Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

[PRmerger]

I think this is the next passage I will research. Thanks Kc906.
I have been researchng the “Rich man and Lazarus” scripture too.

I found an interesting thing about the greek word usually translated “torment” - but I will have to get all my facts straight before I reply properly.

Have a good day!

Oh! You’re back!

You seemed to have abruptly left a previous thread , so I thought you were off the CAFs for good.

So it’s good to see you back.

It does make it appear, though, that you left the previous thread when the questions got too difficult to address from the JW paradigm?

At any rate, I will join you here, but if you would, could you please respond to the questions posed to you earlier? It’s like you abruptly left in the middle of the conversation.

 

[CoRedeemer]

It is my feeling, and I could be wrong, that the teaching of hellfires entered into religion to scare people away from God, not to bring them to God. Most people have left religions on account of this barbaric teaching. If you come to God out of fear of retribution, then what does that say about you? Perhaps it says that your goodness is immoral because you are doing what is right out of fear and not out of love. But claiming that people will die instead is just as much fear. I rather feel that God, being love, will draw all to him as Jesus said: I will draw ALL unto Me." John 12:32

Really, so this means that even Jesus used Hell fire to scare people from religion? And what did Jesus say about Judas Iscariot’s fate, “The Son of Man is going as the Scriptures say he will. But alas for that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed; better for him if he had never been born.” Mark 14:21

Why didn’t Jesus say, “But alas for that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed; it will be like for him as if he had never been born?” Does Jesus say this? … NO!

What is the difference between never being born and being dead spiritually forever and ever. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses - Not much! Since being dead spiritually in the Jehovah’s Witness understanding is not much different from being not born, because any soul that dies is like as if he they had never born.

Therefore when Jesus says, “better for him if he had never been born,” thus he is saying that once born - always born - there’s no such thing as death for Judas Iscariot, and that is why Jesus says, “better for him if he had never been born,” because there is no such thing as death. In other words, it would have been better for Judas Iscariot to never have come into existence since his soul will not die and will have to live with his sin forever and ever. This is why Jesus says, “Better for him if he had never been born.”

If you don’t believe me, then ask yourself, “What is the difference between never being born and eternal death according to Jehovha’s Witnesses?” Nothing they are all the same according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, since they all meet a nothing, a black-out, or they go back into nothing, or they are not aware anymore of their existence. But this isn’t true as demonstrated by Jesus himself. When Jesus says, “better for him if he had never been born,” then Jesus is describing and prophesying the fate of Judas Iscraiot’s soul in hell to his fellow disciples, even seeing his soul in torment. Also that is why Jesus says, “Better for him if he had never been born,” because his eternal sentence is hell fire.

Also HEBREWS 11:4 also says about Abel’s blood. "Because of Abel’s faith his offering was more acceptable than that of his brother Cain, which meant he was upright, and God himself approved his offering. Because of this faith he cried to God, as said in Scripture, even after he died." So you see, even the book of Hebrews speaks about Abel’s spirit crying out to God, even after he died.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture, for if you use scripture to contradict another part of scripture then you are destroying divinely revealed truths.

 

[PRmerger]

I seem to recall somewhere in Genesis about the whole purpose of man was to expand the garden of eden to encompass the entire earth and for man to fill the earth and subdue it. Did he change his mind on that one?

Are you sure that in Genesis it says that this is “the whole purpose of man”?

Now, to be sure, we are commanded to fill the earth and subdue it.

But to declare that is “the whole purpose of man” is, well, adding to Scripture.

It’s like if I tell my daughter, “Fill this cup of coffee and bring it to your father” and she responds, “That’s the whole purpose for my existence!”

As if!

 

[jessaka]

Really, so this means that even Jesus used Hell fire to scare people from religion? And what did Jesus say about Judas Iscariot’s fate, “The Son of Man is going as the Scriptures say he will. But alas for that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed; better for him if he had never been born.” Mark 14:21

It means that these scriptures are misintrepreted. Ask any JW because they know.

Why didn’t Jesus say, “But alas for that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed; it will be like for him as if he had never been born?” Does Jesus say this? … NO!

It certainly would be better to not be born than to not be with God. Heaven is with God; Hell is the absence of God and the sorrow one feels because of it.

