Jehovah.

[cascherman]

First off, you are approaching this thread way off, you can’t come charging in here exclaiming blatant generalizations.

But, if you would like to know why Catholics believe more than just 144,000 are going to heaven then we will go to the Bible.

Revelation 7:9-12
After this I had a vision of a great multitude,
which no one could count,
from every nation, race, people, and tongue.
They stood before the throne and before the Lamb,
wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
They cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne,
and from the Lamb.”

All the angels stood around the throne
and around the elders and the four living creatures.
They prostrated themselves before the throne,
worshiped God, and exclaimed:

“Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving,
honor, power, and might
be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

A great multitude which cannot be counted before the throne of God, with the angels, around the elders, all prostrated worshiping. Need any more reason to think more than just 144,000 are going to heaven?

BTW, if you insist on taking the 144,000 literally then you will have to insist that every one of the 144,000 is a descendant of each tribe in Israel (Jewish blood), all of which are Men, all of which are Virgins, and all of which are sinless. Are the ‘elect’ in your congregation all men, virgins, sinless, and of Jewish blood? (Rev. 14:3-5

Another thing…

Before Christ, Judaism was the TRUE religion, no question, you cannot argue this or you have no basis for your form of Christianity. Christianity is based on Judaism. It is the fulfillment of Judaism. If the Jews did not consider themselves worthy to proclaim the name of God and this was ruled from the seat of Moses before Christ, then guess what? We can’t go back now and change all the scriptures to say his name. That is CHANGING the scriptures. Point Blank. Not to mention the New Testament has not even a mention in any manuscript of ever having used ‘YHWH’. So, you’ve got some explaining to do, as there is NO proof that the early Christians agreed with your beliefs in the use of the tetragrammaton unanimously in the NT.

 

[cascherman]

So, I challenge you to explain to all of us why your organization has the authority to interpret scriptures infallibly and why you believe it is the prophet of God in magazine form?

As well, You mentioned some things about 1914, I challenge you to read the words of the Watchtower BEFORE 1914 and what they expected to happen. You will find a very different thing than what they tell you 1914 was now. Not to mention the other 5 or 6 ‘end dates’ set that have come and gone.

In order to be a prophet of God, you have to get the prophecies right…

 

[cascherman]

I am someone who is reading the whole bible and studying it and no one can give me answers except the Jehovahs witnesses and why is it you can only date the catholic faith back to henry the 8th oh i know because he made catholic so he could have more wifes.

wow, I didn’t actually read this when I was going to through the thread…

Sorry man, but I think you lost most everyone who did take this thread seriously with this comment.

Truth is important. Even the protestants who say the early Christian Church was not Catholic, at least gives the date being at in Constantine’s reign, and believe me, they will push the first idea of a Catholic Church as late as they can pull off, and they gave us over a 1,000 more years than you have. I think you have the Catholic and the Anglican Church mixed up either way.

Listen, stick around, read some threads. Have an open mind, and just try to LEARN. Start at Catholic.com, theres a bunch of true to history and the Church articles written there for you to peruse.

 

[dolphinlove]

Oh good grief.
Is it just me or are the threads on here getting weirder?

 

[Tietjen]

I am someone who is reading the whole bible and studying it and no one can give me answers except the Jehovahs witnesses and why is it you can only date the catholic faith back to henry the 8th oh i know because he made catholic so he could have more wifes.

Okay, at this point all should know that Jehovahswitness is obviously pretty young. That’s not an insult but it is so very obvious that he has little to no knowledge of the Catholic Church.

 

[water]

Hey guys, if there are only 144000 being granted to go to Heaven, don’t bother to stay here to fight and argue, you might be the number 144,001.

 

[PaulDupre]

I am someone who is reading the whole bible and studying it and no one can give me answers except the Jehovahs witnesses and why is it you can only date the catholic faith back to henry the 8th oh i know because he made catholic so he could have more wifes.

Well, folks, there you have it.

Wow,
Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

Hey Jehovahswitness,

Here is the Revelation reference to the 144,000:

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. (Rev 14:1-4)

Notice that this passage tells us that the 144,000 will be virgins. Now tell me, how could the 144,000 be Jehovah’s Witnesses when the WBTS condemns celibacy and commands all of their members to marry, so they cannot be virgins?

God bless you,
Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

it also says in the bible Jesus died on a stake not a cross want proof on all of this read the Holy Scriptures

Exactly where in the bible does it say this?

Thanks,
Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

no 1914 was when satan the devil was cast out of heaven it also says this in the bible and after 1914 we have been in the lasts days because JEHOVAH is being patient because he wants us all to live forever.

Where exactly is the year 1914 mentioned in the bible?

