Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

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I didn’t post from hate; I post from concern. If you haven’t been reading this thread, then you don’t realize that I was a JW. I have love for them as I do all people, but I also feel it necessary to warn others when great harm can be done in the name of religion. The JWs happen to be a religion that causes great harm to others, and if you don’t think that shunning is harmful, well, you just don’t know. Those who leave the JWS are often suicidal and alone and are abandoned by family and friends. Think how you would feel if your family members could never speak to you again just becaue you left or were kicked out. Now that is hell.
See talking about religions that cause great harm to others. Wasn’t it the Pope of the time that was in meetings with Hitler? Don’t Catholics from Germany kill Catholics in America, Canada, England and Russia? Who comes first the country or God? If you would give your life for your brother but not your country what does that say about you?

In any organization there are rules. If you break the rules then you face the consequences. I know of some stores that ban you from shopping there if you are fired. People that molest children (I am not saying anything about anyone in particular here) are not allowed to go near children without supervision. Does that cause harm? Well the child molester might think so.
What about the blacklisting of communists? Don’t even get me started on that lol.
 
The name Jesus obviously comes from the ancient Aramaic language and is pronounced as, “Yeshua” and it means, “God who saves!”

Actually the Holy Spirit has a few names, “The Spirit of Truth,” “the Advocate,” “the Intercessor,” “the teacher,” “the helper,” “the comforter,” “the Paraclete,” or in Greek: Parakletos. May we never forget the icons or pictures or symbols used to describe the Holy Spirit; such as: The dove which is commonly used and known. Fire, which the Apostles received on their heads - this is why Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope wears that funny pointy hat which is called a myter - a symbol of the flame that acted on Pentacost. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit as, “The finger of God,” after casting out a demon.

Or let me shorten it for you:
  1. Water
  2. Fire
  3. Annointing
  4. Cloud and light
  5. The Seal
  6. the finger of God
  7. The Dove
The Holy Spirit is also known as, “Rau” which means, “Air or spirit”

Jesus also calls God the Father as, “Abba” which means in Aramaic, “daddy!” or “dad!”

Actually, there was one bad case in Brisbane where a priest instead of Baptizing children, “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” He did something totaly contrary, “In the Name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer, and of the Sanctifier. Amen.” Don’t worry… they got rid of him after he put a statue of Buddha infront of the Altar and started celebrating the Holy Mass." He had done a lot of weired and uncatholic practices. Rome intervinved after a man recorded it all on camera and sent the video to Rome.

Also we shouldn’t call God the Father, “Joseph brown” or humanize the name or otherwise we’ll end up destroying the sequence of the name of God. This would destroy the essence of worship. Obedience to the Church is number one. He who doesn’t agree with the church will slowly begin to find him or herself losing graces and slowly departing into rebellion.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
The Peace of the Lord be with you always.
Well my point was that you don’t learn an awful lot of the personality of the Holy Spirit in the bible. God had a lot of titles too but they weren’t really names were they? God of Armies, God of the Isrealites, God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, God of love. I mean we know his name is Yahweh or Jah (praise you Jah or Hallelujah) or Jehovah or whatever translation you want to use but those other references were just titles. To call the Holy Spirit the finger of God and not see how someone could get confused that it is God’s active force is just ignoring the obvious.
 
Pope John Paul II:

“Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.” (General Audience — July 28, 1999)

“If the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is to convince the world precisely of this “judgment,” undoubtedly he does so to continue Christ’s work aimed at universal salvation. We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, the Paraclete is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation.” (The Holy Spirit as Advocate; General Audience — May 24, 1989)

“[The Church] is because of all that more serviceable for her mission of salvation for all: God ‘desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.’ … Accordingly, what is in question here is man in all his truth, in his full magnitude. We are not dealing with the “abstract” man, but the real, “concrete”, “historical” man. We are dealing with “each” man, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery. … The [Second Vatican] Council points out this very fact when, speaking of that likeness, it recalls that “man is the only creature on earth that God willed for itself”. Man as “willed” by God, as “chosen” by him from eternity and called, destined for grace and glory-this is “each” man, “the most concrete” man, “the most real”; this is man in all the fullness of the mystery in which he has become a sharer in Jesus Christ, the mystery in which each one of the four thousand million human beings living on our planet has become a sharer from the moment he is conceived beneath the heart of his mother.” (Encyclical Redemptor Hominis 5, 13)
I wish I could see your point here but I am just not getting it. What exactly are you saying here? I guess you are saying that only God can judge who will be damned. So by saying that you are saying that we shouldn’t judge JW’s? Is that it?
 
