Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

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So do you believe they were in a kind of “waiting room” until Jesus paid the Ransom?
Is that what you call purgatory?

One thing from your post however. - That means people aren’t in hell yet? They might be assigned there at the resurection? - Do I understand right?

These are serious questions. I’m not being sarcastic or trying to catch you out. 😉 I just don’t quite see how it all adds up. Thanks for your reply!
The “waiting room” was essentially different ‘levels’ of Sheol/Hades. This is how Luke 16:19ff (The Rich man and Lazarus) is to be understood. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ The plain reading of this text indicates there is place people go after death. The upper regions of Hades was “Abraham’s side” (a.k.a. Paradise, Lk 23:43) and the lower regions was tormenting fire. This is precisely why the “imprisoned spirits” were visited by Christ after He died in 1 Peter 3:19, 4:5f. You obviously wont agree with this, but the plain reading of these texts makes this not some outrageous interpretation.
 
I see. Thanks.
So do you believe they were in a kind of “waiting room” until Jesus paid the Ransom?
Is that what you call purgatory?

One thing from your post however. - That means people aren’t in hell yet? They might be assigned there at the resurection? - Do I understand right?

These are serious questions. I’m not being sarcastic or trying to catch you out. 😉 I just don’t quite see how it all adds up. Thanks for your reply!
Oh, quite all right.

I guess you could call it a waiting room; that function anyway. "Abraham’s Bosom, as scripture calls it. Other posters have described it pretty well. We take the story of Lazarus and the rich man as representing a true possilbe situation that existed in the Old Testament times prior to the resurrection. These places were emptied when heaven and gehenna were opened up by the ransom. So people can be in hell now.

Not purgatory. Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, purgatory is a place of cleansing of any residual non-deadly sins persons who have died may still have. Then they go to heaven.

Bodies and souls will be joined at the resurrection, the unrighteous to a physical punishment, and the righteous to a physical paradise new earth with God tabernacling among men.
 
Ah. Thanks. I will have to re-read your post in more detail. It seems to explain stuff I am confused about.

I think it is often a failing in Religions. They will “assume” they know what the other believes.
We need to ask " but if that is the case: what about…?"

Jehovah’s Witnesses get that all the time. People hear something (often a half-truth from a fierce critic) and assume that must be the truth. Sometimes we meet some bizarre mis-conceptions! I once had someone asserting we didn’t believe in Jesus! 🤷
“You have to use your Bible!” is another favourite. I was once told Charles Russel wrote the NWT! I said: “You muust believe he was doing it from heaven then, bacause he had been dead for 40 years when it came out!” Ha 😃
(It is a strange thing to have someone trying to convince you something you* don’t *believe is wrong!) :confused:

Thanks for your reply. I will re-read it now. 👍
Regardless,

I too know what you mean and it is a bit frustrating as we Catholics have been wrongly accused of worshiping Mary for years. Only God knows our true worship right?👍

I would like to take this time to respectfully apologize for any misunderstanding I have had about JW’s beliefs in the past and look forward to reading more about your faith.

I don’t want to hijack this thread so I will just be lurking in the background.🍿

Peace be with you!!!
 
There are a few references to purgatory in the Gospels. Jesus says in Matthew 18.34-35 “The Lord was now angry, so he handed his servant over to be punished, until he had paid his whole debt.” Jesus added, “So will my heavenly Father do with you, unless you forgive sincerely your brothers and sisters from the heart.”

We have to ask ourselves this very important question: And what will the heavenly Father do to us if we do not forgive sincerely our brothers and sister? What is he going to do to us if we do not forgive sincerely? Because Jesus says that the heavenly Father will do the same thing to us as He spoke about in the parable Matt 18:23-35.

Therefore, if we forgive but not sincerely, then the heavenly Father will punish us not permanently but temporarily. This is called in the Catholic Church, “Temporary punishment,” or, “Purgatory” which comes from the word, “Purging or cleansing” or the Latin word is, “Pur-ga-re” because the spirit or soul has to undergo a cleansing process for its hypocrasy, sin. Purgatory should not be confused with eternal punishment, e.g. “eternal fires of hell.”