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

jehovahswitness I double dog dare you to read this thread. it is using your own NWT and the Greek Interlinear to blow your 144000 and great crowd right out of the water:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=185074

and it is the reason I left.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I think the OP is a kid.

 

[bpbasilphx]

So, I challenge you to explain to all of us why your organization has the authority to interpret scriptures infallibly and why you believe it is the prophet of God in magazine form?

In March or April of 1972, a JW magazine in the lead article “They Shall Know that a Prophet was Among Them” said that JWs were prophets.

In their 1986 book Reasoning Together from the Scriptures, they said that JW’s were NOT prophets–they did make mistakes.

Question: When did the Organization lie? Saying they were prophets or saying they were not?

 

[Zooey]

this from someone who thinks 144000 people will “RAIN” on the earth!

you are an embarrassment to real JWs. are you a troll? are you drunk?

you are surely not one of BibleSteve’s Bible Studies…

Good one, Ravyn!! Boy, Noah was a real amateur compared to this!!

Oh good grief.
Is it just me or are the threads on here getting weirder?

No, they’re definitely getting weirder…When Henry VIII is starting the Catholic Church uch: ], things are really, really, really:whacky: weird!!!

 

[BibleSteve]

So, I challenge you to explain to all of us why your organization has the authority to interpret scriptures infallibly and why you believe it is the prophet of God in magazine form?

In March or April of 1972, a JW magazine in the lead article “They Shall Know that a Prophet was Among Them” said that JWs were prophets.

In their 1986 book Reasoning Together from the Scriptures, they said that JW’s were NOT prophets–they did make mistakes.

Question: When did the Organization lie? Saying they were prophets or saying they were not?

You simply don’t realize the word “prophet” is used by JW’s differently than you assume:

From the JW “Insight on the Scriptures”:

"The Greek pro·phe′tes literally means “a speaker out [Gr., pro, “before” or “in front of,” and phe·mi′, “say”]” and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Tit 1:12.) Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction. (Compare Jg 6:7-10.) "

“. … prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages”

Thus, JW use the word “prophecy” interchangably with the word “preaching”… and the word “prophet” with “preacher”.

JW’s have overtly stated on many occassions they are not “inspired”, and not “inspired prophets”.

Your question is a common misunderstanding.

 

[patrick457]

No, they’re definitely getting weirder…When Henry VIII is starting the Catholic Church uch: ], things are really, really, really:whacky: weird!!!

Next they’ll be telling us that King George started the Catholic Church…What is it with royalty getting the credit for starting the Church?

 

[fellowChristian]

Ahh well this is all stupid really lol I mean you all know that gods name is Jehovah so why not use it because in the Holy Scriptures he says that he wants us to know his name.

So go on tell me what are your views on this?

ANSWERS…

**1st. ** There is no letter “J” in the Hebrew language.
And “Jehovah” doesn’t even sound close to “Yahweh”.

2nd. After 1534 ad. King Henry VIII broke from the Catholic Church so he could divorce his wife.

3rd. There were no “Jehovah’s witnesses” until after 1874 ad. when Charles T. Russell broke off from the Presbyterian church that was started in 1560 ad. by John Knox who broke from the Calvinist church started by John Calvin rolleyes: )in 1555 ad. and he broke off from the Catholic Church .

QUESTIONS FOR THE OP…

1st. How many churches did Jesus build,found,create?

2nd. Why would God make people wait from 33ad. allllllllll the way to 1874 for the truth?

3rd. Since the Watchtower organization claims “apostolic succession” who was it that “passed the torch of God’s Spirit” to C. T. Russel when he founded the organization? What was the name of this individual?

4th. The Bible says that ONLY God is our savior (Hos 13:4, Isa 43:11,45:21, etc.). How can it be then, that the Bible repeatedly says that Jesus Christ is our savior (Lk 2:11, Phil 3:20, Tit 2:13, 3:6, 2Pet 1:1, 2:20, 3:18, etc.)?

5th. When were all the books brought together to make one book, known to us now as the Bible, and who did it, if there were no JW’s or Protestants before 1517ad.?

Relax the questions are for you not me.

 

[patrick457]

Ahh well this is all stupid really lol I mean you all know that gods name is Jehovah so why not use it because in the Holy Scriptures he says that he wants us to know his name.

So go on tell me what are your views on this?

Not exactly. God’s actual name is YHWH; ‘Jehovah’ is a reading using the vowel points for ‘Adonai’ while ‘Yahweh’ is a scholarly attempt to reconstruct the original pronunciation (other reconstructions include ‘Yahavah’ or ‘Yahaveh’).