What is the difference between never being born and being dead spiritually forever and ever. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses - Not much! Since being dead spiritually in the Jehovah’s Witness understanding is not much different from being not born, because any soul that dies is like as if he they had never born.

Therefore when Jesus says, “better for him if he had never been born,” thus he is saying that once born - always born - there’s no such thing as death for Judas Iscariot, and that is why Jesus says, “better for him if he had never been born,” because there is no such thing as death. In other words, it would have been better for Judas Iscariot to never have come into existence since his soul will not die and will have to live with his sin forever and ever. This is why Jesus says, “Better for him if he had never been born.” Speaking of Judas, this man was vry sorrowful for what he did, so much so, that he went out and hung himself after throwing money in the temple. We have no idea what his afterlife will be. We cannot judge him.

If you don’t believe me, then ask yourself, “What is the difference between never being born and eternal death according to Jehovha’s Witnesses?” Nothing they are all the same according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, since they all meet a nothing, a black-out, or they go back into nothing, or they are not aware anymore of their existence. But this isn’t true as demonstrated by Jesus himself. When Jesus says, “better for him if he had never been born,” then Jesus is describing and prophesying the fate of Judas Iscraiot’s soul in hell to his fellow disciples, even seeing his soul in torment. Also that is why Jesus says, “Better for him if he had never been born,” because his eternal sentence is hell fire.It is you and a some others that need people to burn forever for what they did on this earth in 70 plus years, not God. God desires all to be saved, and I believe that God gets what he desires. I am sure that there is a purification process. Also if the soul is immortal, then it can’t die. Notice in Revelation that the gates of New Jerselum are always open. I can’t see why they would be open for those saved since they don’t desire to leave, but they could easily be open for those who change their views on God and turn to Him.

Also HEBREWS 11:4 also says about Abel’s blood. “Because of Abel’s faith his offering was more acceptable than that of his brother Cain, which meant he was upright, and God himself approved his offering. Because of this faith he cried to God, as said in Scripture, even after he died.” So you see, even the book of Hebrews speaks about Abel’s spirit crying out to God, even after he died.I agree that man is immortal. Those who sin can be placed in a purgatory until they have come to God. There are many possibilites.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture, for if you use scripture to contradict another part of scripture then you are destroying divinely revealed truths.

 

[PRmerger]

It is my feeling, and I could be wrong, that the teaching of hellfires entered into religion to scare people away from God, not to bring them to God.

Hell exists, jessaka, because of God’s great love and mercy.

He offers this place for those who find His Love and Light so odious and repugnant.

Most people have left religions on account of this barbaric teaching

I find it curious that people leave a religion when they don’t like a particular teaching.

Do they then shop around to find a religion that teaches everything that they like?

Does that sound right to you?

Rather, it sounds like someone is shopping around to find a religion that’s created in her image, rather than conforming her beliefs to that which God has revealed.

If you come to God out of fear of retribution, then what does that say about you? Perhaps it says that your goodness is immoral because you are doing what is right out of fear and not out of love. But claiming that people will die instead is just as much fear. I rather feel that God, being love, will draw all to him as Jesus said: I will draw ALL unto Me." John 12:32

Indeed. No one ought to come to God out of fear of retribution.

Thankfully, that is not the Catholic Church’s position.

 

[CoRedeemer]

jessaka:
Jessaka, I don’t know why you quote things from scripture when you fully do not believe all of it. Much like people who quote things from the Ten Commandments but they don’t believe all of the ten. It’s useless for anyone to believe in scripture if they don’t believe everything of it. The passages which you need to believe in like Revelation 14:11 & Luke 13:23-30 & Luke 16:19-31 you are refusing to believe. This would be like reading the Ten Commandments and saying this, “Well, I like this law but I don’t like that law. Oh, this one sounds really good but not this one. Yeah, I like the law where it says honor your Father and Mother but I don’t like the law where it says Keep Holy the Sabbath or Holy Day.”

