Jehovah's Witnesses about to be banned in Russia

[GEddie]

While I respect the Russkys not wanting them, this should be a sad note for anybody who cherishes religious freedom.

ICXC NIKA

 

[boomerang]

The Russian Federation is in the process of banning the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
(Like they did in the Soviet era.)

As they put it: **“Russia’s Supreme Court on April 5 will consider the Justice Ministry’s request for declaring Jehovah’s Witnesses an extremist organization and banning and terminating its activities in the country.” **

Yes, Extremism.
Despite being non-political, non-violent and insisting all members live by the Bible’s moral standards (including obeying the law) - we are apparently pretty much the same as ISIS!

Below is an article in the Guardian newspaper about it. (one of many mentions in international newspapers)

theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2017/mar/09/in-russia-the-persecution-of-jehovahs-witnesses-begins-all-over-again

This has actually been building up for years.
Russia is the only country in the world where our official website (JW.org) is blocked.
One by one, pretty much all our literature has been banned as extremist over the last few years. Did you see that Watchtower article last month about dealing with teen depression? - illegal in Russia. The “How to make your Family life happy” book - banned.
And not content with that, the Police have been raiding Kingdom Halls and there is video footage of the authorities planting copies of the banned literature and “discovering it” a few moments later!
Below is an example on JW.org. (So if you are in Russia you won’t be able to open it)

jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/russia/police-planting-evidence-video/

Jehovah’s Witnesses were banned for most of the Soviet era. Stalin deported us to Siberian work camps, yet when the Soviet Union collapsed there were 10,000 JW’s in Russia. There are 170,000 now.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

Any thoughts?

Well, when you consider the JW’s lack of allegiance to the government, inability to vote, refusal to serve in the armed forces, refusal to take part in holidays, lack of civic duty, and then combine all that with the gross heresy of their doctrines, I’m not surprised they are banned. Nope, can’t blame the Russians at all. I just hope no actual physical harm comes to the JW’s, because it certainly could.

 

[adf417]

Can you explain what the situation is, and explain why the phrase “double standard” is appropriate?

Are you saying that the US military pension system takes into consideration the religion of the spouse of military personnel, and that it shouldn’t take into consideration that religion?

Or are you saying that the US military pension system doesn’t take into consideration the religion of the spouse of military personnel, and that it ought to take into consideration that religion?

Neither. Im just saying it is a double standard for those who don’t “believe in” or “support” the military yet continue to live off the very money provided by the system in which they object to. The JW spouse of a military vet continues to receive (legally) the pension of the her deceased husband. I wonder how much of this goes on and I wonder how much of this is known by their congration.

Peace!!!

 

[esieffe]

Russia has always been ruled by oppressive leaders. Russian nationalism has always been a mystery to me in light of that. This is just another step towards soviet style rule, implemented by a former KGB man. Any news of internal persecution or aggression to their neighbors should not come as a surprise to anybody.

 

[Logically]

Well, when you consider the JW’s lack of allegiance to the government, inability to vote, refusal to serve in the armed forces, refusal to take part in holidays, lack of civic duty, and then combine all that with the gross heresy of their doctrines, I’m not surprised they are banned. .

Note the similarities of your comment with the following:

*“Under the reign of Emperor Decius, a decree was issued requiring public sacrifice, a formality equivalent to a testimonial of allegiance to the Emperor and the established order. Christians were often given opportunities to avoid further punishment by publicly offering sacrifices or by burning incense to Roman gods, and were accused by the Romans of impiety when they refused.” *

• Wikipedia article on ‘Persecution of Early Christians.’

Just exchange “emperor” with “government”, and “sacrifice” with “service”, “won’t burn incense to Roman gods” with “heresy”.
It is almost a match. Uncanny eh?

Are we seeing history repeat itself?

Nope, can’t blame the Russians at all. I just hope no actual physical harm comes to the JW’s, because it certainly could.

