Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

[Phyllo]

This is what some of the church fathers has to say about this scripture. 1Sam 28:14
From the Haydock:

Ver. 14. Understood that it was Samuel. It is the more common opinion of the holy fathers, and interpreters, that the soul of Samuel appeared indeed; and not, as some have imagined, an evil spirit in his shape. Not that the power of her magic could bring him thither, but that God was pleased for the punishment of Saul, that Samuel himself should denounce unto him the evils that were falling upon him. See Ecclesiasticus xlvi. 23. (Challoner) — The passage is decisive; (Tirinus) he slept and he made known to the king, and shewed him the end of his life, and he lifted up his voice from the earth, in prophecy, &c. Those who have called in question the reality of Samuel’s apparition, seem not to have remembered this passage. (Haydock) — Yet his soul was not united to his body, (Salien) nor was he adduced by the power of the devil, but (Du Hamel) by a just judgment of God, to denounce destruction to the wicked king. (St. Augustine, &c.) (Tirinus) — The woman, beholding Samuel, fled out of the place, to Saul’s companions, and left him alone with the king, ver. 21. — Adored Samuel with an inferior honour, as the friend of God, exalted in glory. (Salien) — That Samuel really appeared, is the more common opinion of the fathers. (St. Augustine, Cura. xv.) (Worthington

 

[carlaterrell]

The best response is you are quite happy being Catholic. I use this and they always get quiet and stare then I tell them by and close the door. It may remind them of a time before they got mixed up in a false religion.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Eh? When did they do that? Are you sure?

The last publishing was some time in the mid 90s. I tried to order one last year from the head quarters in NYC but they returned the letter saying they didn’t have one and to check a local JW branch. I went in on a Sunday and asked some lifetime JWs and they had never heard of the Kingdom Interlinear, but they then asked the leader and he said they weren’t made anymore. Still they checked the book shelf and only saw the current magazines and select books.

I found a copy to download but I prefer hardback, and the cheapest on Amazon is $100.

 

[T_More]

The last publishing was some time in the mid 90s. I tried to order one last year from the head quarters in NYC but they returned the letter saying they didn’t have one and to check a local JW branch. I went in on a Sunday and asked some lifetime JWs and they had never heard of the Kingdom Interlinear, but they then asked the leader and he said they weren’t made anymore. Still they checked the book shelf and only saw the current magazines and select books.

I found a copy to download but I prefer hardback, and the cheapest on Amazon is $100.

This sounds about right. I have 2 copies of the 1969 (purple) and the 1985 (navy blue) versions. Most JW’s have never even heard of these publications. When I was an active JW, I had gotten the 1985 version for myself (around 1990-1991) from my local Kingdom Hall. Somewhere along the way I lost it. About 2 years ago I acquired the same version in a used book store for a $1.

These publications are really quite damaging to the New World Translation. All one has to do is look below the Greek words used from the Westcott and Hort translation on the left, and then look at the New World Translation that is on the right hand side of the column. It’s astounding to see words added and taken away. It’s no wonder they believe what they believe. They simply don’t know any better.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The Bible gave clear direction to the Israelites on talking to the dead.

True, but the Bible gave numerous prohibitions, all of which were broken at one time or another.

As we have seen the Hebrew scriptures teach they are not conscious in many places. Pointing to a future resurrection as their hope. (Dan 12:13, Job 14:13-15, Eccl 9:5.)

There are different ways this can be understood. A person in a coma is not conscious, but still alive in a real sense. Likewise, a soul in Hades lacks the faculties to smell, touch, etc, and thus isn’t consciously experiencing normal life as we are. So to simply say the dead are not conscious doesn’t automatically exclude anything.

In fact, if you examine Hebrew terms like Rephaim, here is what the Insight on the Scriptures Encyclopedia says:The hebrew term rephaim is used in another sense in the Bible. Sometimes it clearly applies not to a specific people but to those who are dead. Linking the word to root meaning “drop down relax” some scholars conclude that it means “sunken powerless ones.” In texts where it has this sense, the [NWT] renders it “those impotent in death” and many other translations use renderings such as “dead things,” “deceased,” and “dead.” - Job 26:5, Psalm 88:10, Proverbs 2:18, 9:18, 21:16, Isaiah 14:9, 26:14, 19
In other words, the hebrew term rephaim when applied to dead souls means something akin to a ghost or a soul separated from a body. This is not the typical hebrew term for ‘death’, which also indicates a distinction. Even the JW rendering of “impotent in death” gives off the impression this person is not dead as in non-existent but rather dead but lacking power to perform common functions. It would be a tautology to say the “dead dead”.