His experience was being cut off from everything, not a burning fire. Then he experienced God’s love. Do you believe he had this experience of God. This being cut off to him meant that he has always been cut off from God, not that he was literally in hell. If we are to take visions literally, then the book of Revelation’s vision are all literal.

And I believe in Universal Salvation:

Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Luke 6: 27, 28, 35, 36. Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you, that you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just, and on the unjust. For if you love them which love you, what reward have you? do not even the publicans the same? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5: 44-48.

Could this language be employed concerning God, if he consigned the sinner to an endless hell? And if he did torment his enemies forever, should we be like him, if we loved our enemies.

The fact that we are like God only when we are kind to those who injure us, demonstrates that God is the same, and as he is without variableness, or even the shadow of turning," James 1: 17, the same yesterday to-day and forever, Heb. 13: 8, it follows that he will always manifest himself with impartial kindness towards all. The spirit of this language is in eternal hostility to the idea of

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endless torment, and inculcates the restitution of all souls to Him whose property they are. We must treat each other as God treats us, in order to be merciful as God is merciful. If God is not merciful to all who offend him, where is our obligation? and if we must not be unmerciful because he is not, how can he eternally punish? God forbids us to overcome evil with evil, and demands of us that we overcome evil with good.

tentmaker.org/books/Bibleproofs2.html#BD

The Son of Man is come to save that which was lost. Luke 19: 10.

What man of you having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it.
Do people still believe in Hell? Weird.
Hell was another name for Gehenna. This was a pit outside the wall of Jerusalem that was constantly fueled with sulphar to keep the fires burning hot. All the garbage in the city was thrown into this pit. Another use was for cremating the bodies of criminals. The confusion arose when parents would say you better be good or you are going to burn forever and ever in Gehenna. It was very literal but by no means meant that they would be conscious during this time.
Our creator is a god of love. His wishes for everyone to gain life and for no one to be destroyed let alone be tormented in Hell forever. Humans being as sick and demented as we are to each other would not wish this on our worst enemy but we think that God is capable of such a thing. Shame on us.
When God destroyed the wicked at the time of flood he felt sad that it had to be done but because of the influence of the fallen angels and their offspring (the men of fame) the world had become incredibly wicked and unnatural so it needed to be done. Does this sound like a God that wants people to be tormented?
 
True, but the Bible gave numerous prohibitions, all of which were broken at one time or another.

There are different ways this can be understood. A person in a coma is not conscious, but still alive in a real sense. Likewise, a soul in Hades lacks the faculties to smell, touch, etc, and thus isn’t consciously experiencing normal life as we are. So to simply say the dead are not conscious doesn’t automatically exclude anything.

In fact, if you examine Hebrew terms like Rephaim, here is what the Insight on the Scriptures Encyclopedia says:The hebrew term rephaim is used in another sense in the Bible. Sometimes it clearly applies not to a specific people but to those who are dead. Linking the word to root meaning “drop down relax” some scholars conclude that it means “sunken powerless ones.” In texts where it has this sense, the [NWT] renders it “those impotent in death” and many other translations use renderings such as “dead things,” “deceased,” and “dead.” - Job 26:5, Psalm 88:10, Proverbs 2:18, 9:18, 21:16, Isaiah 14:9, 26:14, 19
In other words, the hebrew term rephaim when applied to dead souls means something akin to a ghost or a soul separated from a body. This is not the typical hebrew term for ‘death’, which also indicates a distinction. Even the JW rendering of “impotent in death” gives off the impression this person is not dead as in non-existent but rather dead but lacking power to perform common functions. It would be a tautology to say the “dead dead”.