*“A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you.” *- John 15:20

 

[boomerang]

Note the similarities of your comment with the following:

*“Under the reign of Emperor Decius, a decree was issued requiring public sacrifice, a formality equivalent to a testimonial of allegiance to the Emperor and the established order. Christians were often given opportunities to avoid further punishment by publicly offering sacrifices or by burning incense to Roman gods, and were accused by the Romans of impiety when they refused.” *

• Wikipedia article on ‘Persecution of Early Christians.’

Just exchange “emperor” with “government”, and “sacrifice” with “service”, “won’t burn incense to Roman gods” with “heresy”.
It is almost a match. Uncanny eh?

Are we seeing history repeat itself?

*“A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you.” *- John 15:20

Not buying it, sorry. Jesus is not Michael the Archangel, and the Russians and all of Christendom full well know it.

Look at this picture representing “Babylon the Great” from JW.org:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This is what your organization says about “Babylon the Great”:

Babylon the Great, described in the book of Revelation, is the world’s collective body of false religions, which God rejects. Although those religions differ in many respects, in one way or another they all lead people away from the worship of the true God, Jehovah.

Obviously, “Babylon” is the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The figure on the left, crowning the king, is the Pope wearing his papal tiara. The other is an Orthodox partiarch. False and insulting propaganda like this is the reason JW’s are not welcome in some places.

In my many “discussions” with those of other religions, I have noticed that JW’s and ex-Catholics are the most hateful and vitriolic. JW’s are the worst, though. At least ex-Catholics have a facade of not despising us. JW’s don’t even try. Like I said in my previous post, I hope no harm comes to the JW’s in Russia, but don’t expect any sympathy, either.



(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[josh987654321]

Well, when you consider the JW’s lack of allegiance to the government

As Catholics, we have a healthy lack of allegiance to the government, as St Thomas More said “I die the king’s faithful servant, but God’s first.”

inability to vote,

Why would that be an issue for us?

refusal to serve in the armed forces,

I can see where that may be an issue for some, however, banning JW’s is not going to change anything and there have always been conscientious objectors without JW’s.

refusal to take part in holidays,

I’m not worried.

lack of civic duty,

Could you please elaborate here? What do you mean?

and then combine all that with the gross heresy of their doctrines,

It may be heresy, but it certainly doesn’t raise to the level of public safety in which government should be required or feel pressured to outlaw it.

I’m not surprised they are banned.

I’m surprised. From what I understand It’s irrational.

Nope, can’t blame the Russians at all. I just hope no actual physical harm comes to the JW’s, because it certainly could.

I hope the Russians don’t pass it. It’s not the way, if they have issues with JW’s, the best course of action is dialogue and education, not outlawing it.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Logically]

Not buying it, sorry. …

Obviously, “Babylon” is the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The figure on the left, crowning the king, is the Pope wearing his papal tiara. The other is an Orthodox partiarch. False and insulting propaganda like this is the reason JW’s are not welcome in some places.

I am truely sorry you are offended. There is no benefit in offending people.

Unfortunately I think your first pic didn’t load! (At least I can’t see it) But I know the picture you are referring to. I think a pope crowning an emperor and a priest blessing crusaders?

I see your point.
Those are artists impressions of true events from history. Examples of religions being involved in politics and sharing in blood guilt in wars. Things that the symbolic character in Revelation is identified as being involved in. Those pictures are just examples showing that many religions have been involved in such things.
If true, how important that people realise that God does not approve of such things being done in his name!
Of course people are welcome to say: “we don’t do that.”
But should we keep such conclusions quiet?

An honest question though: Who or what do you understand Babylon the Great to be?

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[PseuTonym]

Neither. Im just saying it is a double standard for those who don’t “believe in” or “support” the military yet continue to live off the very money provided by the system in which they object to. The JW spouse of a military vet continues to receive (legally) the pension of the her deceased husband. I wonder how much of this goes on and I wonder how much of this is known by their congration.

Peace!!!

Does the military itself produce wealth (such as via plunder of other countries)? If the military is merely a necessary expense, then it doesn’t produce wealth.

