Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

[CoRedeemer]

My post drew some good replies, some with further scriptural quotes.
I have read them all. Thanks.
And of course people have every right to weigh up the scriptural reasoning I use and decide it is explained away or negated by other scriptures.

But what do you all think of that Encyclopedia Britannica quote on soul? (post 45?) (in part: " …Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology …")
Is the encyclopedia in error saying Christendoms immortal soul concept comes from greek beliefs rather than the Bible?

And my own question to the Immortal soul argument: “Why did Jesus give his life as a ransom for our sins if we live on in heaven or hell regardless?”
I seriously don’t understand that.

P.S. - I will still get around to addressing the Revelation 6 statement! Also – the scriptures where Paul talks about going to heaven. (I might be able to cover the transfiguration point with the same reasoning - and now I have one in Matthew to research! ) They are first on my “Urgent to do” list. Sorry. I’m trying to keep up.

This is a great subject to discuss!
Thanks for your interest friends.

King Solomon believed in the life after death, and that is why he said, “Find me a woman who consults the spirits of the dead,” therefore he shows the possibility of the dead being alive in the spirit too, and even Sammuel’s spirit had said in front of King Saul, “Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?” So you see that it was Sammuel’s spirit that spoke with King Saul and not the devil. For, if it had been the devil, don’t you think that scripture would have inserted and written the devil’s name rather than Sammuel’s if he had been talking with the devil? Nevertheless, scripture doesn’t even remotely come close to say that King Saul had been talking to the devil. So where did you get that idea when, 1 Sammuel 28:15 clearly writes Sammuel’s name in fine print, that King Saul had been talking with Sammuel and not the devil. Well, scripture uses Sammuel’s name so many times that I don’t see one mention of the devil’s name being written during King Saul’s conversation with the spirit of Holy Sammuel? Why? Because scripture says as it writes and it writes as it says.

Well, Sammuel said and not the devil, “Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?” It doesn’t say nor is it written as: “The devil said: Why did you disturb me by summoning me up,” but, " Sammuel said: Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?" Notice the difference?

Well, how do you explain Jesus’ transfiguration talking place on the mountain with eye witnesses: Peter, James and his brother John, saw Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah? Well, how can Jesus be speaking with Moses if he is dead and the dead have no life after death? How? Who were they seeing in the person of Moses unless it be the spirit of Moses? In other words, they were seeing MOSES!

Here is something which we can share in common: The Psalmist says in Psalm 62:8, “Pour out your hearts before the Lord!”

 

[CoRedeemer]

If you are look for the conversation of King Saul with the spirit or soul of Sammuel, look up 1 Sammuel 28:3-25

 

[Layman_F]

Jesus body died, and God resurected him to “Spirit” life

I’ve always been curious how the NWT could miss this. Who raised him in three days?

 

[Dorothy]

I’ve always been curious how the NWT could miss this. Who raised him in three days?

Because Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity, and He is 100% God and 100% man, it was the Father and Jesus Himself who raised Him from the dead, in the power of the Holy Spirit!

Jesus said: “I and the Father are one” John 10:30

and

Jesus said “He that has seen me has seen the Father” John 14:9

That is what the Catholic Church teaches, and the Church has been given authority by God to speak truth with regard to faith and morals.

 

[Layman_F]

Because Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity, and He is 100% God and 100% man, it was the Father and Jesus Himself who raised Him from the dead, in the power of the Holy Spirit!

Jesus said: “I and the Father are one” John 10:30

and

Jesus said “He that has seen me has seen the Father” John 14:9

That is what the Catholic Church teaches, and the Church has been given authority by God to speak truth with regard to faith and morals.

Yeah, but the NWT catches so many scriptural references to Jesus’ divinity, I’m always surprised that such a glaring one was left. I also find the name of the Watchtower’s translation as a red flag, New World Translation? Even the name Jehovah’s Witness points to a trinity because the bible teaches we’re to be witnesses of JESUS…

 

[djd83]

So does the Church teach that people who died before Jesus went to to heaven?

Yes.
Matthew 8:11 (NWT): “But I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens.”

 

[djd83]

Good point.

It does create a contrast to an indefinite “great crowd no one can number” a few verses later.

Otherwise, I have no answer.

Numerically? Possibly.
Symbolically? Not necessarily.

Just as the 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1000 to signify importance) may not have to contrast with the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9, in JW teaching, the 144,000 is the same as the 24 elders (12 + 12) of Revelation 4:4. Even though these two numbers are different, they are still considered the same in JW teaching.

Not to mention in Genesis 15:5, God told Abraham his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. Consider also what St. Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26-29:

“You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” In Ephesians 4:4,5, Paul said there is “one hope to which you were called…, one faith, one baptism.” Christians, Abraham’s descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, have the hope of going to heaven.

There are a lot more than 144,000 stars in the sky.