What? Do you think that scripture is a pizza menu? I don’t understand? You said that it is people like me who need to burn in hell for thinking that there is an eternal hell fire. Well, why don’t you damn Jesus for revealing it to us. Don’t believe in me, believe in Jesus and his Catholic Church. After all the Catholic Church and the Catechism of the Catholic church says number. 1035: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell,** “eternal fire.”** The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

So will Satan and his devils burn in hell forever and ever? Or will they go through purgatory? I don’t think so… So if God didn’t pardon the Angels who refused to obey God and decided not to give him glory, then how much more will he punish those who refused to obey Him and give him honor and glory in this life. Did Jesus not speak about the sin against the Holy spirit and how it is an unforgiveable sin which cannot be forgiven in this life nor in the next. Mark 3:29 “But whoever slanders the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven: He carries the guilt of his sin forever.” Do you know what kind of intense fire you need to domesticate a fallen angel, a demonic spirit? Do you know what kind of fire that is, and you don’t need petroleum for that kind of fire since it is lit by God’s wrath?

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Jessaka, I don’t know why you quote things from scripture when you fully do not believe all of it. Much like people who quote things from the Ten Commandments but they don’t believe all of the ten. It’s useless for anyone to believe in scripture if they don’t believe everything of it. The passages which you need to believe in like Revelation 14:11 & Luke 13:23-30 & Luke 16:19-31 you are refusing to believe. This would be like reading the Ten Commandments and saying this, “Well, I like this law but I don’t like that law. Oh, this one sounds really good but not this one. Yeah, I like the law where it says honor your Father and Mother but I don’t like the law where it says Keep Holy the Sabbath or Holy Day.”

What? Do you think that scripture is a pizza menu? I don’t understand? You said that it is people like me who need to burn in hell for thinking that there is an eternal hell fire. Well, why don’t you damn Jesus for revealing it to us. Don’t believe in me, believe in Jesus and his Catholic Church. After all the Catholic Church and the Catechism of the Catholic church says number. 1035: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell,** “eternal fire.”** The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

So will Satan and his devils burn in hell forever and ever? Or will they go through purgatory? I don’t think so… So if God didn’t pardon the Angels who refused to obey God and decided not to give him glory, then how much more will he punish those who refused to obey Him and give him honor and glory in this life. Did Jesus not speak about the sin against the Holy spirit and how it is an unforgiveable sin which cannot be forgiven in this life nor in the next. Mark 3:29 “But whoever slanders the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven: He carries the guilt of his sin forever.” Do you know what kind of intense fire you need to domesticate a fallen angel, a demonic spirit? Do you know what kind of fire that is, and you don’t need petroleum for that kind of fire since it is lit by God’s wrath?

Helluva a hot topic! So good that U.S. News & World Report featured a cover story about Hell in its January 31, 2000, issue. And in the summer of 1999, both the Pope and the Jesuit magazine, La Civilta Cattolica, were talking about it. They said Hell is not a place, but a state of being in which you suffer from being away from God. To describe such a condition, the Pope said the Bible uses symbolic language. However, some non-Catholic Christians still believe Hell is a physical place where your soul burns in the lake of fire for eternity.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

I think this is the next passage I will research. Thanks Kc906.
I have been researchng the “Rich man and Lazarus” scripture too.

I found an interesting thing about the greek word usually translated “torment” - but I will have to get all my facts straight before I reply properly.

Have a good day!

If you are going to research it then research the word “Tormented” and research whether this scripture is referring to an individual or a group.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Are you sure that in Genesis it says that this is “the whole purpose of man”?

Now, to be sure, we are commanded to fill the earth and subdue it.

But to declare that is “the whole purpose of man” is, well, adding to Scripture.

It’s like if I tell my daughter, “Fill this cup of coffee and bring it to your father” and she responds, “That’s the whole purpose for my existence!”

As if!

Ok then since we are picking at words, it was God’s purpose for the earth. For man to live on the earth in a paradise forever. Why do I say forever? Because it was never God’s intention for man to die and if he didn’t die he wouldn’t leave the earth. Follow? It just makes sense.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

jessaka:
Hmmm I think you are twisting this scripture a little bit my friend. It is saying that God was a witness to Able’s righteousness so that even though he was dead God could attest to it.

 

[Riddle_me_this]

Hmmm I think you are twisting this scripture a little bit my friend. It is saying that God was a witness to Able’s righteousness so that even though he was dead God could attest to it.

(Genesis 4:9-12) ...” 10At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground. 11And now you are cursed in banishment from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood at your hand. 12When you cultivate the ground, it will not give you back its power. A wanderer and a fugitive you will become in the earth….*.

(Deuteronomy 15:23) 23*Only its blood you must not eat. Upon the earth you should pour it out as water.