The Early Fathers (or at times, Gnostics or Non-Christians) transcribed the Name as:

-Diodorus Siculus (ca. 90 BC– ca. 27 BC): Iao

Amongst the Jews Moses pretended that the god surnamed Iao gave him his laws…

Bibliotheca Historica 1. 94

-Irenaeus (2nd century-end of 2nd/beginning of 3rd century), reporting on Valentinians and other Gnostics: Iao, Iaoth

-Magical papyri: Iaoouee* (ιαωουηε), Iao

-Clement of Alexandria (c.150-211/216): Iaou (in one manucript Iaoue)

-Origen (ca. 185–ca. 254)-Iao, Jah

It must be noticed, too, that those who have drawn up this array of fictions, have, from neither understanding magic, nor discriminating the meaning of holy Scripture, thrown everything into confusion; seeing that they have borrowed from magic the names of Ialdabaoth, and Astaphaeus, and Horaeus, and from the Hebrew Scriptures him who is termed in Hebrew Iao or Jah

, and Sabaoth, and Adonaeus, and Eloaeus…

-Contra Celsus, 6.32

-Porphyry (c. 233–c. 309), philosopher and author of Against the Christians (Adversus Christianos): Ieuo

-Epiphanius of Salamis (ca. 310–320-403): Ia, Iabe (one codex Iaue)

-Pseudo-Jerome: Iaho

-Theodoret (c. 393 AD – c. 457 AD): Iabe and Iabai (Samaritan pronunciations; by this time the Greek letter ‘β’ had the pronunciation of ‘v’), Aia (supposedly the Jewish pronunciation but might actually be ‘Ehyeh’-‘I am’), Iao

-Jacob of Edessa (c. 640 - 5 June 708): Jehjeh

-Magical texts: Iave, Jahveh Sebaoth, Iaba

-Ethiopic list of magical names of Jesus: Yawe

-Joachim of Fiore’s (1132-1202): Ieue or Ieve

-Pope Innocent III (writing on 1200): Ieue

-Jacques Lefèvres d’Etaples (writing on 1509): Iheuhe

-The Samaritans, while sharing the aversion to pronounce the Name, seems to have used it in judicial oaths. Samaritan priests pronounce the Name as ‘Yahwe’ or ‘Yahwa’.

---

As for ‘Jehovah’, the first recorded use of this form was from Hellenistic magical texts from the 3rd century (as Ieoa, Ιεωα). Then:

-1278 work Pugio fidei by Dominican monk Ramón Martí: Jehova/Yohoua

-1303 book Porchetus’ Victory Against the Ungodly Hebrews by Porchetus de Salvaticis: Yohouah

-1445 Sermo XLVIII Dies sanctificatus by Card. Nicholas of Cusa: Ieoua, Ihehoua

-1474 Marsilio Ficino: Hiehouahi

-1518 De Arcanis Catholicae Veritatis by Pietro Galatino, Pope Leo X’s confessor: Iehoua

-1530 Tyndale Bible: Iehouah

-1555 Sébastien Chateillon: Ioua

-16th Century: *Jova *(declined like a Latin noun)

-1611 KJV: Iehovah

-1762-1769 edit of the KJV: Jehovah*

 

[bogeydogg]

You simply don’t realize the word “prophet” is used by JW’s differently than you assume:

From the JW “Insight on the Scriptures”:

"The Greek pro·phe′tes literally means “a speaker out [Gr., pro, “before” or “in front of,” and phe·mi′, “say”]” and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Tit 1:12.) Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction. (Compare Jg 6:7-10.) "

“. … prediction, or foretelling, is not the basic thought conveyed by the root verbs in the original languages”

Thus, JW use the word “prophecy” interchangably with the word “preaching”… and the word “prophet” with “preacher”.

JW’s have overtly stated on many occassions they are not “inspired”, and not “inspired prophets”.

Your question is a common misunderstanding.

Yes Steve but remember also that the Greek προφήτης prophētēs is better translated as “foreteller” and is analogous to the Hebrew נביא nâbîy’ which is best translated as “inspired man” that is one who is under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

The Greek attempts to translate a word in the LXX for which there was no direct transliteration. However, this difficulty does not excuse misappropriation of the word to mean something else than one who speaks with God’s authority and with absolute inerrant infallability.

 

[cascherman]

sorry guys, I think the OP has posted and left for good. They had their say and will give no attempt to actually learn the truth.

And BibleSteve, your semantics on the word ‘prophet’ is useless. The Watchtower has PROPHESIED the end of the world, it has come and gone, and the Watchtower was wrong (Multiple Times). So whether or not your argument for prophet would hold any water under scrutiny is moot.

The watchtower has attempted the actions of a prophet and was dead wrong. So regardless of what you say the Watchtower said of itself, it has ACTED like a prophet. This point blank proves anything coming out of the Watchtower is maybe not false, but definitely not an organization/magazine anyone should count on no matter what.