So, there’s a purgatory where a spirit is saved but has to undergo a purging or a cleansing process. Think of it like this: “Imagine that I have a stain on my shirt, then I have to throw the T-Shirt in the wash machine.” So, too, it is with the soul. It has to undergo a cleaning, a cleansing of its attitude and sin.

While the soul that has been completely evil and disobedient, and has refused God’s mercy and Love, will undergo an eternal seperation from the Holy Spirit, God. Such seperation can be seen in Luke 16:19-31. where the rich man had been eternally seperated from God, because he refused to listen to the Moses’ law and the prophets. Not only did he refuse to listen to Moses’ law and the prophets, but he and his 5 brothers lived uncharitably and selfishly, thinking only about themselves.

In connection with purgatory, Jesus says in John 14:12, "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.

This is so true, because in the Catholic Church there are many who have done greater works. For instance, Saint Padre Pio, the saint who slept only for 3 hours and ate very little, and, likewise, was known to receive assualts and attacks from the devil. The devil was known to appear to the Saint in all sorts of forms, trying to lure him to sins of impurity and disobedience. He would appear to him in beastly apparitions, or as his spiritual director, or as one of his close friends, or as his guardian angel. Also Saint Padre Pio was known to speak with his guardian Angel who would guide him to speak many other languages, to prophesy, to bilocate (Bilocate means he could be at 2 places at once.) he had the gift of healing, he raised a little boy who had accidently drowned in a bath tub. He was known to speak other languages which he had never studied or learnt. He would speak perfectly and fluently in French to French pilgrams. It is said that the Saint spoke German to German pilgrims, but he never even studied German. He had the gift of prophecy, he healed a lot of people from incurable illnesses, such as cancer, paralysis, and even blindness.

Saint Padre Pio is considered one of the greatest miracle workers in the Catholic Church, but not the least, because there are many other saints who certainly have done miracles no less than Saint Padre Pio. Saints such as Saint Gerard Majella, or Saint Francis of Assissi, or Saint Francis of Paola, or Saint Mary of Agreda, or Blessed Margaret of Castello, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, and even the former deceased Pope - Blessed Pope John Paul 2, was known to cure people from incurable illnesses under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There’s a book about his miracles called, "Miracles Of John John Paul II) by Pawel Zuchniewicz. Exellent book! ignatius.com/Products/MJP-H/miracles-of-john-paul-ii.aspx
 
How was I “wrong, wrong, wrong” when you agreed “it is only a matter of time before” the Kingdom will be set up on earth? That’s my point. Jesus said 2,000 years ago the Kingdom was “at hand” and even arrived. The JWs say it still hasn’t arrived.

They are forbidden from doing independent Bible study, including doing word searches and examining the Greek words.
True.
As an exJW I can say that we were not forbidden to read the Bible by ourselves, but if we questioned their teachings, well, that could get one disfellowshipped. We did examine Greek words as well as Hebrew.

But while people said to the op to not allow them in her door, you all have allowed one or two in yours. And I can tell you, this conversation will exhaust you and end up nowhere. 😃
 
No.

Jesus opened the gates, so any saint who dies now will go to heaven. At the future resurrection, all the righteous and the unrighteous will be reunited with their physical bodies, the unrighteous to eternal torment, and the righteous to a new physical earth where they will live with God. Heaven and earth will be the same thing. Everyone will have spiritual bodies, but not spirit bodies.

Both Christendom and the Watchtower believe in a “paradise earth” but unlike Watchtower teaching God will dwell among men on the paradise earth. Paradise earth will be heaven, no difference between the two.

The Old Testament saints are at the heavenly banquet now, along with the New Testament saints.
As mentioned ,I do not wish to offend anyone,just say a few truths.
The watchtower,( this sadly will upset many) I believe the leader to be of the darkside,I will not mention what at this time, I do research into leaders of various Faiths,and know only too well what is involved ,I pray for those who visit me J.W’s ,they are amazed at my findings,they really need to look into just what it is they have got themselves into, and of course understand the Bible instead of being ,it seems dictated to.I do have a friend who was into the J.W’s side but now having found out for himself Thanks to our Lord he is out of it. Again as mentioned they deny the resurrection in the Flesh. Yet in their Bible it states
in Luke 24 vs 39-43…Touch me and see For a spirit doe’s not have flesh and bones as you see I have…he also ate a piece of Broiled fish…What part of this scripture do they not understand ,it is very sad ,when they are dedicated to what they believe.
Blessings to all.
 
