Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

[CoRedeemer]

You know, going to the book store a bible is really “A Self Help” to start millions and millions of religions if there’s no foundation set by the Apostles. Seriously, the bible on its own is only causing millions and millions of denominations for which there is no solution besides seeking the Apostolic Church which is the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is meant to unite, not divide. One of the saddest things which is happening in the world, is to see so many Christian denominations trying to relieve the Acts of the Apostles, so they break away and break away and break away and forever. There comes a point when a man has to ask themselves, “Well, where will this all lead to when each week a fragmentations after fragmantations after fragmentations occurs.”

This is because of Scripture Alone. Scripture Alone is the cause of all this. Scripture alone is trap of traps, a snare of the devil to get people mistrusting each other, so that each and every person has their own little church, for they can’t get along with each other; so they go and build another church down the corner of the road. All they do is argue over interpretations after interpretations because there’s no authority, no magesterium, there’s nobody who governs and determines what is right and what is wrong. All because of scripture alone.

But Jesus gave authority to his apostles that they are the authority, that they are the ones who will pass their authority from one generation to another generation to another. This is precisely what we mean by tradition, that authority must transcend from generation to generation to generation. This is tradition. This is why Jesus said, “And if your brother or sister will not listen to you, tell it to the church.” So, there has to be that transcending authority, one authority that governs authority of all authorities. A.K.A. Peter! The Pope!

Peter or the successor of Peter, the Pope, is the key to hold and bind the authority of all authorities, (See Galatians 2:7-8.) Because Paul is a Jew, and, Peter the Apostle of the Jews has authority over the Jews, in other words, he even has authority over Paul, because Paul is a Jew himself. (Read Galatians 2:7-8)

Peter or the Pope is an indestructible transcending authority, (see Matt 16:18) which proceeds from one generation to another generation to another generation, and this is called, “Tradition,” which many non-Catholics love to distort, but, when they do distort it they are only dividing people further and further away from the truth and leading them to doom, hell!

Well, instead of scripture alone there is such a thing called, “Church Alone!” or “Sola Ecclesia!” This is exactly what Jesus meant when he said, “Go to the church if your brother or sister will not listen to you.” Therefore, the Catholic Church is right when it says, “Sola Ecclesia”

This is how the Catholic Church opperates: Church Alone + Authoritative Tradition + Sacred Scripture = CHRISTIAN UNITY. (see Matt 18:15-18 and JOHN 17:11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep those you have given me in your name, so that they may be one, as we also are.”)

 

[mackbrislawn]

Regardless;9237793 Jesus was the founder of the Church of Christ. Not C. T. Russell. Though I’m sure he was part of the fulfillment of the prophecy Jesus gave.

Yes, now the question is in what way he fulfills prophecy:

It is interesting you refer to 2 Thess 2:15, because that was a warning against being corrupted by the “apostasy.” The NIV calls it “a rebellion” and the KJV “the falling away”.

This represented Jesus planting true religion, but Satan would introduce false. The two would grow together. Jesus said until the “conclusion of the system” (the end of the age NIV). Then his angels would separate true from false.

So Jesus foretold the true religion would be infiltrated by false. Satan tried to destroy true religion, but could not. Matt 28:19, 20 said so. Instead he tried counterfeit religion. “Apostasy.”

Did C.T. Russell fulfill prophecy about true religon infiltrated by false? Luther, Calvin?

This illustration does not portray genuine Christians who fall away from the truth. Rather, it points to a deliberate effort on the part of Satan to corrupt the Christian congregation by introducing wicked people into it. By the time that the last apostle, John, was old, this apostasy was clearly evident. (2 Pet. 2:1-3; 1 John 2:18.)

Here’s an odd question. Was John the apostle old when 2 Pet was written?

These weedlike Christians appeaed “While men were sleeping,” says Jesus. (Matt. 13:25) When was this? We find the answer in Paul’s words to the Ephesian elders: “I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29, 30) He went on to admonish those elders to keep awake spiritually.