 

[Regardless]

In Revelation 6:9-11 why were the souls of the dead given a white garments? …
It says in Revelation 6:11 "Then each one of them was given a white garment,…
Here is a question: How are these souls given a white garment if they are dead,…

This is what I mean, Regardless, that you can’t use one scripture verse to contradict another part of scripture! …

Anyways! I hope you can explain to me about the dead in Revelation 6:9-11 and how do they receive the white garment if they are dead? How do they receive a white garment if they are dead and are told to wait?..How does God … give them a white garment… How?

Um… did you read my post 53 that you quoted?

 

[Regardless]

…
Well, how do you explain Jesus’ transfiguration talking place on the mountain with eye witnesses: Peter, James and his brother John, saw Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah?

Well the transfiguration is easy. Matt 17:2-8 is the account I found.

Notice verse 9. "and as they descended from the mountain, Jesus commmanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one untill the son of man is raised from the dead.”

It was a vision.

 

[Regardless]

I’ve always been curious how the NWT could miss this. Who raised him in three days?

God.

What have I missed? I sense a trap about to catch me here!

 

[Regardless]

Numerically? Possibly.
Symbolically? Not necessarily. …

Not to mention in Genesis 15:5, God told Abraham his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. Consider also what St. Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26-29:

“You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”…
.

Now that is an interesting scripture to raise!

But I will get ahead of myself! I still haven’t sat down and answered the earlier questions about Christians believing they are going to heaven! If I explain JW’s conclusion on that I will have a foundation to explain these other superb scriptures you are raising!

“No more distractions Regardless!” I will address that in my next post.

 

[djd83]

Okay

Thank you for taking the time to read and answer our scriptures/questions!

 

[CoRedeemer]

King Solomon believed in the life after death, and that is why he said, “Find me a woman who consults the spirits of the dead,” therefore he shows the possibility of the dead being alive in the spirit too, and even Samuel’s spirit had said in front of King Saul, “Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?” So you see that it was Samuel’s spirit that spoke with King Saul and not the devil.

For, if it had been the devil, don’t you think that scripture would have inserted and written the devil’s name rather than Samuel’s if he had been talking with the devil? Likewise scripture doesn’t even remotely come close to say that King Saul had been talking to the devil. So where did you get that idea when, 1 Samuel 28:15 clearly writes Samuel’s name in fine print, that King Saul had been talking with Sammuel and not the devil. Well, scripture uses Samuel’s name so many times that I don’t see one mention of the devil’s name being written during King Saul’s conversation with the spirit of Holy Sammuel? Why? Because scripture says as it writes and it writes as it says.

Well, Samuel said and not the devil, “Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?” It doesn’t say nor is it written as: “The devil said: Why did you disturb me by summoning me up,” but, " Samuel said: Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?" Notice the difference?

But here, Regardless, I have one special question for you. Look up 1 Samuel 28:19 and read the part where Samuel says to King Saul, "By tomorrow, you and your sons shall be with me when Yahweh delivers the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines."

Ask yourself: "Was Samuel not right when he said, “You and your sons shall be with me when Yahweh delivers the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines?” So, Samuel predicts that King Saul and his sons will join him in the after life, for he says, “You and your sons shall be with me.” So you see how the life after death doctrine is not a Greek teaching but has been an old Jewish teaching.

Amen, peace and many blessings

 

[Regardless]

…
I love 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 where St. Paul expresses his desire to die… be in heaven with the Lord. …“So we feel confident always. We know that while living in the body we are exiled from the Lord, living by faith, without seeing, but we dare to think that we would rather be away from the body to go and live with the Lord!” 2 Corinthians 5:6:8

What’s that! Saint Paul wants to be away from his what! Body! So St. Paul is saying that he wants to be away from his body so that he can be with who? …The Lord!..

Apologies for taking so lon on this question.

If you have all been following this rogue JW’s ramblings:
Post 45 quoted scriptures and encyclodedia to explain briefly: - The Hebrew Scriptures (Old testament) taught the “soul” dies with the body. But there is a hope of a future resurrection.

Post 47 acknowledged that although Jesus died to pay the ransom, God resurrected him to heaven as a spirit later.

But hold on: If the dead are… well… dead, (waiting for an earthly resurrection,) and an immortal soul is a pagan idea the early church adopted (refer that encyclopedia comment in post 45 again), how come Chrisitan writers several times talk of their expected heavenly reward?

Have the JW’s conveniently ignored a whole stack of scriptures?

First, note it is only ones after Jesus death that are spoken of as having this hope.
In contrast Peter told a crowd of Jews: “The family head David . . . both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. Actually David did not ascend to the heavens.” (Acts 2:29, 34) The scriptures also show Job, Daniel and John the baptizer (good men who all died before Jesus) likewise, did not go to heaven.

Infact Jesus said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”—John 3:13. Therefore, according to Jesus’ own words, no man had gone to heaven for all those 4,000 years of human history down until his day!

But Jesus* was* resurrected to heaven! (not because he had an immortal soul that lived on regardless - but because God raised him to spirit life)
What was his new job there? The Bible book of Daniel foretold that Jesus would be “given rulership.” and “His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership … his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”—Daniel 7:13, 14.