As an exJW I can say that we were not forbidden to read the Bible by ourselves, but if we questioned their teachings, well, that could get one disfellowshipped. We did examine Greek words as well as Hebrew.

But while people said to the op to not allow them in her door, you all have allowed one or two in yours. And I can tell you, this conversation will exhaust you and end up nowhere. 😃
jessaka, when did you become Catholic and how did you end up converting from JW?

I would love to hear your story if you wouldn’t mind posting it. 🙂
 
If you want to learn more about purgatory, then I suggest a book about Catherine of Genoa, called: The Life and Doctrine of Saint Catherine of Genoa. Near to the very end of the book, she wrote a treastise on purgatory. She literally wrote her mystical experience about purgatory and how purgatory works on the soul and why God uses Pugatory.

She illustrates the difference between the fires of hell and the fires of purgatory. She says that the fires of purgatory is God’s burning love which cleanses the soul. It is the love of God, the fire of God, which burns away the sin. Thus, once the soul has been cleansed by this fire of God’s love, and if the soul had a wish to return to the fire of God’s love, it would feel no pain, because the sin has been purged away and can no longer cause pain in the soul. It is sin itself in the soul which causes the soul to feel the purging effects, the pain itself.

Very interesting!

It you want to read her treatise on purgatory, here is the web address:

ewtn.com/library/spirit/catpur.txt
 
Here’s a question: Does God wish his church to be a church of mysticism and mystics, that is, that He wish His church to contain the supernatural people influenced by the Holy Spirit?

The answer is in John 14:12

Yes, God has willed and desired that His Church be mystical, containing the supernatural mystics.

Jesus says in Matthew 18:15-20, “If your borther has sinned against you, go and point out the fault, when the two of you are in private, and if he listens to you, you have won your brother. If he doesn’t listen to you, take with you one or two others, so that the cause may be decided by the evidence of two or three witnesses. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembled Church. But if he doesn’t listen to the Church, then regard such a one as a pagan, or a publican.”

The question we must ask ourselves: Which church was Jesus Christ speaking about?

Which Christian Church do I go to?

Considering that there are about one to two new Christian churches opening up each week, since they can’t get along, so they break away, separate, and, it is considered that there are over 38,000 Christan denominational churches world-wide. Why is this? What would be the reason for this? What would be the reason for so much fragmantations in Christianity?

Well, which church was Jesus Christ talking about, or refering to:

Did Christ wish that there be thousands and thousands of break away churches? Of course not!

In the beginning there was the one church and it must be still here today with us. But which church was he talking about? Was he talking about the Pentecostal churches, or the Lutheran Church, or the Assemblies of God, or the Presbyterian Church, or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the Catholic Church, or the other 38,000 Christian denominational churches?

Which church was Jesus Christ speaking about if your brother will not listen to you or the church? So which Church do you go to if Christ was refering only to His one church which is inseparable and indestructible? Well, which One-Whole-Church established by Jesus Christ do you go to, in order to have your brother corrected? Which one was he talking about… since there are as many as over 38,000 different Christian denominational churches to go to? Can I go to any of them?

The Church Jesus Christ established over 2,000 years ago, and, can this church be separable or destroyed? Is it with us still today?
 
As mentioned ,I do not wish to offend anyone,just say a few truths.
The watchtower,( this sadly will upset many) I believe the leader to be of the darkside,I will not mention what at this time, I do research into leaders of various Faiths,and know only too well what is involved …
Who is our leader?
 
I know what you mean, I have a similar problem with one of your co-religionists with whom I talk from time to time. It’s sometimes quite funny to see the facial expression when I “conceed”, agree with them and say “yes that is an unbiblical belief [dramatic pause] but then I never did believe it and neither does the church!”
Yes, it’s easy to assume. What belief was that?