What if a vegetarian receives pension benefits because the vegetarian’s spouse worked as a butcher? Would that be a double standard?

Perhaps we should discuss the meaning of the term “double standard”, beginning with a simple scenario that we can both agree is an example of a double standard.

 

[adf417]

Does the military itself produce wealth (such as via plunder of other countries)? If the military is merely a necessary expense, then it doesn’t produce wealth.

Ok

What if a vegetarian receives pension benefits because the vegetarian’s spouse worked as a butcher? Would that be a double standard?

Well that would all depend on the motivations of the vegetarian which is why this analogy will never fly.

Perhaps we should discuss the meaning of the term “double standard”, beginning with a simple scenario that we can both agree is an example of a double standard.

Perhaps, if it were the topic.

Peace!!!

 

[Vonsalza]

Russia has always been ruled by oppressive leaders. Russian nationalism has always been a mystery to me in light of that. This is just another step towards soviet style rule, implemented by a former KGB man. Any news of internal persecution or aggression to their neighbors should not come as a surprise to anybody.

I think what ole’ Vlad-Pootie is going for is the restoration of Russia as the champion of the Christian East (read: Orthodox Christian East). As an ex-KGB man, he just enjoys the power of the highly authoritarian state. I have sincere doubts that he envisions a restoration of any form of soviet.

Think “Pre-‘October Revolution’ Czarist Russia with a dash of Soviet-Style Authoritarian Bureaucracy mixed in”. I think that’s Pootie’s Russia.

 

[ajcstr]

An honest question though: Who or what do you understand Babylon the Great to be?

Thank you for your thoughts.

The two interpretations I have heard are the Roman Empire or Jerusalem.

From Catholic Answers (not sure if you are permitted to read the link, but I included it as well as a quote from it):

catholic.com/tract/the-whore-of-babylon

“While the rest of her description could refer to a number of things, the symbolic designation “Babylon” narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as “Babylon”; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Historically, a number of commentators, both Protestant and Catholic, have adopted this interpretation.”

 

[boomerang]

As Catholics, we have a healthy lack of allegiance to the government, as St Thomas More said “I die the king’s faithful servant, but God’s first.”

Why would that be an issue for us?

I can see where that may be an issue for some, however, banning JW’s is not going to change anything and there have always been conscientious objectors without JW’s.

I’m not worried.

Could you please elaborate here? What do you mean?

It may be heresy, but it certainly doesn’t raise to the level of public safety in which government should be required or feel pressured to outlaw it.

I’m surprised. From what I understand It’s irrational.

I hope the Russians don’t pass it. It’s not the way, if they have issues with JW’s, the best course of action is dialogue and education, not outlawing it.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Hmmm…I think you are not grasping the meaning of my post. All the things I said: lack of allegiance to a government, not voting, not taking part in holidays, refusal to serve in the army are the “lack of civic duty” I am speaking of. All of these things, including the heresy of denying the divinity of Christ are mostly irrelevant to those like you and I who live in a western country, but we are not talking about the West.* We are talking about Russia*. It’s about *Russia *banning the JW’s, not Australia or the United States.

Russia is an autocracy that has a close alliance with the Orthodox Church. It’s the de facto state religion. They do not look kindly on groups that buck the system. This is why they are not welcome there. I hope this clarifies my previous post a little better.

 

[boomerang]

I am truely sorry you are offended. There is no benefit in offending people.

Unfortunately I think your first pic didn’t load! (At least I can’t see it) But I know the picture you are referring to. I think a pope crowning an emperor and a priest blessing crusaders?

I see your point.
Those are artists impressions of true events from history. Examples of religions being involved in politics and sharing in blood guilt in wars. Things that the symbolic character in Revelation is identified as being involved in. Those pictures are just examples showing that many religions have been involved in such things.
If true, how important that people realise that God does not approve of such things being done in his name!
Of course people are welcome to say: “we don’t do that.”
But should we keep such conclusions quiet?