We know the Catholic church has been under continued attack, to draw people away from it. Attacking the church seems to be almost the only purpose of some of the false groups that have arisen. Satan of course would attack the true church the most, and it is seen that the CC is the most attacked of all, from all quarters. These attacks from Satan are evidence that the CC is the true church.

After the apostles, who acted as “a restraint” against the apostasy, began falling asleep in death, many Christians fell asleep spiritually. (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 6-8.) That is when the “apostasy” started

.

It does seem the apostasy was already going even before the aposltes died.

We can look to history to see the change that occurred after the death of the apostles! False teachings entered and Christendom was soon involved in politics and pagan celebrations. The numbers of “Christians” increased, but it was not the true religion Jesus set up. Jesus prophecy was accurate.

How do we access the true religion Jesus set up? Some people think that the apostasy began with Paul, who corrupted the initial pure Chrisitanity of the Jerusalem church. He sure was at odds with representatives of the Jerusalem church. Hence the apostasy began with Paul.

So we would have to look to the “harvest time” (the conclusion of the system) to see the difference between true and false religion.

Many people have already decided. How about you, will you have to wait to see the difference?

How do we tell the difference? Jesus tells us in Matt. 7:16-23. Their fruits. What they produce. … But this post is now long enough.

We have seen the fruits of the Reformation–endless fragmentation and squabbling. And now, with modern liberals, even disbelief in scripture itself.

 

[T_More]

Jesus was the founder of the Church of Christ. Not C. T. Russell. Though I’m sure he was part of the fulfillment of the prophecy Jesus gave.

I agree, Christ was the founder. We know this because of Matt. 16. Now, he also mentions it would never be overcome in those same passages in Matt. 16. So, where did it go? Where had it been until Russell?

It is interesting you refer to 2 Thess 2:15, because that was a warning against being corrupted by the “apostasy.” The NIV calls it “a rebellion” and the KJV “the falling away”.

**Regardless, your own teaching authority is claiming this:

“Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually.” Watchtower 1981 Mar 1 p.24

Where was the slave before Russell? Scripture never states that there would be total **apostasy, only that there would be those that would break away. Otherwise, Christ would’ve made a promise that He Himself could not fulfill, and we know that that just can’t be possible.

Jesus gave a parable at Matt 13:24-30. He explained it for his disciples in verses 36-43.
Briefly, - a man sowed a field with fine wheat seed, but it was also sowed with weeds by an enemy. When realised, the man stopped his servants uprooting the weeds, but at harvest time the wheat and weeds were separated for saving or destroying.

This represented Jesus planting true religion, but Satan would introduce false. The two would grow together. Jesus said until the “conclusion of the system” (the end of the age NIV). Then his angels would separate true from false.

So Jesus foretold the true religion would be infiltrated by false. Satan tried to destroy true religion, but could not. Matt 28:19, 20 said so. Instead he tried counterfeit religion. “Apostasy.”

This illustration does not portray genuine Christians who fall away from the truth. Rather, it points to a deliberate effort on the part of Satan to corrupt the Christian congregation by introducing wicked people into it. By the time that the last apostle, John, was old, this apostasy was clearly evident. (2 Pet. 2:1-3; 1 John 2:18.)

These weedlike Christians appeaed “While men were sleeping,” says Jesus. (Matt. 13:25) When was this? We find the answer in Paul’s words to the Ephesian elders: “I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29, 30) He went on to admonish those elders to keep awake spiritually.

After the apostles, who acted as “a restraint” against the apostasy, began falling asleep in death, many Christians fell asleep spiritually. (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 6-8.) That is when the “apostasy” started.

We can look to history to see the change that occurred after the death of the apostles! False teachings entered and Christendom was soon involved in politics and pagan celebrations. The numbers of “Christians” increased, but it was not the true religion Jesus set up. Jesus prophecy was accurate.