On the other hand I have had a protestant (I can’t remember which denomination) deny his church taught the Trinity. (I politely assured him it did, but he insited not) The next time I saw him he had asked his pastor and had been shocked to learn they did! :rolleyes:

And when my parents were studying the Bible with JW’s they invited the minister over and told him they were learning things from the Bible that were different to what the presbyterian church taught. The minister asked for an example, (dead go to heaven) then denied the church taught it and claimed a third idea was true (something about sprouting up again like the wheat of the field.)
Dad handed him a Bible and asked him to show where it said that. He suddenly remembered he had another appointment and left. 😃 He never came back.

What did you JW workmate mistakenly think you believed?
 
Yes, it’s easy to assume. What belief was that?

On the other hand I have had a protestant (I can’t remember which denomination) deny his church taught the Trinity. (I politely assured him it did, but he insited not) The next time I saw him he had asked his pastor and had been shocked to learn they did! :rolleyes:

And when my parents were studying the Bible with JW’s they invited the minister over and told him they were learning things from the Bible that were different to what the presbyterian church taught. The minister asked for an example, (dead go to heaven) then denied the church taught it and claimed a third idea was true (something about sprouting up again like the wheat of the field.)
Dad handed him a Bible and asked him to show where it said that. He suddenly remembered he had another appointment and left. 😃 He never came back.

What did you JW workmate mistakenly think you believed?
I find it very sad how liberal protestantism is conforming more and more to the spirit of the age, it’s unsurprising in a way that such protestants don’t know what they believe(as a corporate ecclesial grouping) any more.

now as for my friend there have been quite a few straw-men put forward over the last few months but the main ones recently have been on the nature of the Trinity and how we worship statues.

My view being at least try and debunk the God I believe in rather than erroneously assuming I’m a tri-theist(believe in three gods) or a modalist(one person of God with three faces) or some variation on these themes.

The fact that we don’t worship statues is another point she has trouble coming to terms with, It doesn’t matter how often I say something along the lines of I don’t worship it I know it’s not God, its an aid to prayer, I go on to point out the biblical instances of images in worship but she’s having none of it. but how and ever we are getting there.
 
jessaka, when did you become Catholic and how did you end up converting from JW?

I would love to hear your story if you wouldn’t mind posting it. 🙂
I am not a Catholic. There was nothing else to put on my profile. (I just went back to profile and saw I could type it in, so I put None.

The JWs kicked me out; I returned a year later, found I couldn’t believe and left.

I have been in Hinduism and Buddhism. I don’t think I can become a Catholic because I have lost so much faith in the Bible, but I love going to Mass because the spirituality there is like no other Christian Church. I thought I could become a Catholic, but there are things in which I don’t believe, and then there are just as many things that I do believe in.
 
I am not a Catholic. There was nothing else to put on my profile. (I just went back to profile and saw I could type it in, so I put None.

The JWs kicked me out; I returned a year later, found I couldn’t believe and left.

I have been in Hinduism and Buddhism. I don’t think I can become a Catholic because I have lost so much faith in the Bible, but I love going to Mass because the spirituality there is like no other Christian Church. I thought I could become a Catholic, but there are things in which I don’t believe, and then there are just as many things that I do believe in.
Oh, okay.

God has you on a journey and I hope it leads you to the Truth of Jesus and His Church.

Many people have initial problems with the Catholic beliefs, get yourself a Catechism and read it along with the Bible. It may help.

The best thing, IMO, is that you are no longer JW. Continue going to Mass, it is beautiful and I’m glad you like it.
 
Thank you. I would say that you have to believe in the Bible in order to believe in catechism.
 
Thank you. I would say that you have to believe in the Bible in order to believe in catechism.
The catechism explains the teachings of the CC. You don’t have to believe in the Bible in order to learn the teachings of the CC.

It’s knowledge, that’s all.
 
The catechism explains the teachings of the CC. You don’t have to believe in the Bible in order to learn the teachings of the CC.