This also ties into a study of the Hebrew term Sheol - the place of the departed souls. The JW book What does the Bible Really teach says this:Ecclesiastes 9:10 states: “There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” Does this mean that Sheol refers to a specific, or individual, grave site where we may have buried a loved one? No. When the Bible refers to a specific burial place, or grave, it uses other Hebrew and Greek words, not she’ohl′ and hai′des. (Genesis 23:7-9; Matthew 28:1) Also, the Bible does not use the word “Sheol” for a grave where several individuals are buried together, such as a family grave or a mass grave.—Genesis 49:30, 31.
This is correct, Sheol is not used in reference to a grave site or even a mass grave. Thus, Sheol is someplace else. But look how the JW book continues:To what kind of place, then, does “Sheol” refer? God’s Word indicates that “Sheol,” or “Hades,” refers to something much more than even a large mass grave. For instance, Isaiah 5:14 notes that Sheol is “spacious and has opened its mouth wide beyond bounds.” Although Sheol has already swallowed, so to speak, countless dead people, it always seems to hunger for more. (Proverbs 30:15, 16) Unlike any literal burial site, which can hold only a limited number of the dead, “Sheol and the place of destruction themselves do not get satisfied.” (Proverbs 27:20) Sheol never becomes full. It has no limits. Sheol, or Hades, is thus not a literal place in a specific location. Rather, it is the common grave of dead mankind, the figurative location where most of mankind sleep in death.
Notice the official definition given: Sheol is not a literal place, but rather a figurative location. Now, how does this make any sense? Someone dies and travels to a figurative location? If someone ceases to exist in any sense, with their body being a mere corpse, then to go off to sheol makes no sense.

The traditional Biblical, Catholic, and Hebrew view is that while Sheol is not a physical location (since the soul is not made of atoms), it is none the less a real, spiritual location. This renders Sheol an intelligible meaning.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The Commentary on the Old Testament, by C. F. Keil and F. Delitzsch (1973, Vol. II, First Samuel, p. 265), (quote)…“Nevertheless the fathers, reformers, and earlier Christian theologians, with very few exceptions, assumed that there was not a real appearance of Samuel, but only an imaginary one. … an apparent image of Samuel was presented to the eye of Saul through demoniacal arts. Luther and Calvin adopted the same view, and the earlier Protestant theologians followed them in regarding the apparition as nothing but a diabolical spectre, a phantasm, or diabolical spectre in the form of Samuel, and Samuel’s announcement as nothing but a diabolical revelation made by divine permission, in which truth is mixed with falsehood.” (end of quote) PAGE 266 … But the view held by the early church does not do justice to the scriptural narrative and hence the more modern orthodox commentators are unanimous in the opinion that the departed prophet did really appear and announce the destruction of Saul not however in consequence of the magical arts of the witch but through a miracle wrought by the omnipotence of God This is most decidedly favoured by the fact that the prophetic historian speaks throughout of the appearance not of a ghost, but Samuel himself…The prohibition of witchcraft and necromancy Deut xviii 11 Isa viii 19 which the earlier writers quote against this does not preclude the possibility of God having for His own special reasons caused Samuel to appear On the contrary the appearance itself was of such a ]

The commentary is in error about the early church. Simple as that. But if you keep reading the commentary, he says the plain reading of the text shows it was Samuel.

Also, the Deuterocanonical Book of Sirach, chapter 46:20, says this about Samuel:20Even after death his guidance was sought; he made known to the king his fate. From the grave he spoke in prophecy to put an end to wickedness.
So this ancient Jewish commentary plainly says Samuel gave prophecy after death.

 

[Regardless]

Dear “Regardless”,

I will just say this one thing, and then I will no longer read on this thread, …
In spite of sinners in the Church, there are saints who obey and grow in sanctity to be like the Lord, according to how He wants them to be.

Jesus Christ our Lord, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity has given us everything we need to do His will, and be saved. The treasures He gave us are all there for us to use, and when we obey he sanctifies us.

Peace in Our Saviour,

Dorothy

It is obvious to me you have a very strong and beautiful faith.

I hope nothing I wrote offended. (I have been trying to behave myself this time)

All the best Dorothy!

Regardless.

 

[Regardless]

Stay with us Regardless. Don’t leave the thread high-and-dry like you did the other one. Somebody needs to learn something right?