So we would have to look to the “harvest time” (the conclusion of the system) to see the difference between true and false religion.

How do we tell the difference? Jesus tells us in Matt. 7:16-23. Their fruits. What they produce. … But this post is now long enough.

Regardless, are you stating that Christ could not protect His Church from total apostasy? Where would some have gone to if they had a dispute with their brother as prescribed by Christ in Matthew 18? As a faithful follower of Christ, what Church was He telling them to go with a dispute after He was gone? Let’s say it was the year 1720. Upon reading Matthew 18, a pontential convert reads this passage and wants to know where to go. Where would he/she be directed to take their dispute to? And remember, Christ’s Church was promised to never fail in Matthew 16, and in Ephesians 3:20-21.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I still don’t see an answer to this question: Where was God’s Organization before 1914 came along? Who was the Faithful and Discreet Slave feeding believers prior to 1914?

Also, why did the JWs start off using the King James Version of the Bible for their first 50 years if the Bible (esp KJV) was preserved and translated by apostate Christendom?

 

[Regardless]

yikes - lots of passionate replies since I last logged on!

Please believe I’m not trying to get anyone angry (I’m not into that and see no point) however, I won’t agree if I have reason to believe something is wrong.

And sure- Our evidence may well be in error. (Though Encyclopedias are rarely far wrong.)
I draw your attention to some of the evidence – not to insult or get you angry – but to explain why students of the Bible (including JW’s) have over the centuries often disagreed with the big churches. (Often at considerable danger to themselves.)

The accusation is often made against the JW’s, as it was in earlier posts here = “You are a new little religion and can’t possibly be the true religion, because you are so different from the big ones.”

We believe main stream Christianity gradually drifted from the truth Jesus taught. (as per the evidence I show) And if that is true, then surely you see why we are interested in going back to the scriptures as out foundation. By doing so we quickly find ourselves disagreeing with many of the mainstream teachings – and are motivated to tell others about what we have found. (again not to annoy them - because we think it will benefit them)

But humour me for a moment: If the evidence is not wrong, and the prophecies of Jesus about the “falling away” *are *referring to these changes, we consider the returning to his teachings by a group fulfillment of Jesus prophecy also.
After all – Jesus would hardly let the truth be lost would he?

And although they could not at the time imagine how it could be done – ones who came to this conclusion have often expected a world wide preaching work. (Isacc Newton for example, concluded the trinity was wrong and expected a world wide preaching work eventually)
And rather suddenly the JW’s found themselves doing exactly that!

Even C.T. Russell didn’t expect that! He thought the availability of the Bible was pretty much fulfillment of Matthew 24:14.
He didn’t think the few thousands who worked with him would mobilize into several million! - preaching worldwide!
(to such an extent that people would be writing books to provide people ammunition to stump them!)

 

[Regardless]

I still don’t see an answer to this question: Where was God’s Organization before 1914 came along? Who was the Faithful and Discreet Slave feeding believers prior to 1914?

Also, why did the JWs start off using the King James Version of the Bible for their first 50 years if the Bible (esp KJV) was preserved and translated by apostate Christendom?

I’ll have to answer later. Sorry. Just on my lunch break.

But at least you don’t suggest we need the NWT to believe what we believe.

 

[T_More]

I’ll have to answer later. Sorry. Just on my lunch break.

But at least you don’t suggest we need the NWT to believe what we believe.

Just a little history lesson. The original King James, just like the earliest bibles, contained 7 books that the NWT doesn not have. So this would explain in part why there is a difference in the teachings of the two religions.

 

[T_More]

yikes - lots of passionate replies since I last logged on!

There should be passion, We are talking about eternity, right?

Please believe I’m not trying to get anyone angry (I’m not into that and see no point) however, I won’t agree if I have reason to believe something is wrong.