An honest question though: Who or what do you understand Babylon the Great to be?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Here is the image:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Everyone knows religions have been involved in politics. Everyone know that all people sin, including religious leaders. That is not the statement this picture conveys along with the accompanying article. Again from the article:

Babylon the Great, described in the book of Revelation, is the world’s collective body of** false religions**, which God rejects. Although those religions differ in many respects, in one way or another they all lead people away from the worship of the true God, Jehovah.

That’s what it says right next to a picture depicting a Pope and an Orthodox Patriarch (who is fornicating with a whore, no less). It is making a statement that should be clear to anyone with two eyes that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are “false religions” which “God rejects” because they “lead people away from the worship of the true God.” Straight from the JW’s official website.

It mystifies me as to how anyone that possesses a basic knowledge of the way the Russian state operates, with it’s close alliance with the Orthodox Church, how that person could feign dismay that the Russians want the JW’s banned.

What do I think is Babylon? My opinion is that it is old pagan Rome and the Whore is the Jewish religious leaders, represented by Jerusalem. They teamed up to kill Jesus. So I agree with ajcstr’s post.

 

[Logically]

…
It mystifies me as to how anyone that possesses a basic knowledge of the way the Russian state operates, with it’s close alliance with the Orthodox Church, how that person could feign dismay that the Russians want the JW’s banned. .

I think you have hit the nail on the head with that post my friend!

We are not surprised. Although us JWs do our best to live peaceful lives and not cause trouble with the governments - “no part of the world” as Jesus instructed - we are going to get the backs up of major religions if we keep preaching what we understand the Bible says.

Since the previous ban was lifted in Russia in 1991, JWs have have increased from 10,000 to 170,000. Presumably ones leaving the Orthodox Church.

The Russian government has close ties you say? I think you are right. The “extremist” law is an excuse. (I doubt an accusation of “sheep stealing” would look good in court.)

What do I think is Babylon? My opinion is that it is old pagan Rome and the Whore is the Jewish religious leaders, represented by Jerusalem. They teamed up to kill Jesus. So I agree with ajcstr’s post.

Fair enough.

Again, a parallel here?
Religious leaders teaming up with the political powers to destroy a new movement - not because Jesus was lying or involved in violent sedition - but because he was peacefully telling the truth, and people were listening to him.

Though from both our history, we know that if God is supporting it, (like he was the early Christians,) even the most powerful human governments won’t be able to stop the truth.

Thanks for your post boomerang! You are a thinking person.

 

[Logically]

…
Think “Pre-‘October Revolution’ Czarist Russia with a dash of Soviet-Style Authoritarian Bureaucracy mixed in”. I think that’s Pootie’s Russia.

Cool description.

I can’t imagine Jehovahs Witnesses freely walking the streets, offering their Bible literature and inviting people to their meetings will fit very well!

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Logically]

they are banned here in one way or the other in my country as well bc of military and such (as mentioned by the other poster)

I don’t know how to feel about it because I can see both sides clearly, but it’s a pity because I have seen many lovely jws

Which country is that?

 

[dshix]

Which country is that?

The poster’s “location” says “Singapore”.

 

[GEddie]

I hold no brief for the JWs, as it is hard to get more anti-Catholic than they.

Still, I am reminded of the one who ignored the tyranny (which I shan’t name, but we all know it, from Central Europe in the mid 1900s) coming after group after group, until they at last came after him and no-one was left to speak for him.

If the Russians successfully chase out the Watchtower, how are we so sure Catholics won’t be next?

ICXC NIKA

 

[ajcstr]

I hold no brief for the JWs, as it is hard to get more anti-Catholic than they.

Still, I am reminded of the one who ignored the tyranny (which I shan’t name, but we all know it, from Central Europe in the mid 1900s) coming after group after group, until they at last came after him and no-one was left to speak for him.

If the Russians successfully chase out the Watchtower, how are we so sure Catholics won’t be next?

ICXC NIKA

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

And, I know the JW are pretty anti-Catholic in their literature, but I can’t say i ever met one that was outwardly anti-Catholic though I never attended a “bible study”.