Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

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Well, here’s my personal take:

I honor Christmas and attend Christmas mass, but we do not keep a tree or practice Santa in my house. In my house, Easter is the holiest of holidays - no bunnies. We do not celebrate Halloween either. Many ostracize me for this, but I do not feel comfortable with any of it.

My forefathers fought in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, each World War, and my father spent my childhood in the Middle East fighting many battles in the Gulf. My husband and my brother are both Infantry; therefore, we celebrate the military and U.S. days of recognition. I believe that we would not have the freedom to even question religion without these great sacrifices. I never pray that God take a side during a battle, but that He protects my loved ones. If they should perish, I pray that God take them with him.

Birthdays and anniversaries are not huge deals. We enjoy dinners and such, but no big parties. Just don’t see the huge point in it all, but if it makes my loved ones feel special for a day, so be it. That’s just because our family is so big.

There ya go. I shared all of that with you so that you feel comfortable in whatever you wish to celebrate. To the Church, there are days we are obligated to observe, and I gladly do so. The rest are up to you.
 
Ok, I think I understand that. So many times the Witnesses changes what the bible says but the general meaning is still there. But the bible i thought was not written by 6 people because in my NWT bible it says that all the people that were making it would remain Anonymous.
So i guess Jesus could be God. I am not entirely sure about that yet. But the other things holidays are traditions of man.
In many books of the New Testament we see the author identified in the first verse in each book. From there we can read the writings of the early Church fathers and see that they identify authors of specific writings.

Not everything is written in the Bible.
Joh 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
There were other places scriptures tell us that we learn.
2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.
Scriptures themselves tell us the authority where we can learn.
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
Heb 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Those writings were not written for a select group of people over 1800 years after they were written. This would have been skipping generation after generation of people with the correct truth of Christ/God. Christ spoke specifically to the men He chose and appointed over His Church, once telling them:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
The men He told that too were mortal men who would eventually die. Christ made that promise to His Church, through men He chose and appointed.

For those who hold everything to scriptures, making scriptures a final authority (even if it’s through a flawed interpretation), there are many things missing. For example, where in scriptures does it tell us what letters/epistles would be a part of the definition of the canon making the Bible what we know it is today?

The authors of scriptures, the New Testament, were a part of the Church Christ built. They passed those writings to men they chose and appointed with the authority given to them by Christ. They were able to teach interpretation of what they wrote. Those letters and interpretations were passed through the apostolic succession, until eventually the canon of the Bible was defined by more men of the Church, through their authority granted through the apostolic succession.

Using logic, who would have a better understanding of the New Testament, the apostolic men of the Church that wrote, brought the writings together, defined the canon of the Bible and preserved that Bible for hundreds and hundreds of years, or a group of men picking up the Bible and interpreting it for themselves some 1800+ years after the death and resurrection of Christ? Remember, God did not skip generation after generation, leaving them without His truth, for someone to ‘claim’ divine guidance hundreds and hundreds of years later. We have many, many denominations today, all with differences in doctrines/teachings, and all claiming truth through someone’s private interpretation and all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot tell multiple truths and it be one truth. Can He?
 
Well, here’s my personal take:

I honor Christmas and attend Christmas mass, but we do not keep a tree or practice Santa in my house. In my house, Easter is the holiest of holidays - no bunnies. We do not celebrate Halloween either. Many ostracize me for this, but I do not feel comfortable with any of it.

My forefathers fought in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, each World War, and my father spent my childhood in the Middle East fighting many battles in the Gulf. My husband and my brother are both Infantry; therefore, we celebrate the military and U.S. days of recognition. I believe that we would not have the freedom to even question religion without these great sacrifices. I never pray that God take a side during a battle, but that He protects my loved ones. If they should perish, I pray that God take them with him.

Birthdays and anniversaries are not huge deals. We enjoy dinners and such, but no big parties. Just don’t see the huge point in it all, but if it makes my loved ones feel special for a day, so be it. That’s just because our family is so big.

There ya go. I shared all of that with you so that you feel comfortable in whatever you wish to celebrate. To the Church, there are days we are obligated to observe, and I gladly do so. The rest are up to you.
So i don’t have to celebrate it? But i would think that true christians would not celebrate it. It’s like mans traditions. And like I said Early Christians probably did not celebrate it. I have heard the Catholic Church did all that to convert pagans from other nations. Am i correct?
 