And sure- Our evidence may well be in error. (Though Encyclopedias are rarely far wrong.)
I draw your attention to some of the evidence – not to insult or get you angry – but to explain why students of the Bible (including JW’s) have over the centuries often disagreed with the big churches. (Often at considerable danger to themselves.)

The accusation is often made against the JW’s, as it was in earlier posts here = “You are a new little religion and can’t possibly be the true religion, because you are so different from the big ones.”

That’s the whole point, Regardless. Did not Christ promise perpetuity to His Church? The answer is in Matthew 16. So, where did it go?

We believe main stream Christianity gradually drifted from the truth Jesus taught. (as per the evidence I show)

**No, you claimed in post 148 of this thread that the Church went apostate when John died. **

And if that is true, then surely you see why we are interested in going back to the scriptures as out foundation. By doing so we quickly find ourselves disagreeing with many of the mainstream teachings – and are motivated to tell others about what we have found. (again not to annoy them - because we think it will benefit them)

Your religion disagrees because your religion took the Church’s book, and then read what it wanted to read into it. When you step away from the body of Christ and take her book with you, everything goes awry.

But humour me for a moment: If the evidence is not wrong, and the prophecies of Jesus about the “falling away” *are *referring to these changes, we consider the returning to his teachings by a group fulfillment of Jesus prophecy also.
After all – Jesus would hardly let the truth be lost would he?

Bingo! Now we’re getting somewhere! Jesus never said His Church would completely apostatize. He said there would be false teachers and lead some of His sheep astray. The question that you seem to be avoding or missing is who did not leave and remained faithful? So yes, He would not let the truth be lost. Otherwise, why commision the apostles to evangelize to all nations? That would have been an exercise in futility. Who were the faithful followers left over after this supposed total apostasy?

And although they could not at the time imagine how it could be done – ones who came to this conclusion have often expected a world wide preaching work. (Isacc Newton for example, concluded the trinity was wrong and expected a world wide preaching work eventually)
And rather suddenly the JW’s found themselves doing exactly that!

You want to use Isaac Newton as a support against the Trinity? Do you know anything about the man? Yikes…Regardless, do you honestly think JW’s are the first or only ones that have ever done world wide preaching work? This is a fallacious argument.

Even C.T. Russell didn’t expect that! He thought the availability of the Bible was pretty much fulfillment of Matthew 24:14.

Christ did not say in that passage that this preaching work would not commence for another 1900 years.

He didn’t think the few thousands who worked with him would mobilize into several million! - preaching worldwide!
(to such an extent that people would be writing books to provide people ammunition to stump them!)

**So the Watchtower hasn’t spilled alot of ink telling others things about the Catholic Church that the Church simply does not teach? Come on man! Good grief! **

**Regardless you have a dilemma here. You’re claiming that a total apostasy took place, yet the Watchtower claims the Slave has been around for 19 centuries. Which is it, and can you point to who the slave was before the Watchtower hit the scene? **

 

[Regardless]

I still don’t see an answer to this question: Where was God’s Organization before 1914 came along? Who was the Faithful and Discreet Slave feeding believers prior to 1914?

On the “who were the faithful slave before?” question. Sorry – I can’t give you a list!

Though Jesus said in his illustration the wheat and weeds would grow together and only be obvious at the end of the system. Infact then they would “Shine as brightly as the sun”. (Matt 13:43) - Light is often used to represent understanding in the Bible. - But
could that also mean that untill the conclusion of the system, they weren’t especially obvious?

Perhaps we could speculate which Bible translators – (hunted and persecuted for changing the Bible to common languages) were among the ones trying to keep the truth alive.
Also there have been many little groups or even brave individual clergy men who have identified what they considered non-Biblical doctrines – (and were usually labeled Heretics, tortured and destroyed.)

If Jesus prophecy is correct, maybe many of them were that “wheat class” among weeds.
I don’t know which – but that would make sense to me.
Yet Jesus said there would be some, and that he would be with them (Matt 28:19,20). And before the end they would stand out!