Ha. No, I mean I won’t go on about the “Spirit Medium saw Samuels spirit” scripture.
That is as far as my argument on the subject takes me. I have nothing to add and don’t see the passage as important enough to go on about.
People will either accept the explaination or not. I’d rather move on.

That Trinity discussion I stopped posting on a few weeks back was because I was getting tired of the subject and found I had dozens of (often angry) replies to wade through. Too much.

I am enjoying the “Immortal soul” discussion however! Your opinions especially.

 

[Regardless]

…
The traditional Biblical, Catholic, and Hebrew view is that while Sheol is not a physical location (since the soul is not made of atoms), it is none the less a real, spiritual location. This renders Sheol an intelligible meaning.

Interesting. I will have to study your post better when I have more time.

How do you have Insight books and Bible teach books at hand (in softcopy if I’m not mistaken) Do you have A WT library CD?

 

[Regardless]

And I still haven’t had an answer to my earlier question:

“Does the Catholic Church believe people before Jesus went to heaven?”

Anyone?

 

[pablope]

And I still haven’t had an answer to my earlier question:

“Does the Catholic Church believe people before Jesus went to heaven?”

Anyone?

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23).

newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm

It was fitting for Christ to descend into hell. First of all, because He came to bear our penalty in order to free us from penalty, according to Isaiah 53:4: “Surely He hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows.” But through sin man had incurred not only the death of the body, but also descent into hell. Consequently since it was fitting for Christ to die in order to deliver us from death, so it was fitting for Him to descend into hell in order to deliver us also from going down into hell. Hence it is written (Hosea 13:14): “O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite.” Secondly, because it was fitting when the devil was overthrown by the Passion that Christ should deliver the captives detained in hell, according to Zechariah 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.” And it is written (Colossians 2:15): “Despoiling the principalities and powers, He hath exposed them confidently.” Thirdly, that as He showed forth His power on earth by living and dying, so also He might manifest it in hell, by visiting it and enlightening it. Accordingly it is written (Psalm 23:7): “Lift up your gates, O ye princes,” which the gloss thus interprets: “that is–Ye princes of hell, take away your power, whereby hitherto you held men fast in hell”; and so “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,” not only “of them that are in heaven,” but likewise “of them that are in hell,” as is said in Philippians 2:10.

 

[CoRedeemer]

And I still haven’t had an answer to my earlier question:

“Does the Catholic Church believe people before Jesus went to heaven?”

Anyone?

Depends how you see heaven. Some people eat ice cream saying, “This is heaven!” While others end up taking a trip to some secluded island on a blue lagoon and say, “My God, this is heaven!!!” When Lazarus from Luke 16:19-31 had entered into his rest with Father Abraham, and because he had had a very harsh and cruel life, therefore, to him entering into such a paradise might seem to him as heaven as heaven can be, because it is so relaxing and alleviating, yet it isn’t. The same thing applies to people who had died before Jesus.

And as I said before, “it depends how you see heaven.”

Jesus said, “For, there where your treasure is, there will your heart be,” or there will your spirit be!"

But, what are our treasures? When we die thus our spirit will desire the very thing which we treasure most. But for some this treasure can be seen in Luke 16:19-31 where the rich man’s treasure was his loved ones, his 5 brothers. Nevertheless, someone else’s treasure might be alcohol, or certain drugs, cocain, heroin, marijuana, or even attached to sins of impurity, or attached to money or land or investment property, or for someone else it is God and only God. And that is why Jesus says, “Store up treasures for yourselves where no moth or rust can destroy, where no thief can break-in and steal. For there where your treasure is, there will your heart or spirit be!”

Start storing your treasures!

“And so I tell you: use filthy money to make friends for yourselves, so that, when it fails, ** these people may welcome you into the ETERNAL HOMES.”** Luke 16:9

This is what the rich man failed to do in Luke 16:19-31, he failed to use filthy money to make friends for himself, so that, when it had failed, Lazarus would have welcomed the rich man into his eternal home.