(Genesis 9:4-7) 4Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man. 6Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man. 7And as for YOU men, be fruitful and become many, make the earth swarm with YOU and become many in it.”

(Deuteronomy 12:22-25) ..… 23Simply be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the soul and you must not eat the soul with the flesh. 24You must not eat it. You should pour it out upon the ground as water. 25You must not eat it, in order that it may go well with you and your sons after you..*.

(Revelation 16:3) 3*And the second one poured out his bowl into the sea. And it became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul died, [yes,] the things in the sea.

So God asks back the blood of a person and that is why Able’s blood is calling out to God.

 

[T_More]

Ok then since we are picking at words, it was God’s purpose for the earth. For man to live on the earth in a paradise forever. Why do I say forever? Because it was never God’s intention for man to die and if he didn’t die he wouldn’t leave the earth. Follow? It just makes sense.

The problem with JW’s is their own publications:

“The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ.” Watchtower 2010 Sep 15 p.23

“Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually.” Watchtower 1981 Mar 1 p.24

So, where was the faithful & discreet slave before the founder, Charles Taze Russell?

 

[T_More]

He’s a JW.

So, “Riddle me this”. Suppose the year is 1450. A non-Christian interested in following Christ runs across these passages: (New World Translation) Matthew 18:15-17

15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

To be obedient to Christ’s commands, what congregation would this person go to?

 

[PRmerger]

Ok then since we are picking at words, it was God’s purpose for the earth. For man to live on the earth in a paradise forever. Why do I say forever? Because it was never God’s intention for man to die and if he didn’t die he wouldn’t leave the earth. Follow? It just makes sense.

If you could quote the Bible verse in Genesis for me that would be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[jessaka]

Jessaka, I don’t know why you quote things from scripture when you fully do not believe all of it."

The latest round of revisionism was touched off last summer by a surprising editorial in La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine with close ties to the Vatican. Hell, the magazine declared, "is not a ‘place’ but a ‘state,’ a person’s 'state of being,’ in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God." A few days later, Pope John Paul II told an audience at the Vatican that “rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God.” To describe this Godforsaken condition, the pontiff said, the Bible “uses a symbolical language” that "figuratively portrays in a ‘pool of fire’ those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a ‘second death.’ "

What? Do you think that scripture is a pizza menu? I don’t understand? You said that it is people like me who need to burn in hell for thinking that there is an eternal hell fire. QUOTE]

I never said this above. I said that some people need to believe in hell, not that they will burn in hell.

Thank you Regardless for that article in U.S. World News!!! I thought it had been a Time Magazine article, and maybe it was, but this article is great. For some reason, Co-Redeemer, you keep thinking that I don’t believe in hell, when I only said that I don’t take it literally, that means that I believe the language is symbolic. But I can’t keep coming back here and listening to all of this because all of this negative talk really takes away the love of God and turns it into something that sounds more like fundamentalist Christians who are so set on condemning others that the light of God doesn’t shine, and so it kind of makes me not like being around Catholics who think this way, and I really don’t wish that to happen, because Mass is so beautiful as are some of the other teachings that they have. If I want to talk to a Westboro minister I would do that, but instead I wish to be around those who see God’s love, not his constant condemnation. And maybe I should not say this, but this is how this thread affects me.

 

[Bible_is_truth]

I see that you didn’t bother to write the whole text of Romans 6:23 but shortened it for your advantage. Why did you deliberately shorten Romans 6:23?, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Hardness of heart is the ruine of character and integrity and honesty. For this reason Paul says in Romans 7:12, “For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, seduced me, and by it killed me.” Yeah right! If sin had killed Paul then how is it that he wrote that letter? Was he talking about the literal death in Romans 6:23?

Luke 16:19-31 speaks for itself. It you don’t believe in eternal punishment then surely you believe in Luke 16:19-31. If it was a parable then why did Jesus Christ go to such an effort in detailing the the rich man’s conversation with Father Abraham? Why did he the rich man say that he was in a place of fire?

If it was only a parable or a fable story, then, what holds truth in scripture or the gospels?