Birthdays would not have been celebrated by early Christians. Meaning the ones when Jesus was around. The only time the bible ever mentions birthdays were twice. When King Herod beheaded John the Baptist and a Pharaohs Birthdays. And Jesus was not born in December because they would not have had their flocks out at that time. And even if we knew exactly when Jesus was born we would not celebrate it ether. And Easter is incredibly pagan. The eggs symbolize fertility in pagan traditions. And Jesus wanted us to remember it on the Passover correct? Not every day as the Catholic do with daily Mass. I don’t know if that’s true. After i had had these questions answered we will touch on the history of the Catholic Church.
Let’s look at this another way, where does scriptures specifically tell us not to celebrate birthdays? Doesn’t scriptures teach us to honor our mothers and our fathers? Why would it be considered sinful to celebrate their birthday? Why would it be considered sinful to celebrate the day the Holy Spirit gave us life?

Jesus commanded that we love one another as He loved us. Does Christ not give us many gifts, including the gift of eternal life?
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
When was Christ born? Surely those who point accusing fingers at those who celebrate the coming of the Messiah know the truth to tell everyone else they are wrong?

It’s not real important, but I’d like to know where the poor people of those times put their sheep in during the winter?

Did Christ not celebrate the Passover?
Mat 26:18 But Jesus said: Go ye into the city to a certain man and say to him: The master saith, My time is near at hand. With thee I make the pasch with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus appointed to them: and they prepared the pasch
.

All four Gospels tell us Christ ‘celebrated’ the pasch with His disciples. If Jesus celebrated a ‘feast’, why are we forbidden to celebrate Him, who delivers us?

What about Christ’s first miracle? Didn’t He turn water to wine at a wedding celebration? Wasn’t that a gift, given by Christ?

I don’t know if you’ll find many Christians that will defend the commercialism behind Christmas or Easter. When we attend Mass at Christmas and Easter, we do not discuss or are we taught anything but the events surrounding Christ’s coming into the world or fulfillment of the new and everlasting covenant through the Eucharist and His sacrifice. Saint Nick or the Easter bunny are not a part of our worship of God. Does this mean I don’t give my wife gifts at Christmas? No, I do, just as Christ received ‘birthday/Christmas’ gifts at His birth, my wife receives gifts from me and I from her.

We break no commandments giving and sharing. Those are traits of love for one another.

Read the following carefully and then tell me which would be breaking the commandment of God and which is the tradition of men, giving or not giving or preventing one from giving?
Mar 7:8 For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these.
Mar 7:9 And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said: Honour thy father and thy mother. And He that shall curse father or mother, dying let him die.
Mar 7:11 But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban (which is a gift) whatsoever is from me shall profit thee.
Mar 7:12 And further you suffer him not to do any thing for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.
 
I just came across a wonderful bit of scripture that made me think of the young man who started this thread.

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” (John 5:39–40)

I think it’s worth discussing, since he has asked for guidance in this matter by the Scripture. Here, I see the Bible telling us that the Bible alone is not where our salvation lies, but in Him as well. So this takes us back to the original issue - where can our dear OP find Him?

I don’t mean to deter from the current discussion, but when I came upon this, I felt that it was speaking to us about this issue.

My opinion is still that he has a very good basis which is worthy to be asked of a priest before his final decision. Either way, I continue to pray, as the OP seems to be a wonderfully spiritual child of God with a great future.
 
Let’s look at this another way, where does scriptures specifically tell us not to celebrate birthdays?
The book of Psalms is a great place to learn of traditional celebrations that please God.

“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’” (Psalm 2:7)

This sounds like an awfully happy occasion to me!
 