 

[Regardless]

I still don’t see an answer to this question:…
Also, why did the JWs start off using the King James Version of the Bible for their first 50 years if the Bible (esp KJV) was preserved and translated by apostate Christendom?

I’m pleased to see you don’t subscribe to the excuse “you need the NWT to believe what you do - and probably changed that to suit yourselves.” Thank you.

As for the Bible question – I had that as a hang up myself for a long time.
I used to wonder: “How come we point to these church councils as evidence the Trinity got invented later – but ignore the fact the Bible Canon was confirmed by the same councils?!”

But then I found a table at the back of our “scriptures inspired” book, (sorry don’t have it with me - will describe from memory) This table showed all the lists that have been found of the “inspired books” going back to the early 2nd century!
– and with minor exceptions they were the same in these lists long before the church councils.
Sure the Catholic Church confirmed these lists as well – but it was already well known which were true and which were not inspired.

And a little thought on that -: Jesus and his apostles quoted many books as scripture – so they obviously didn’t have to refer to a later Catholic council for approval of which were true.”

 

[adf417]

Still …w/ a Coke.

 

[Phyllo]

Hi Regardless,
First let me say that I have learned a lot form your remarks.
:

And a little thought on that -: Jesus and his apostles quoted many books as scripture – so they obviously didn’t have to refer to a later Catholic council for approval of which were true.”

You might have that a little backwards. Maybe the Catholic council specifically chose certain books BECAUSE Jesus quoted from them. And what did the people do for the first several hundred years of Christianity that didn’t have a written bible as we do? How do you think they learned about Jesus? Word of mouth and Tradition.

 

[Kc906]

As for the Bible question – I had that as a hang up myself for a long time. I used to wonder: “How come we point to these church councils as evidence the Trinity got invented later – but ignore the fact the Bible Canon was confirmed by the same councils?!”

Peace my friend, I hope all is well!

The first seven ecumenical councils did not invent theological doctrine in any way. Throughout the years many challenges rose up against the Church and her teachings; these councils confirmed what had already been believed and taught by the Church. Your Governing Body confirms that “the ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ’s birth. What they taught is of interest.” The First Council of Nicaea took place in 325 AD; every ante-Nicene Father quote listed on the Watchtower web site is from before this first council. The quotes provided on the Watchtowers web site lead the read to believe that the Jesus was an Angel, a created being who was inferior to God.

One big problem is, the Watchtower did not document their sources for these ante-nicene Fathers; they only provided a name. It would be helpful for someone to check the source to see if they are providing an honest review of statements made, but the Watchtower didn’t want anyone “fact checking” these for some reason. Perhaps the reason is that each and every ante-Nicene Father either explicity or implicity described the Trinity; which of course describes Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God. The Watchtower itself intentionally misleads its readers that the early Christian leaders in “the Church” did not believe in the trinity, and that it was “created” during an ecumenical council; which is absolutely 100% false.

And a little thought on that -: Jesus and his apostles quoted many books as scripture – so they obviously didn’t have to refer to a later Catholic council for approval of which were true.”

We know without a doubt that Jesus did not quote any New Testament books of scripture; after all they did not begin to be written until about 30 years after his death and resurrection. They lived out the Gospel during the days of Jesus and the early preaching of his Apostles and early followers. Which means that when they referenced scripture during their “oral preaching;” they had to be referencing the Old Testament writings at the time.

A review of the first few centuries after Christ show that there were many books introduced as “infallible writings” at the time. Gnosticism was an early belief at the time, and many of these books included beliefs which were held by this group. The Catholic Church knew which books were inspired and authentic at the time, but many people did not as they were listening to and following teachings from these non-inspired writings. A council was declared to affirm the Bible Canon, and from this point forward everyone knew without a doubt what books were inspired by God.

P.S. I hope we can continue our Private Message, Regardless. Waiting on you brother!