This also ties into a study of the Hebrew term Sheol - the place of the departed souls. The JW book What does the Bible Really teach says this:Ecclesiastes 9:10 states: “There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” Does this mean that Sheol refers to a specific, or individual, grave site where we may have buried a loved one? No. When the Bible refers to a specific burial place, or grave, it uses other Hebrew and Greek words, not she’ohl′ and hai′des. (Genesis 23:7-9; Matthew 28:1) Also, the Bible does not use the word “Sheol” for a grave where several individuals are buried together, such as a family grave or a mass grave.—Genesis 49:30, 31.
This is correct, Sheol is not used in reference to a grave site or even a mass grave. Thus, Sheol is someplace else. But look how the JW book continues:To what kind of place, then, does “Sheol” refer? God’s Word indicates that “Sheol,” or “Hades,” refers to something much more than even a large mass grave. For instance, Isaiah 5:14 notes that Sheol is “spacious and has opened its mouth wide beyond bounds.” Although Sheol has already swallowed, so to speak, countless dead people, it always seems to hunger for more. (Proverbs 30:15, 16) Unlike any literal burial site, which can hold only a limited number of the dead, “Sheol and the place of destruction themselves do not get satisfied.” (Proverbs 27:20) Sheol never becomes full. It has no limits. Sheol, or Hades, is thus not a literal place in a specific location. Rather, it is the common grave of dead mankind, the figurative location where most of mankind sleep in death.
Notice the official definition given: Sheol is not a literal place, but rather a figurative location. Now, how does this make any sense? Someone dies and travels to a figurative location? If someone ceases to exist in any sense, with their body being a mere corpse, then to go off to sheol makes no sense.

The traditional Biblical, Catholic, and Hebrew view is that while Sheol is not a physical location (since the soul is not made of atoms), it is none the less a real, spiritual location. This renders Sheol an intelligible meaning.
A person that is in a coma for any amount of time is considered brain dead which is dead. It could have very well been the demons that brought about this apparation. Considering Saul’s being tormented by voices and having lost God’s blessing the demons could very well have been playing with Saul knowing that he had lost God’s favour and therefore his protection.
 
A person that is in a coma for any amount of time is considered brain dead which is dead. It could have very well been the demons that brought about this apparation. Considering Saul’s being tormented by voices and having lost God’s blessing the demons could very well have been playing with Saul knowing that he had lost God’s favour and therefore his protection.
I think that everyone believe that a person’s lifeforce leaves the body and returns to God. The bible is very specific though about that lifeforce having any consciousness whatsoever though. So whether the lifeforce and the memory of the person return to God or whether the actual Soul returns to God in a state of lethargy really doesn’t matter in my opinion.
Everyone believe in a resurrection and that the righteous will get life and the unrighteous will be judged. I think that’s all that really matters isn’t it?
The living are conscious that they will die but the dead are conscious of nothing at all. Not until the resurrection anyway.
 
I am not sure what your definition of a sect is, and Hatred is a very strong word to use when generalizing. I do see animosity between different denominations, but sometimes it can be justified by scripture.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[a] that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it

You mention both Mormons and JW’s in your response; well both of these denominations definitely preach a different Jesus than that of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Many Protestant Denominations. Our calling from God is to be with him for eternity; he wants us to choose him and life instead of the flesh. Being our choice to follow or not, it is also our choice to choose which “lens” we choose to view both scripture and God through. Politically correct or not, all religions are not equal.

If one could discern that Jesus is God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, from both sacred scripture and early Christian testimony, then how could you not want to save your fellow brother and sisters who have been deceived, just as the serpent deceived Eve? How people go about preaching this is what you may dislike based on some examples you have come across, but if this is done through love and compassion then we are obeying God’s calling revealed to us through scripture.
Hmmm I definetly see your point. I mean Jesus called the Pharasee’s vipers and serpents and disliked them emensely for their mistreatment of the Jews. On the other hand I really don’t think that the two beliefs are all that different. We all believe in the whole story of Christ, that he was born of immaculate conception. That he existed as God or at least the second in command to The Almighty God in heaven before coming down to earth. We believe that he died for our sins and taught us a better way to live. We believe that he is our repurchaser and therefore our owner. We believe that we can only gain life through the acknowledgement of his ransom sacrifice and we believe that we have to follow his example while on earth.
The bible says that Jesus said that the Father is greater than I. It says that it was not up to Jesus to decide whether James and John could sit at the right and left hand of his throne but only up to the Father. It tells us that only the Father knows when judgement day will come and not event he son knows this.
By all of this we know that the Father holds a higher position than the Son and that the Holy Spirit holds another position altogether. Now whether we believe that all three are actually stuck together or stand side by side really doesn’t seem that important to me.
The bible says that all those calling on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved. It says you will know my people by the love they have have, one for the other.