**Scripture cannot contradict scripture! **
For instance: When you use scripture to contradict another part of scripture, especially to contradict the gospels, especially to contradict Luke 16:19-31, then you are destroying divinely revealed truth. This, my friend, is a compromise, hence he who does not believe in the gospels as being divinely revealed truths is making it into a divinely revealed lies. If the gospels speak about the life after death and punishment after death, then it is a divinely revealed truth and should not be taken lightly. God, Jesus Christ did not speak about the life after death literally for a joke in Luke 16:19-31. As a matter of fact, Jesus never joked around. Therefore I believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospels and he who does not believe in the Gospels does not believe in Christ. And may that one be excommunicated from him forever as Luke 16:19-31 demonstrates it. AMEN.

Look again at post 310 mine was the second half of.== Pardon me for jumping in onwar:thumbsup:d,Looks like I did not paste? it correctly …

 

[atheistgirl]

They said Hell is not a place, but a state of being in which you suffer from being away from God. To describe such a condition, the Pope said the Bible uses symbolic language. However, some non-Catholic Christians still believe Hell is a physical place where your soul burns in the lake of fire for eternity.

How does one suffer from being away from God?

Now the Pope has said hell isn’t an actual place, but a state, where one isn’t in the presence of God, how is that ‘‘suffering’’, especially for someone who never believed anyhow?

I don’t understand.

I think of it like this. I do not believe in any afterlife, or any deity or supernatural forces of any kind what so ever. When I die, I discover there is a Deity, who says, well you never believed in me, so now you’re not going to be in my presence.

How is that punishing me

It’s like someone saying if you believe me, I will give you a huge house in Spain, and $1billion to keep you in comfort. I tell them I don’t believe them.

After a time, they take me to Spain, show me the house, and a case with $1 billion!!!

It makes no difference to me. I didn’t want it then, and I don’t want it now. I don’t care.

So how exactly does the ‘‘suffering’’ come in?

Sarah x

 

[Church_Militant]

How does one suffer from being away from God?

Now the Pope has said hell isn’t an actual place, but a state, where one isn’t in the presence of God, how is that ‘‘suffering’’, especially for someone who never believed anyhow?

I don’t understand.

I think of it like this. I do not believe in any afterlife, or any deity or supernatural forces of any kind what so ever. When I die, I discover there is a Deity, who says, well you never believed in me, so now you’re not going to be in my presence.

How is that punishing me

It’s like someone saying if you believe me, I will give you a huge house in Spain, and $1billion to keep you in comfort. I tell them I don’t believe them.

After a time, they take me to Spain, show me the house, and a case with $1 billion!!!

It makes no difference to me. I didn’t want it then, and I don’t want it now. I don’t care.

So how exactly does the ‘‘suffering’’ come in?

Sarah x

Sarah, you misunderstand what His Holiness meant.
There are two aspects to hell. The suffering of the separation from the source of all love, and the physical suffering.

Consider the anguish that we humans experience when a love relationship ends. The more one loved, the greater the loss that is felt. In many cases, that is worse than any physical pain.

You may of course disagree, but what the Pope is saying is that anyplace apart from God’s love is, in effect hellish.

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah, you misunderstand what His Holiness meant.
There are two aspects to hell. The suffering of the separation from the source of all love, and the physical suffering.

Consider the anguish that we humans experience when a love relationship ends. The more one loved, the greater the loss that is felt. In many cases, that is worse than any physical pain.

You may of course disagree, but what the Pope is saying is that anyplace apart from God’s love is, in effect hellish.

Thanks for the clarification Church Militant.

I understand exactly what you mean when you reference having your heart broken at the end of a loving relationship.

What if you never loved in the first place though? You wouldn’t feel anything then would you?

Sarah x

(Oh my gosh, I’ve just seen your homepage Ok, well, that’s the rest of this weeks reading material sorted out )

 

[jessaka]

I am reading the new Cathcism. There is nothing in it about a literal fire burning a person forever. Instead it says this:

The church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity, reserved for those who don’t love God and have sinned against God, neighbor, or self. “Hell firs” is an imagine that tries to describe the basic horror of hell: love lost. It attempts to cature the state of a person who “burns” with self-hatred and abject loneliness because he or she has pridefull chosen self over God."

The book is **This is Our Faith–A catholic cathechism for adults **by michael Pennock. Wish I had read it before coming to this hellish thead, since I felt like I was being put through hell by coming here. Nothing in this chapter of the afterlife speaks of hell as a burning fire. This book was given to me by my priest. Maybe what you all have been taught was out of a medieval Cathechism book. This I can accept easily.