 

[Bible_is_truth]

I’m being visited about 4 times now by a well-informed JW who seems to enjoy my Catholic response to her points. Her next visit will be about what the kingdom of God really means to an individual. From her handout: “Many believe that Jesus died for them. Yet, how can one man’s death almost 2,000 yrs ago mean life for others today?” I gather the Holy Spirit has no place in their faith. How do I respond to her? Scripture to quote?
Thanks,
Yolene

I handle J.Ws very well,
you know they speak of Anti Christ,just one example ask them who Jesus really is, they will reply, the Arch Angel Michael in Heaven ,Jesus on Earth,they do not accept Jesus as God in the Flesh, they also say Jesus resurrected in Spirit, yet the Bible say’s in Luke 24 v 37-43. this tells me that he was in body,a spirit cannot eat or drink . ( Satan believes in Jesus ,he cannot say Jesus came in the Flesh, as scripture say’s to test first) ,this you will know if the spirit, apparition, or person is of God. there are many other examples I can give ,they still come to me after 2 years, they believe they are converting me, perhaps, sadly I know too much of the top leaders,and who they worship, my research into many Faiths gives me the protection I need ,sadly for them in being deceived, it really makes them believe they
serve God.
Blessings Just to add, I do not jest , some of their booklets ,Handouts, actually have Demonic signs in the pictures if you really look at them, be careful, also do they give a prayer before and after ,nope.

 

[mackbrislawn]

And I still haven’t had an answer to my earlier question:

“Does the Catholic Church believe people before Jesus went to heaven?”

Anyone?

No.

Jesus opened the gates, so any saint who dies now will go to heaven. At the future resurrection, all the righteous and the unrighteous will be reunited with their physical bodies, the unrighteous to eternal torment, and the righteous to a new physical earth where they will live with God. Heaven and earth will be the same thing. Everyone will have spiritual bodies, but not spirit bodies.

Both Christendom and the Watchtower believe in a “paradise earth” but unlike Watchtower teaching God will dwell among men on the paradise earth. Paradise earth will be heaven, no difference between the two.

The Old Testament saints are at the heavenly banquet now, along with the New Testament saints.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

How do you have Insight books and Bible teach books at hand (in softcopy if I’m not mistaken) Do you have A WT library CD?

What Does the Bible Really Teach is available for free on the JW website, but I was given a booklet as well. The Insight books are at the library, but I also have seen quotes (e.g. Rephaim) online.

 

[Regardless]

No.

Jesus opened the gates, so any saint who dies now will go to heaven. At the future resurrection, all the righteous and the unrighteous will be reunited with their physical bodies, the unrighteous to eternal torment, and the righteous to a new physical earth where they will live with God. Heaven and earth will be the same thing. Everyone will have spiritual bodies, but not spirit bodies…

The Old Testament saints are at the heavenly banquet now, along with the New Testament saints.

I see. Thanks.
So do you believe they were in a kind of “waiting room” until Jesus paid the Ransom?
Is that what you call purgatory?

One thing from your post however. - That means people aren’t in hell yet? They might be assigned there at the resurection? - Do I understand right?

These are serious questions. I’m not being sarcastic or trying to catch you out. I just don’t quite see how it all adds up. Thanks for your reply!

 

[Regardless]

What Does the Bible Really Teach is available for free on the JW website, but I was given a booklet as well. The Insight books are at the library, but I also have seen quotes (e.g. Rephaim) online.

The insight books are at your library? Cool.
I didn’t think they were available on our website.

We only have anti-Jehovah’s Witness books at our library. Our congregation once took our “Proclaimers” book and the Bible teach book to donate. - But they never found there way to the shelves.

 

[Regardless]

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23)…

Ah. Thanks. I will have to re-read your post in more detail. It seems to explain stuff I am confused about.

I think it is often a failing in Religions. They will “assume” they know what the other believes.
We need to ask " but if that is the case: what about…?"

Jehovah’s Witnesses get that all the time. People hear something (often a half-truth from a fierce critic) and assume that must be the truth. Sometimes we meet some bizarre mis-conceptions! I once had someone asserting we didn’t believe in Jesus!
“You have to use your Bible!” is another favourite. I was once told Charles Russel wrote the NWT! I said: “You muust believe he was doing it from heaven then, bacause he had been dead for 40 years when it came out!” Ha
(It is a strange thing to have someone trying to convince you something you* don’t *believe is wrong!)

Thanks for your reply. I will re-read it now.

 

[Theophorus]

It is a strange thing to have someone trying to convince you something you* don’t *believe is wrong! :

I know what you mean, I have a similar problem with one of your co-religionists with whom I talk from time to time. It’s sometimes quite funny to see the facial expression when I “conceed”, agree with them and say “yes that is an unbiblical belief [dramatic pause] but then I never did believe it and neither does the church!”

 

[Phyllo]

The insight books are at your library? Cool.
I didn’t think they were available on our website.

We only have anti-Jehovah’s Witness books at our library. Our congregation once took our “Proclaimers” book and the Bible teach book to donate. - But they never found there way to the shelves.

I purchased the Reasoning From Scriptures,and the Insights books at Amazon. They were used books. The insight books looked brand new.