Ok, I think I understand that. So many times the Witnesses changes what the bible says but the general meaning is still there. But the bible i thought was not written by 6 people because in my NWT bible it says that all the people that were making it would remain Anonymous.
In every Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant translation of the Bible, the names of the translators are published so that if there are any problems or issues, they can be contacted or questioned as to why certain things were translated the way they were, and their credentials can always be determined. What possible reason would a publisher have to leave their translators anonymous, except to protect them from scrutiny and hide errors? The translators of the NWT Bible were uncovered years later after people questioning the translation did a lot of research and attempted to track them down.
So i guess Jesus could be God. I am not entirely sure about that yet. But the other things holidays are traditions of man. Birthdays would not have been celebrated by early Christians. Meaning the ones when Jesus was around. The only time the bible ever mentions birthdays were twice. When King Herod beheaded John the Baptist and a Pharaohs Birthdays. And Jesus was not born in December because they would not have had their flocks out at that time. And even if we knew exactly when Jesus was born we would not celebrate it ether. And Easter is incredibly pagan. The eggs symbolize fertility in pagan traditions. And Jesus wanted us to remember it on the Passover correct? Not every day as the Catholic do with daily Mass. I don’t know if that’s true.
Well, there are several points to touch upon here. The first has to do with a little bit of history. After the fall of Rome, literacy almost disappeared. The number of people who could read in Western Europe plummeted to literally less than 1%. This made it very difficult to spread Christianity, because almost no one could read the Bible. It was because of this that the Catholic Church adopted a couple of strategies for teaching about Christianity. The first was to decorate their churches with paintings, statues, and decorative stained glass windows. They were usually organized into some type of order (Old Testament on one side of the church, New Testament on the other). This allowed people, even if they couldn’t read, to visually recall the stories from the Bible, explain them, and pass them on. The other thing the Catholic Church did was to create a cycle of readings from the Bible. Although people couldn’t read the Bible, they COULD listen to it being read. So, every day, the church would read different selections from the Bible so that over time, all of the important passages would be read. Today, if one were to go to church for three years, they would hear virtually the entire Bible read. The major stories involving the life of Jesus were repeated every year. This is why we have Christmas and Easter celebrations. One marks the time of the year when we begin the story of Jesus, and the other marks his Resurrection. The readings continue for forty days, until finally we hear about the Ascension into heaven and Pentacost. The remainder of the year we hear about the Acts of the Apostles. It is possible that the days selected for these readings are indeed fall on the actual dates of the events. However, that’s not the point. The point is to educate the faithful about each part of the Bible, and then celebrate those events in our lives.

Now, over time, some outside traditions have indeed made it into Christianity. Some are harmless, and some have been added as secular counterparts to the religious celebration. One major reason that Christmas is on December 25 is the same reason that Kwanzaa begins on December 26. Kwanzaa was invented in the 1960s as a secular celebration of black culture in the US. When they were looking to select a date for it, they picked December 26 for a very simple reason… so many holidays belonging to other groups fall during this week already, that everyone has the week off and it’s very convenient. In Roman times, there were some pagan holidays celebrating the shortest day of the year around that time. When Christians were looking to assign a date for one of the most important church readings, that of the birth of Jesus, this was the obvious date for several reasons. One, it required the whole Christian community to worship together, and since Christianity was illegal for the first 300 years of its existence, this would provide an excuse for large numbers of people to meet without suspicion being raised. Two, the symbolism actually worked well. The Winter Equinox was the shortest day of the year. After that day, the amount of daylight would continue to increase every day until the first day of summer. Just as more light was beginning to enter the world, so Jesus was beginning to enlighten the world with his presence. It is a wonderful metaphor. Finally, by selecting a popular holiday, when Christianity DID become legal, it allowed people to transition to the new religion more easily, because the calendar wouldn’t be screwed up. They kept the day as a holiday, but threw out the pagan celebrations in favor of the Christian ones. This also symbolized the triumph of God over paganism.

continued…
 
As far as the celebration of birthdays goes, I’m not sure why this is even relevant to Christianity. It’s simply a secular celebration, with no ties to Christianity OR paganism whatsoever. That said, it is interesting that if the argument is that if it is supposedly “pagan”, and that all pagan things must be rejected, that the JW’s continue to use wedding rings, which are most definitely derived from a pagan tradition originally. It’s also interesting that the JW’s used the symbol of the cross for many years, although now they don’t even believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross.

I have to go out for a while, but I’ll be back this evening to continue this topic. I have other points that I can raise.
 
That said, it is interesting that if the argument is that if it is supposedly “pagan”, and that all pagan things must be rejected, that the JW’s continue to use wedding rings, which are most definitely derived from a pagan tradition originally.
I’m so glad you brought that up, because none of my JW friends could justify the wedding rings! I had forgotten that question.

