everything. I wonder what made Russell and Rutherfold so anti-Catholic? And as a JW we thought it great that when JWs were kicked out or left that they lost all religion and especially that they would not go to the Catholic Church. How loving is that? How loving is any of it?

I read the posts by the JW here, and they are taken from the publications. Not much is actually from him, not even that about war. When I was JW we were pacists. Evidentally that has changed some. We never thought to help others unless it was going door-to-door. When I left and started thinking for myself I realized that some wars are very justified, especially the holocaust, and all I knew about it from the JWs is how much they were persecuted by Hitler, and how they stood in their faith.

We never helped people that were hungry either, not even members. I remember going to a house to have dinner with one of the elders (overseers?). We all ate one sweet potato because that was all they had. We were not taught to give, and so I didn’t question or give. I just wondered why they didn’t have much food.

I would only hope that the JW here would sit down and read the New Testament and see what Jesus really had to say, but then I realize that once you have been well indoctrinated it is hard to think out of the box. It still is for me with some things.

I did like reading what the early church fathers had to say about the trinity. What an eye opener since the JWs love to quote from them when it serves their needs but not when it doesn’t. Does this mean that the WB&TS actually read what they had said and ignored the teaching on the trinity? Or did they find the quote they needed elsewhere and used it, not realizing all that they said? And still it is hard for me to think of Jesus as God or even in the trinity. But I can see that since Jesus was lower than the angels while on earth, that the Father could be said to be greater than he.

It is actually good that we have this thread going because as an exJW I need this and hopefully others will benefit as well. When I was a JW I thought that the Catholics didn’t read the Bible. Now I have a Catholic Bible, and I have also learned that in 3 years Mass has completely read the Bible. I don’t know how many JWs can boast of this. I also remember that we would tell Catholics that they should be able to listen to other opinions, and this allowed us to give our opinion at their door or in their house. But if a JW is asked to listen to an opinion, well, most leave. And what else? Well, when we went door-to-door or talked to anyone about the teachings, we were counting time. Time meant so much to us. We got to put how much time we spent in service and bragged about it. 100 hours was the greatest, the Pioneers did that. I was a Pioneer when something happened to me, and the JWs didn’t believe me and so kicked me out. How I was proud of those 100 hours and to be called a Pioneer, and how horrible to have been kicked out. I have always left every religion on my own sense then because when I see people being abused, I just walk out. They taught me that when they kicked me out and I found out how horrible it felt. I never got over it, and it has been 40 years. And I could never look at Christianity until now, but I don’t know where it is going, if anywhere.

 

[the_phoenix]

Depends how you see heaven. Some people eat ice cream saying, “This is heaven!” While others end up taking a trip to some secluded island on a blue lagoon and say, “My God, this is heaven!!!” When Lazarus from Luke 16:19-31 had entered into his rest with Father Abraham, and because he had had a very harsh and cruel life, therefore, to him entering into such a paradise might seem to him as heaven as heaven can be, because it is so relaxing and alleviating, yet it isn’t. The same thing applies to people who had died before Jesus.

And as I said before, “it depends how you see heaven.”

Jesus said, “For, there where your treasure is, there will your heart be,” or there will your spirit be!"

But, what are our treasures? When we die thus our spirit will desire the very thing which we treasure most. But for some this treasure can be seen in Luke 16:19-31 where the rich man’s treasure was his loved ones, his 5 brothers. Nevertheless, someone else’s treasure might be alcohol, or certain drugs, cocain, heroin, marijuana, or even attached to sins of impurity, or attached to money or land or investment property, or for someone else it is God and only God. And that is why Jesus says, “Store up treasures for yourselves where no moth or rust can destroy, where no thief can break-in and steal. For there where your treasure is, there will your heart or spirit be!”

Start storing your treasures!

“And so I tell you: use filthy money to make friends for yourselves, so that, when it fails, ** these people may welcome you **into the ETERNAL HOMES.” Luke 16:9

This is what the rich man failed to do in Luke 16:19-31, he failed to use filthy money to make friends for himself, so that, when it had failed, Lazarus would have welcomed the rich man into his eternal home.

Awesome post, much to think about here!