However, it is important to note here that Jesus is not to rule alone. The Bible says: “And the kingdom and the rulership . . . were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom.” (Daniel 7:27) These expressions “the people” and “their kingdom” let us know that others will rule with Christ in God’s government!

Who are these “holy ones” that will rule with Jesus?

Jesus told his faithful 11 apostles that they would be rulers with him in God’s kingdom. He told them: “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” (Luke 22:28, 29) - And at John 14:2,3. Jesus says: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you”
Later, the apostle Paul and Timothy were among those included in this covenant, or agreement, for a kingdom. Paul wrote Timothy: “If we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings.” (2 Timothy 2:12)

But the total number who go to heaven will be small when compared with the many who will receive life on earth under Kingdom rule. Jesus told his disciples: “Have no fear,* little flock,* because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”—Luke 12:32.

At Revelation 14:1, 3 the Bible says: “And I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the [heavenly] Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand . . . who have been bought from the earth.” Only 144,000 persons are seen with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on heavenly Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22) But note: They came from the earth! (Resurrected to heaven in this case)

So rather than all good people going to heaven, the Bible reveals that only 144,000 tried and faithful persons will be taken there to rule with Christ.

At least this is what Jehovah’s Witnesses understand the Bible says.
For a better explaination on who go to heaven, check this link to their site:
watchtower.org/e/20100201a/article_03.htm

Perhaps these same scriptures could be explained to mean something different. I am open to suggestions.

I guess the next question is: "What about all the other faithful people who are not of this “little flock”?

 

[Layman_F]

God.

What have I missed? I sense a trap about to catch me here!

LoL. Not a trap, but an example of (in my opinion) an error of the Watchtower’s agenda. So, you say Jesus was raised from the dead in three days. I agree completely. The temple was indeed raised in three days, even though it took 46 years to be built. I believe that the translation used by the Watchtower is errant. It has been changed just enough to push an agenda that Jesus isn’t divine, but rather Michael. By systematically changing key verses the translators cut the ties that bind that man on Earth to the Father. We people are threefold, with body, spirit and soul; but we limit God to one category.

Would you agree that Jesus was Michael the Archangel incarnate as man?

 

[Regardless]

Okay

Thank you for taking the time to read and answer our scriptures/questions!

My dear friend. It is an absolute pleasure. It is forcing me to do lots of valuable and long overdue study as well, so thank you!

I just hope and pray it is of some use in improving Bible understanding.

It is nearly midnight in my part of the world. :yawn: Goodnight.

 

[T_More]

Well the transfiguration is easy. Matt 17:2-8 is the account I found.

Notice verse 9. "and as they descended from the mountain, Jesus commmanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one untill the son of man is raised from the dead.”

It was a vision.

This simply does not lend itself to your position. The Apostles were given the ability to see something that they simply could not see with their own power. Verse 3 states the Moses and Elijah were conversing with Christ. How could that be if they are concious of nothing at all?

Of course it was a vision, Moses and Elijah had long passed away!

Why would Christ “deceive” them with something that could/would not happen? Think about what just happened in the previous chapter…

The problem, Regardless, is that it seems to be lost on you why Jesus would allow them to see this? Think about it…

 

[djd83]

Well the transfiguration is easy. Matt 17:2-8 is the account I found.

Notice verse 9. "and as they descended from the mountain, Jesus commmanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one untill the son of man is raised from the dead.”

It was a vision.

Well, a vision can mean “something seen”… specifically “a supernatural appearance that conveys a revelation”. Seeing Moses, Elijah, and Jesus ‘dazzlingly white’ I suppose counts as supernatural.

Additionally, in Jewish tradition, Elijah was taken up to heaven bodily, apparently through a special grace of God, and the circumstances of Moses’ death and burial were mysterious as well (cf. 2 Kings 2:11; Deut. 34:6; Jude 9).

 

[djd83]

God.

What have I missed? I sense a trap about to catch me here!

click

John 3:19-21 (NWT):

“In answer Jesus said to them: ‘Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ Therefore the Jews said: ‘This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was talking about the temple of his body.”

So… If God raised Jesus, and Jesus said he would raise Jesus…

Jesus = God

 

[Catholic_Dude]

In Acts 24:15 the NWT (and all Bibles say):
and I [Paul] have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
The question is: eJWs teach that death is the end, there is no hell, a person simply dies and decomposes and ceases to exist. So why does Paul say the UNrighteous are going to be resurrected? This makes no sense if the grave is the end; rather it only makes sense if souls live on forever in punishment or reward.

The JW booklet I got called What does the Bible Really Say explains that the “unrighteous” in this verse are those people who never heard the Gospel, such as Muslims, Hindus, Chinese, African tribes, etc, and they will be resurrected and given an second chance. The problem is, the Bible never teaches this ‘second chance’, but more importantly the term “unrighteous” here means evil-doer, not simply innocent. It is contrasted to ‘righteous’ for a reason.

The JWs say the same thing for John 5:28-29,
28Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
Again, the JWs say the non-believing ignorant folks will be resurrected, but this text plainly says the resurrection for those who did evil will be a resurrection to punishment.