This seems so much more important than all that other stuff. And how do all these doctrines make Christ simple? It seems to me that they make something very straightforward into something extremely complicated. Sort of like the Jews do with all of their little laws and restrictions. Remember how the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath because his disciples picked some grain and ate it as they were walking through a wheat field? The bible cautions us about people that over think things and make things incredibly complicated.
Even the children enjoyed sitting and listening to what Jesus had to say.
We have to believe in Jesus. We have to accept the ransom sacrifice and therefore dedicate our lives to him through water baptism and we have to love our enemies, our brothers and most of all God.
As far as I know both religions do just that. Granted the Mormons seem to be a little out of touch. It seems like every time I talk to one of them they have a different story than the previous one. Very confusing. But at least they are preaching and that is exactly what Jesus commanded us to do. If nothing else at least they get people thinking about God. “That’s all I have to say about that.” - Forrest Gump
 
Do people still believe in Hell? Weird.
Hell was another name for Gehenna. This was a pit outside the wall of Jerusalem that was constantly fueled with sulphar to keep the fires burning hot. All the garbage in the city was thrown into this pit. Another use was for cremating the bodies of criminals. The confusion arose when parents would say you better be good or you are going to burn forever and ever in Gehenna. It was very literal but by no means meant that they would be conscious during this time.
Our creator is a god of love. His wishes for everyone to gain life and for no one to be destroyed let alone be tormented in Hell forever. Humans being as sick and demented as we are to each other would not wish this on our worst enemy but we think that God is capable of such a thing. Shame on us…
Wow. I don’t log on for a few days and look what I’ve missed! 😃

Hi Riddle-me –this! A lot of your logic is identical to what the JW’s reason. 👍 Have you studied with the JW’s? Or are you just a logical thinking person?

It was the idea of God torturing people forever that disturbed many of the early JW’s. Of course it doesn’t fit logic that a God of love would do such a thing! But when they started researching - they discovered the Bible didn’t teach hell anyway!

Early on in this thread I had nice duels with Coredeemer and others on all the scriptures that say the dead aren’t conscious. (So can’t be in torment)

“The soul that sins will die” in Ezekiel 18:4 was one. But also the Bible says in Romans things that totally contradict punishment after death at all.
Romans 6:7 says: “He who has died has been acquitted of his sins.”
And Romans 6:23 says: “The wages sin pays is death.”

So the Bible says: sinners die, and are aquitted of their sins! No mention of extra punishment afterwards! :rolleyes:
Which is of course far more like the God of love we are told about. He has given us life, and at worst, will take that gift back. 🤷 Not torture us!
And even then - we have all these promises of a future resurrection where the dead get a second chance. Any unfair treatment in earlier cases will be worked out then! 😉
 
Well this might come as a surprise to you but there has to be a reason for people to brainwash other people. What do they get from brainwashing people? From what I understand the leaders of that religion do not have homes or cars or even bank accounts. They live in a little apartment at the headquarters and most of the people don’t even know who they are. They live out their lives and give up everything. Who is doing the brainwashing?
The Catholic Church for instance has hellfire and damnation of the soul. What do they get out of this? They scare the living **** out of people and make it so they don’t question anything that they say. They gain immense power as well. I remember watching an old movie that the archbishop said that the King could take your life but the Archbishop could send your soul to hell. Who would you be more inclined to follow?
The Pope is probably one of the most famous people on the planet.
The Vatican is the only religious empire on earth. It is actually a country inside a country and Italy has no juridiction inside its walls. They are also the riches religion on the planet. They follow one leader named the Pope who was orginally elected.
What does the Catholic Church get? Fame, riches and power.
By using your line of reasoning then wouldn’t the Catholic Church qualify as a brainwashing cult more than the JW’s? I am not saying that the Catholic Church is a cult I am just curious how you tell the difference between one and the other.
Look! Most people today are very negative about Christianity because they were brought-up incorrectly about it. Then they think that either the church or the Lord’s roof might come crumbling down if they set a foot in the church. Or they think that a lightening bolt will come crashing across the sky and strike them dead if they enter into a church or say the name of Jesus. 😃

Unfortunately a lot of people feel left-out and as if God extremely hates them or despises them simply because they don’t understand Him. NO! Just keep praying, keep searching and searching for God and don’t give up! Don’t allow the wrong interpretation of God’s mercy and the fear of hell scare you from the truth and love of God.