I would also ask them about the 144,000 that are saved. I was told that the other numbers in the book of Revelation are not to be taken literally, so why that number? And why are only the 144,000 allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper if Christ commanded us eat his flesh and drink his blood - where does that leave the rest of the believers? These are issues I was too young to be well-versed on when I lived among a vast population of JW followers.

And why is Prince never ostracized for his behavior? He is very open about being a JW…I have known people to be disfellowed for smoking and dating outside of the JW belief system. I know one girl who was disfellowed for attending concerts in bars. Curious things to me!
 
I’m so glad you brought that up, because none of my JW friends could justify the wedding rings! I had forgotten that question.

I would also ask them about the 144,000 that are saved. I was told that the other numbers in the book of Revelation are not to be taken literally, so why that number? And why are only the 144,000 allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper if Christ commanded us eat his flesh and drink his blood - where does that leave the rest of the believers? These are issues I was too young to be well-versed on when I lived among a vast population of JW followers.

And why is Prince never ostracized for his behavior? He is very open about being a JW…I have known people to be disfellowed for smoking and dating outside of the JW belief system. I know one girl who was disfellowed for attending concerts in bars. Curious things to me!
Haha yes. Jehovah’s Witnesses do disfellowship they say it is out of the bible. That you should remove the unclean ones from you and put them back in the world. I dont understand why Catholics don’t do that. He was only telling the apostles and the other Christians at that time to eat and drink his blood supposly. When i read that i felt that it was directed to me and the rest of the Christians though. Yeh and the wedding rings I don’t understand why they would keep it.
 
So i think i can Justify celebrating birthdays and such. I always wondered why Celebrate anniversaries because God made marriage but did God not create life? I am still not sure if the Christians who celebrated Birthdays but they did give gifts to the King. Ok my next question being no part of the world. Now we know that Jesus said be no part of the world than why do Catholics do things part of the world such as going to war (that’s the Nations problem) Voting (again Nations problems) And other things considered part of the world. So why do they vote? For war are CAtholics not part of a brotherhood of Catholics. In the civil war and other wars and Catholic Could kill another Catholic. And world politics would divide the Church between republicans and Democrats. North and South with the civil war. Should the true Church be involved with all this??
 
So i think i can Justify celebrating birthdays and such. I always wondered why Celebrate anniversaries because God made marriage but did God not create life? I am still not sure if the Christians who celebrated Birthdays but they did give gifts to the King. Ok my next question being no part of the world. Now we know that Jesus said be no part of the world than why do Catholics do things part of the world such as going to war (that’s the Nations problem) Voting (again Nations problems) And other things considered part of the world. So why do they vote? For war are CAtholics not part of a brotherhood of Catholics. In the civil war and other wars and Catholic Could kill another Catholic. And world politics would divide the Church between republicans and Democrats. North and South with the civil war. Should the true Church be involved with all this??
Jesus tried to change the world, through the hearts of men. Likewise, the Church does not condone unjust wars and constantly prays for peace and those in harm’s way. In the instances of war the Church concerns itself with the souls of all involved, seeking to convert from all sides. Because of ‘nationalities’ Catholics have fought Catholics. What happened to German Catholics when they refused to serve in the German military in World War II?

Christ commanded those He chose and appointed to go out and preach the Gospel to ALL nations. I don’t see any exceptions in His command. He didn’t say, ‘but not if they’re at war’. Jehovah Witnesses have long twisted the Church’s ‘participation’ in the theater of wars, while they have not tried to change the hearts of those directly involved.

Voting is a most ‘pacifist’ way of bringing about change, yet Jehovah Witnesses sit back and do nothing, allowing secularism to run it’s course and in many instances allowing sin to prosper against God’s laws.

The Church teaches to form a faith based conscience and participate through a ‘spiritual’ eye.
 
See my other response. I didn’t want them in the same post.

A priest showed me that relationship in a beautiful picture that I wish I had to post here.
Can you remember what the Priest explained to you about the Trinity? I would love to hear it if you can remember?😃
 
Haha yes. Jehovah’s Witnesses do disfellowship they say it is out of the bible. That you should remove the unclean ones from you and put them back in the world. I dont understand why Catholics don’t do that. He was only telling the apostles and the other Christians at that time to eat and drink his blood supposly. When i read that i felt that it was directed to me and the rest of the Christians though. Yeh and the wedding rings I don’t understand why they would keep it.
I’m so glad that they don’t - I need a place to seek refuge when I fall from grace with God!
 