 

[Kc906]

Continued…

The specific Ante-Nicene Fathers that were quoted by the Watchtower attempting to portray them as people who believe the pre-incarnate Jesus was created, an Angel, are:

Justin Martyr, who died about 165 AD: “The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God.” (First Apology, ch 63)

“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5-6)

“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, …” (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)

Irenaeus, who died about 200 AD: So that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator." - Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3.

“Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King.” (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1)

Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the Earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the Resurrection from the dead, and the bodily Ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to re-establish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1)

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 AD: Clement Of Alexandria “I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.” (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)

“Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son.” (Exhortation to the Greeks, 10:110:1)

“The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for lie was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1)

Tertullian, who died about 230 AD: “Never did any angel descend for the purpose of being crucified, of tasting death, and of rising again from the dead.” (The Flesh of Christ, ch 6)

“The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born” (The Flesh of Christ, 5:6-7)

“As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)

 

[pablope]

I’m pleased to see you don’t subscribe to the excuse “you need the NWT to believe what you do - and probably changed that to suit yourselves.” Thank you.

As for the Bible question – I had that as a hang up myself for a long time.
I used to wonder: “How come we point to these church councils as evidence the Trinity got invented later – but ignore the fact the Bible Canon was confirmed by the same councils?!”

 

[CoRedeemer]

Colossian 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, first born of all creation."

So Jesus Christ is exactly like Jehovah (God), a copy of God, because it says, "He is the image of the “invisible God.” therefore Jesus Christ is perfectly and 100 percent exactly as the copy of Jehovah. If Jehovah went so far as to make a copy of Himself, would He, Jehovah, God, not go to the point as to give his very own name too, saying, “Since You are in the image of Jehovah, God, so you are Me, Jehovah, God!” for, He is perfectly in the image of God!

Notice that St. Paul does not say, “He is the image of the visible God,” because God isn’t visible or seen, unless you are looking at him, Jesus Christ, because he is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD, made visible for adoration and worship. Now that makes perfect sense!

Thanks, Saint Paul, you really made the image of God visible through your teachings.

“First-born of all creation” therefore he is born from where? Notice how Saint Paul does not say,“First creature of all creation,” but, “first-born of all creation” this “First-born” represents “Sonship” not as some would like you to believe, “That He was born,” but rather, “First-born,” as in, “The First-born Son,” l

and it is said in John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,”…

Notice how Saint John uses the word, “Only” as in, " The Only Son," as in, “The Only begotten Son.”

Why? Because God has no other sons except “The Only Begotten Son,” which eliminates the idea, that the Angels are the sons of God when they are only His creatures and not His very Only Begotten Son.

When John says that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, then John is really saying that God has no Sonship with the Angels, since saint John says that there is only One Son, “His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON!” for the Only begotten Son is Jesus Christ and is greater than all the angels there is.

That is why Hebrews 1:13 says, “And to which of the angels has He ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? NONE! because there is the One and Only Begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ.”

Saint Michael the Archangel is really an Angel himself, and should never be considered the only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:13 makes it quite clear that not one angel should be considered The Only Begotten Son.

Therefore, Colossians 1:15 says, that Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God the Father, making Jesus Christ the visible God the Son, because God’s Fatherhood by nature is invisibly uncreated, which means that no creature and nothing itself can see the invisible uncreated Being unless ‘It’ came from within It, and that too must be God. “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.” John 6:46 makes that quite clear! And so, this means that not even the Angels have seen the Father except that which has come from within the unseen or invisible-uncreated nature of God - Jesus Christ.

Moreover, just as no man can consider themselves to be a “Father” without having first a “Son”. So too God the Father cannot claim His uncreated Fatherhood without having the uncreated Son.

The Father of God did not make his own Fatherhood, for by nature the Father is uncreated only because His Son is uncreated, and He supports His Father’s uncreated Fatherhood.