The people who are in most danger today are youngsters, teenagers, children. WHY? Because they are prone to the lies of this world, the propaganda of freemasonary, suicide, or rampage, anarchism, alocholism, or homosexualism, anal sex, or polygamy, or homo-polygamy, or they’re not sure of themselves, or they can’t find any peace because they’re constantly worrying about their peers or not being loved or wanted in life. Thus they feel used and abused, or they think that God doesn’t love them, that their parents don’t love them, since all they ever hear about God is only negative!

Just keep searching and don’t allow the wrong concept of God to steer you away from Him, because He is actually and really real. Just look at all the good things that came from people who believed in God and what charity they did for their country and for the little man. Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr. Albert Einstein, and etcetera. However all religions are not the same. Atheistic or agnostic religions are very dangerous, since atheism has its own religions: Communism, Satanism, Nazism or socialistic nationalism, and etcetera. Also Freemasonary is an agnostic religion. May no man tell you that they aren’t a religious organization because they are!
 
Well my point was that you don’t learn an awful lot of the personality of the Holy Spirit in the bible. God had a lot of titles too but they weren’t really names were they? God of Armies, God of the Isrealites, God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, God of love. I mean we know his name is Yahweh or Jah (praise you Jah or Hallelujah) or Jehovah or whatever translation you want to use but those other references were just titles. To call the Holy Spirit the finger of God and not see how someone could get confused that it is God’s active force is just ignoring the obvious.
Well, have you got a problem then tell it to Jesus!

Tell it to Jesus and tell him, “You didn’t know what you were saying, Paraclete, finger of God, the spirit of truth, the advocate, the comforter, and etcetera.” Well, tell it to Jesus! Tell Jesus that, “you have confused me,” with your paraclete, spirit of truth, finger of God, etc, etc. etc.!"

I feel comfortable with the Catholic Jesus, LOL, 😃 😃 😃
 
Romans things that totally contradict punishment after death at all.
Romans 6:7 says: “He who has died has been acquitted of his sins.”
And Romans 6:23 says: “The wages sin pays is death.”

So the Bible says: sinners die, and are aquitted of their sins! No mention of extra punishment afterwards! :rolleyes:
Which is of course far more like the God of love we are told about. He has given us life, and at worst, will take that gift back. 🤷 Not torture us!
And even then - we have all these promises of a future resurrection where the dead get a second chance. Any unfair treatment in earlier cases will be worked out then! 😉

Hi,
Pardon me for jumping in.🙂
Look at Romans 6 v 7 again, the context it is saying,= For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Read from 6 v 1- 14 you will understand more of what is meant, basically Paul’s Gospel doe’s not lead to more sin,since those who belong to Christ have Died to Sin ( as explained in the following verses ) Christians died to sin when they were baptized into Christ, ( Roms 6 v 7 ) Paul is not arguing that baptism magically destroys the power of sin. Baptism is an outward,physical symbol of the inward,spiritual conversion of Christians.
I’m not taking sides here only pointing out that 6 v 7 it doe’s not mean literally dead and buried,
Blessings to you. .
 
If there werre a burning hell, why didn’t God warn Adam and Eve about it or even Cain and Abel? Why didn’t the OT teach it?
 
It is true, the communist teachings of equality are very good, but the way it is presented isn’t. It is a totalitarian government where people spy on each other and turn each other in. If you don’t believe in the party you go to prison. The JWs are also a totaliatarian government, and if you question any of the teachings, you are turned in and can get kicked out. Here is a study:
The Watchtower Society utilizes manipulative techniques and environment to recruit and maintain their membership. According to Robert Lifton (1961), a psychologist who examined American soldiers subjected to mind control techniques by the Communist Chinese, there are eight criteria that are used evaluate if the environment that people have been subject to has been a mind control totalist environment. The Watchtower was found to utilize each of his criteria to varying degrees in their indoctrination process. The cult identifying criteria set out by exit-counselor Steven Hassan (1990) also proved conclusively that the Watchtower (now abbreviated to ‘WT’) exerted behavior, information, thought and emotional control to maintain their membership. The study then proceeded to identify the persuasive techniques of the propagandists in selecting their messages to have maximum effect on their audiences. Various pieces of WT literature were analyzed and found to utilize similar techniques and thus could be appropriately classed as propaganda. Leon Festinger’s cognitive dissonance theory (Festinger, 1957) was then examined to help explain the psychological reasons why both people become JW’s and why people remain JW’s even though there are more credible alternatives. Clinical hypnotic processes were also examined and compared with cultic applications. And again through their literature and social structures, Jehovah’s Witnesses were shown to employ these, especially in their recruitment processes. The conclusion affirmed that the WT applies a variety of powerful psycho-social techniques to recruit and maintain membership and summarized some different evangelism pointers and approaches when dealing with JW’s or those interested in becoming Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The article continues here:
culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=358&Itemid=8
 