 

[the_phoenix]

Someone on this thread post this scripture. You know, when I was a Jehovah’s Witness I never read this before. It is so meaningful to me now. Of course, as a JW I never read the Bible, but not because it was forbidden but because I had enough to read that was put out by the Watchtower, Bible & Tract Society.

But as for Jesus, well, we were not to worship him, and now I find many scriptures where he is worshipped and to be worshipped. Jesus wasn’t much in the picture at all. It was all about Jehovah, and to this day it has always been about God to me, not about Jesus. This Easter I began looking at Christ, this for many reasons, not because it was Easter because I never celebrated Easter as a JW, not as a HIndu or as a Buddhist. But because of what I was reading, Gnostic Christianity which is replete with sexual tantric practices, well, for some, many or most of them, I saw why the Catholic Church banned it, and soI realized that they had something to say of importance.

I may not agree with everything the Cathlic Church teaches, but I don’t think I really have to do so. In time maybe my mind will change on things. At this moment I don’t even kow if I will ever be a Christian again.

It was to excommunication that I rejected to, because I thought it was like shunning (disfellowshipment, as the JWs call it), but it isn’t at all. One of the most cruel things that the JWs do is disfellowship members, and for the slightest infraction. Speak about not treating the flock with kindness!!! People are not just torn from their God, but from their family and friends for things that they had not done, or didn’t mean to do, just for cases of imperfection, or just because they can’t believe in the teachings anymore. And for this they lose their parents and siblings. NO ONE can talk with them. In turn many become atheists, and the Catholic Church is the last religion on their list of places to attend because they are Bablyon the Great, marked for destruction, and they are wrong about everything. I wonder what made Russell and Rutherfold so anti-Catholic? And as a JW we thought it great that when JWs were kicked out or left that they lost all religion and especially that they would not go to the Catholic Church. How loving is that? How loving is any of it?

I read the posts by the JW here, and they are taken from the publications. Not much is actually from him, not even that about war. When I was JW we were pacists. Evidentally that has changed some. We never thought to help others unless it was going door-to-door. When I left and started thinking for myself I realized that some wars are very justified, especially the holocaust, and all I knew about it from the JWs is how much they were persecuted by Hitler, and how they stood in their faith.

We never helped people that were hungry either, not even members. I remember going to a house to have dinner with one of the elders (overseers?). We all ate one sweet potato because that was all they had. We were not taught to give, and so I didn’t question or give. I just wondered why they didn’t have much food.

I would only hope that the JW here would sit down and read the New Testament and see what Jesus really had to say, but then I realize that once you have been well indoctrinated it is hard to think out of the box. It still is for me with some things.

I did like reading what the early church fathers had to say about the trinity. What an eye opener since the JWs love to quote from them when it serves their needs but not when it doesn’t. Does this mean that the WB&TS actually read what they had said and ignored the teaching on the trinity? Or did they find the quote they needed elsewhere and used it, not realizing all that they said? And still it is hard for me to think of Jesus as God or even in the trinity. But I can see that since Jesus was lower than the angels while on earth, that the Father could be said to be greater than he.

It is actually good that we have this thread going because as an exJW I need this and hopefully others will benefit as well. When I was a JW I thought that the Catholics didn’t read the Bible. Now I have a Catholic Bible, and I have also learned that in 3 years Mass has completely read the Bible. I don’t know how many JWs can boast of this. I also remember that we would tell Catholics that they should be able to listen to other opinions, and this allowed us to give our opinion at their door or in their house. But if a JW is asked to listen to an opinion, well, most leave. And what else? Well, when we went door-to-door or talked to anyone about the teachings, we were counting time. Time meant so much to us. We got to put how much time we spent in service and bragged about it. 100 hours was the greatest, the Pioneers did that. I was a Pioneer when something happened to me, and the JWs didn’t believe me and so kicked me out. How I was proud of those 100 hours and to be called a Pioneer, and how horrible to have been kicked out. I have always left every religion on my own sense then because when I see people being abused, I just walk out. They taught me that when they kicked me out and I found out how horrible it felt. I never got over it, and it has been 40 years. And I could never look at Christianity until now, but I don’t know where it is going, if anywhere.

May God bless you on your search.