It’s knowledge, that’s all.
Miriam beat me to it.😃

Belief in the Church comes first, since her tradition is what produced the bible.

Jessaka, you mentioned that you have lost faith in the bible. Could you expand upon that a little bit? BTW, I was a JW for 25 years and I just became Catholic this past Easter, so I may understand a little bit of where you might be coming from. One of my brothers and my father were also JW’s and they are now both new age buddhists that also blends daoism and hinduism.
 
Here’s a question: Does God wish his church to be a church of mysticism and mystics, that is, that He wish His church to contain the supernatural people influenced by the Holy Spirit?

The answer is in John 14:12

Yes, God has willed and desired that His Church be mystical, containing the supernatural mystics.

Jesus says in Matthew 18:15-20, “If your borther has sinned against you, go and point out the fault, when the two of you are in private, and if he listens to you, you have won your brother. If he doesn’t listen to you, take with you one or two others, so that the cause may be decided by the evidence of two or three witnesses. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembled Church. But if he doesn’t listen to the Church, then regard such a one as a pagan, or a publican.”

The question we must ask ourselves: Which church was Jesus Christ speaking about?

Which Christian Church do I go to?

Considering that there are about one to two new Christian churches opening up each week, since they can’t get along, so they break away, separate, and, it is considered that there are over 38,000 Christan denominational churches world-wide. Why is this? What would be the reason for this? What would be the reason for so much fragmantations in Christianity?

Well, which church was Jesus Christ talking about, or refering to:

Did Christ wish that there be thousands and thousands of break away churches? Of course not!

In the beginning there was the one church and it must be still here today with us. But which church was he talking about? Was he talking about the Pentecostal churches, or the Lutheran Church, or the Assemblies of God, or the Presbyterian Church, or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the Catholic Church, or the other 38,000 Christian denominational churches?

Which church was Jesus Christ speaking about if your brother will not listen to you or the church? So which Church do you go to if Christ was refering only to His one church which is inseparable and indestructible? Well, which One-Whole-Church established by Jesus Christ do you go to, in order to have your brother corrected? Which one was he talking about… since there are as many as over 38,000 different Christian denominational churches to go to? Can I go to any of them?

The Church Jesus Christ established over 2,000 years ago, and, can this church be separable or destroyed? Is it with us still today?
CoRedeemer, Regardless has been the ducking this very subject ever since I’ve asked him, and that’s been about 2 years. I really pray that he at least tries to answer this with you, but I wouldn’t hold your breath. I’ll share with you a quote from one of their publications:

The Watchtower Society uses the parable of the “Faithful and Discreet Slave” to justify that a new religion would become prominent in the Last Days. This is referred to at Matthew 24:45-47; (NWT)

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.”

The parable of an appointed slave is the primary Scriptural support the Watchtower Society uses that following Watchtower leaders, the Governing Body, is a requirement of salvation in the Last Days. The Watchtower teaches that the Slave that provides spiritual food is the entire group of their 144,000. In reality, up until 1976 the doctrines of the organisation were decided upon by a single person, the President of the Watchtower Society. This was limited to Russell, Rutherford and finally Knorr. Since 1976 doctrine has been approved by the members of the Governing Body.

The Watchtower makes the claim that:

“Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually.” Watchtower 1981 Mar 1 p.24

If that is true, who was the Slave immediately preceding Russell?
 
I am not a Catholic. There was nothing else to put on my profile. (I just went back to profile and saw I could type it in, so I put None.

The JWs kicked me out; I returned a year later, found I couldn’t believe and left.

I have been in Hinduism and Buddhism. I don’t think I can become a Catholic because I have lost so much faith in the Bible, but I love going to Mass because the spirituality there is like no other Christian Church. I thought I could become a Catholic, but there are things in which I don’t believe, and then there are just as many things that I do believe in.
Hi

Get yourself a Catholic Bible and you will notice that the NWT is very different and maybe that is why you lost your belief in the bible. Please don’t give up on the Bible until you have read a Catholic one. And as was stated get a Catholic Catechism.
The Mass is a GREAT start. You are headed in the right direction!👍

The DR is good as is the RSV-CE.

God be with you
 
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