Here is another little tidbit when speaking of hell:

" The words forever, eternity, eternal and everlasting NEVER appear in the original Greek Bible. The word that is translated into these words is the word “eon”.

The word “eon” does NOT mean eternity. It means a specific period of time, with a beginning and an END - so it CAN’T mean eternity because eternity has no end!
 
The bible says that all those calling on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved. It says you will know my people by the love they have have, one for the other.
It depends on which bible, the JW’s New World Translation tried their best to hide this in Romans 10:13, * For whoever calls on the name of Jehovah shall be saved.* This particular verse references Joel 2:32 which states to call on the name of YHWH to be saved. JW theology doesn’t allow for them to call on the name of Jesus except for at the end of a prayer, “in the name of Jesus we pray.” Inspired scripture speaks otherwise in this verse and others. Here Paul clearly states that we must confess with our mouth the name Jesus, that is we must call on the name of the Lord Jesus to be saved.
This seems so much more important than all that other stuff. And how do all these doctrines make Christ simple? It seems to me that they make something very straightforward into something extremely complicated.
Please state the verse(s) in scripture that shows that understanding God the Father and Jesus is simple. Your post showing our need to repent, and to accept Jesus’ sacrifice, and to love others as Jesus did, is spot on! However, if Jesus truly is the One true God, then calling him a created being, a creature, is blasphemy. Just the same, if Jesus truly was the first creation of YHWH, and people make him out to be God, this also is blasphemy to put a creature on the same level as the One and only true God.
Granted the Mormons seem to be a little out of touch. It seems like every time I talk to one of them they have a different story than the previous one. Very confusing. But at least they are preaching and that is exactly what Jesus commanded us to do. If nothing else at least they get people thinking about God.
Every single religion that gathers in an assembly is preaching. I have a weekly bible study going on with a great friend of mine, we are preaching to each other. Are you able to locate in scripture where Jesus or his disciples stated that we are to only read and trust our own personal interpretation of the bible, and then proceed to create our own man made religion based on our own personal interpretations? On the contrary, Jesus and his disciples called for us to stay united in our faith, to believe and teach the same thing.
 
Here is another little tidbit when speaking of hell:

" The words forever, eternity, eternal and everlasting NEVER appear in the original Greek Bible. The word that is translated into these words is the word “eon”.

The word “eon” does NOT mean eternity. It means a specific period of time, with a beginning and an END - so it CAN’T mean eternity because eternity has no end!
To me an interesting verse of what some people refer to Hell is:

Revelation 14:10-11, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

A lot is revealed here. It describes these people as being tormented with fire and brimstone, and the smoke from this torment ascends forever and ever. These people literally have no rest day or night, forever and ever. This definitely does not fit the definition of Soul Sleep, since obviously these people are alive, conscience, and they are aware of their torment. Cross Reference this with Luke 16:19-31, and you can see the exact same thing as described by Jesus.

I am not a Greek Scholar by any means, so I have to use other people’s translation of the Greek Words. According to two different sources, the Greek words that are translated forever and ever are aiōnas and aiōnōn. Both of these sources state these words literally mean “to-ages-of-ages.” I see this consistently translated as “forever and ever” or “from age to age” in multiple translations, and I believe this is accurate based on the Greek.

With that said, the story by Jesus in Luke 16 and this verse in Revelation reveal to us what happens to people who are not saved. They are without a doubt alive and can feel, even though they have died on the earth. They are being tormented day and night, forever and ever, as they are not with God.
 