I found the picture online. It’s a great visual explanation.

http://www.heaven.net.nz/graphics/trinity.png
Beautiful, I had a somewhat clear understanding of the Trinity. But this clears it up for me.

So The Trinity is:

God IS the Father
God IS the Son
God IS the Holy Spirit

The Father IS NOT the Son
The Father IS NOT the Holy Spirit

The Son IS NOT the Father
The Son IS NOT the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Father
The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Son

So when I speak of the Holy Spirit, I’m speaking of God?
So when I speak of Jesus Christ, I’m speaking of God?
So when I speak of The Father, I’m speaking of God?

So God is all those combined, but are they different personalities or just God showing Himself through the Son, Father and the Holy Spirit?
 
Jesus tried to change the world, through the hearts of men. Likewise, the Church does not condone unjust wars and constantly prays for peace and those in harm’s way. In the instances of war the Church concerns itself with the souls of all involved, seeking to convert from all sides. Because of ‘nationalities’ Catholics have fought Catholics. What happened to German Catholics when they refused to serve in the German military in World War II?

Christ commanded those He chose and appointed to go out and preach the Gospel to ALL nations. I don’t see any exceptions in His command. He didn’t say, ‘but not if they’re at war’. Jehovah Witnesses have long twisted the Church’s ‘participation’ in the theater of wars, while they have not tried to change the hearts of those directly involved.

Voting is a most ‘pacifist’ way of bringing about change, yet Jehovah Witnesses sit back and do nothing, allowing secularism to run it’s course and in many instances allowing sin to prosper against God’s laws.

The Church teaches to form a faith based conscience and participate through a ‘spiritual’ eye.
But the wars in Afghanistan are not to convert. Like the crusades. That caused a lot of bad. Is that justified. And how do the Nations have the right to pick where to go to war with who. Should that not only be up to God. And possibly the Church? And if the Catholic Church is True why are so many people leaving it. Why are they doing bad and why did they make other groups against the Catholic Church. Is the end going to come soon or something like that. And when the end does come does the Bible not teach that the EARTH is going to become a paradise? The Bible talks about the Earth being filled with Grain. And if you want to convert all nations why not preech door to door and do better in the preeching work?

Ohhh, and also Idols. Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
And these people Like Jesus Mary and others are not up there in Body and flesh as the catholic Church teaches.

1 Cor 15: 42-50
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.
[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
 
I found the picture online. It’s a great visual explanation.

http://www.heaven.net.nz/graphics/trinity.png
I still don’t understand. I think I heard of that in some Kemetic (Egyptian) group i use to be in. But i think she borrowed it from the Catholic religion lol i see many things in the chants and stuff she did that i later found in the catholic. She would always use catholic explanations to explain the gods. Lol i find it funny now.

So where did this start. Can come one show me a quote from an early christian that says something similar to that please. I thank you all for showing me these things. 🙂

I think the reason why i can be so open minded about the Church is because i always felt drawn there. When i was young i remember for no reason in particular i said i want to be Catholic.
 
But the wars in Afghanistan are not to convert. Like the crusades. That caused a lot of bad. Is that justified. And how do the Nations have the right to pick where to go to war with who. Should that not only be up to God. And possibly the Church? And if the Catholic Church is True why are so many people leaving it. Why are they doing bad and why did they make other groups against the Catholic Church. Is the end going to come soon or something like that. And when the end does come does the Bible not teach that the EARTH is going to become a paradise? The Bible talks about the Earth being filled with Grain. And if you want to convert all nations why not preech door to door and do better in the preeching work?
The Church did not start a war in Afghanistan, nor did it order it started. Therefore, it’s nothing like the crusades. The Church actually called for diplomatic solutions. The Church’s presence in those type areas is for humanitarian reasons and through example and prayer hopefully people see the need to be Christian.

Where is your documentation for ‘so many leaving it’? I haven’t heard of this ‘mass exodus’ myself.

The end gets closer everyday, and has since Christ prophesied the end. No one knows when that will be, except the Father in heaven.

The Church cannot control everyone, or every nation. All have sinned and come short.

As for preaching door to door, how many Jehovah Witnesses are there in Afghanistan, Iraq or any other middle Eastern country trying to convert?
 
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