And here’s a good example: How can any man consider themselves to be a father without having first a child? They can’t! They must not even consider themselves to be a father if they do not produce an offspring. Likewise the uncreated Father of God must not consider Himself to be the uncreated Father, if he has not the uncreated Son.

We study and acknowledge that the nature of God’s Fatherhood is “Uncreated”, for this is the proper way of looking at God, so that you can see the uncreated Sonship or Sonhood of God

The uncreated Fatherhood leads to the uncreated Sonhood, yet they are one God in the uncreated nature.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

On the “who were the faithful slave before?” question. Sorry – I can’t give you a list!

Here is where/why this troubles me: of all the tons of historical documents we have, there should be some reasonable amount of evidence pointing to a visible Organization in every era. If this cannot be done, that should be a red flag.

If even one instance of God’s Organization cannot be found between 100AD and Russell, particularly immediately prior to Russell, that calls into question the very trustworthiness of the Gospel Message. How can the world and believers trust a God and Gospel that was all but lost for 1800 years?

Though Jesus said in his illustration the wheat and weeds would grow together and only be obvious at the end of the system. Infact then they would “Shine as brightly as the sun”. (Matt 13:43) - Light is often used to represent understanding in the Bible. - But could that also mean that untill the conclusion of the system, they weren’t especially obvious?

I think that’s missing the point of the parable: the wheat and weeds would be very visible the entire time! What would be tough to distinguish at times is wheat vs weeds. This entails God’s Organization never vanished, and that the wheat was at least a significant minority, if not majority. Otherwise, how does the Gospel really testify that Jesus and God are really in control?

Perhaps we could speculate which Bible translators – (hunted and persecuted for changing the Bible to common languages) were among the ones trying to keep the truth alive.

But if speculation is the best you can offer, then what good is that? Is the historical testimony of the spreading of the Gospel that weak that speculation is all you can go by?

Also there have been many little groups or even brave individual clergy men who have identified what they considered non-Biblical doctrines – (and were usually labeled Heretics, tortured and destroyed.)

This is where specific names and places are crucial to establishing a historical testimony. Can you name just 5 genuine Christians between 100AD and 1800AD? If not, then the historical record demonstrates no Christianity - no wheat, only weeds - for 1850 years, directly contradicting Our Lord’s promises!

I don’t know which – but that would make sense to me.
Yet Jesus said there would be some, and that he would be with them (Matt 28:19,20). And before the end they would stand out!

Some only at the very end, or some throughout the ages?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I’m pleased to see you don’t subscribe to the excuse “you need the NWT to believe what you do - and probably changed that to suit yourselves.” Thank you.

The real question there is: how far corrupt was the KJV that the NWT was needed at all?

I used to wonder: “How come we point to these church councils as evidence the Trinity got invented later – but ignore the fact the Bible Canon was confirmed by the same councils?!”

A more pertinent question is: in the process of these councils inventing apostate doctrines, why did they preserve the Bible at all? True apostate Christendom should have destroyed all manuscripts and corrupted all translations. Yet apostate Christendom preserved the manuscripts and were the ones making hand-copies all these centuries! Not one scholar will deny this.

But then I found a table at the back of our “scriptures inspired” book, (sorry don’t have it with me - will describe from memory) This table showed all the lists that have been found of the “inspired books” going back to the early 2nd century!

Who made and preserved these lists? Apostate Christianity should have destroyed or corrupted them.

Sure the Catholic Church confirmed these lists as well – but it was already well known which were true and which were not inspired.

Define “well known”? As in well published and preserved historical documents?

 

[Regardless]

Hi Regardless,
First let me say that I have learned a lot form your remarks.

You might have that a little backwards. Maybe the Catholic council specifically chose certain books BECAUSE Jesus quoted from them. And what did the people do for the first several hundred years of Christianity that didn’t have a written bible as we do? How do you think they learned about Jesus? Word of mouth and Tradition.

That sounds fair enough.

 

[Regardless]

Still …w/ a Coke.

Ha! I love your popcorn guy!