Hi,
Pardon me for jumping in.🙂
Look at Romans 6 v 7 again, the context it is saying,= For one who has died has been set free from sin.
Read from 6 v 1- 14 you will understand more of what is meant, …
I’m not taking sides here only pointing out that 6 v 7 it doe’s not mean literally dead and buried,
Code:
              Blessings to you. .
Feel free to jump in any time my friend! 🙂

That is interesting. I will re-read the entire chapters with your point in mind.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
To me an interesting verse of what some people refer to Hell is:

Revelation 14:10-11, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
I think this is the next passage I will research. Thanks Kc906.
I have been researchng the “Rich man and Lazarus” scripture too.

I found an interesting thing about the greek word usually translated “torment” - but I will have to get all my facts straight before I reply properly. 😉

Have a good day!
 
Romans things that totally contradict punishment after death at all.
Romans 6:7 says: “He who has died has been acquitted of his sins.”
And Romans 6:23 says: “The wages sin pays is death.”

So the Bible says: sinners die, and are aquitted of their sins! No mention of extra punishment afterwards! :rolleyes:
Which is of course far more like the God of love we are told about. He has given us life, and at worst, will take that gift back. 🤷 Not torture us!
And even then - we have all these promises of a future resurrection where the dead get a second chance. Any unfair treatment in earlier cases will be worked out then! 😉
I see that you didn’t bother to write the whole text of Romans 6:23 but shortened it for your advantage. Why did you deliberately shorten Romans 6:23?, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Hardness of heart is the ruine of character and integrity and honesty. For this reason Paul says in Romans 7:12, “For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, seduced me, and by it killed me.” Yeah right! If sin had killed Paul then how is it that he wrote that letter? 🤷 Was he talking about the literal death in Romans 6:23?

Luke 16:19-31 speaks for itself. It you don’t believe in eternal punishment then surely you believe in Luke 16:19-31. If it was a parable then why did Jesus Christ go to such an effort in detailing the the rich man’s conversation with Father Abraham? Why did he the rich man say that he was in a place of fire?

If it was only a parable or a fable story, then, what holds truth in scripture or the gospels?

**Scripture cannot contradict scripture! **
For instance: When you use scripture to contradict another part of scripture, especially to contradict the gospels, especially to contradict Luke 16:19-31, then you are destroying divinely revealed truth. This, my friend, is a compromise, hence he who does not believe in the gospels as being divinely revealed truths is making it into a divinely revealed lies. If the gospels speak about the life after death and punishment after death, then it is a divinely revealed truth and should not be taken lightly. God, Jesus Christ did not speak about the life after death literally for a joke in Luke 16:19-31. As a matter of fact, Jesus never joked around. Therefore I believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospels and he who does not believe in the Gospels does not believe in Christ. And may that one be excommunicated from him forever as Luke 16:19-31 demonstrates it. AMEN.
 
Wow. I don’t log on for a few days and look what I’ve missed! 😃

Hi Riddle-me –this! A lot of your logic is identical to what the JW’s reason. 👍 Have you studied with the JW’s? Or are you just a logical thinking person?

It was the idea of God torturing people forever that disturbed many of the early JW’s. Of course it doesn’t fit logic that a God of love would do such a thing! But when they started researching - they discovered the Bible didn’t teach hell anyway!

Early on in this thread I had nice duels with Coredeemer and others on all the scriptures that say the dead aren’t conscious. (So can’t be in torment)

“The soul that sins will die” in Ezekiel 18:4 was one. But also the Bible says in Romans things that totally contradict punishment after death at all.
Romans 6:7 says: “He who has died has been acquitted of his sins.”
And Romans 6:23 says: “The wages sin pays is death.”

So the Bible says: sinners die, and are aquitted of their sins! No mention of extra punishment afterwards! :rolleyes:
Which is of course far more like the God of love we are told about. He has given us life, and at worst, will take that gift back. 🤷 Not torture us!
And even then - we have all these promises of a future resurrection where the dead get a second chance. Any unfair treatment in earlier cases will be worked out then! 😉
It is my feeling, and I could be wrong, that the teaching of hellfires entered into religion to scare people away from God, not to bring them to God. Most people have left religions on account of this barbaric teaching. If you come to God out of fear of retribution, then what does that say about you? Perhaps it says that your goodness is immoral because you are doing what is right out of fear and not out of love. But claiming that people will die instead is just as much fear. I rather feel that God, being love, will draw all to him as Jesus said: I will draw ALL unto Me." John 12:32
 
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