Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

[LennyUSA]

I do not Believe what they say because they said it i am simply taking it into account. I realy don’t know what to belive. I don’t know how to define truth. Please keep helping me with my questions. I do not want to make arguments. So then if Christ is God why did he talk to God? I don’t understand. And said God is greater than him if they are both God?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I do not Believe what they say because they said it i am simply taking it into account. I realy don’t know what to belive. I don’t know how to define truth. Please keep helping me with my questions. I do not want to make arguments. So then if Christ is God why did he talk to God? I don’t understand. And said God is greater than him if they are both God?

I am not trying to argue. I only wonder why we can so readily discount the writings of the early Church fathers, because of men far removed from the era of our discussion?

The Trinity is a mystery, but let’s take another approach. Your father was human and you are also human. Who was Christ’s father, in your honest opinion?

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

 

[LennyUSA]

He is God’s son. He had that authority to make the Church. He had that authority to do all the things he did. The whole world knows about him. Christ is God’s son.

 

[icamay]

The Trinity:

God IS the Father
God IS the Son
God IS the Holy Spirit

The Father IS NOT the Son
The Father IS NOT the Holy Spirit

The Son IS NOT the Father
The Son IS NOT the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Father
The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Son

 

[LennyUSA]

The Trinity:

God IS the Father
God IS the Son
God IS the Holy Spirit

The Father IS NOT the Son
The Father IS NOT the Holy Spirit

The Son IS NOT the Father
The Son IS NOT the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Father
The Holy Spirit IS NOT the Son

How. I am looking for explanations.

 

[icamay]

Over the past few decades, I have had many JW friends, and have examined their materials on numerous occasion. I am very surprised that your options have come down to JW and RCC - two entirely different beliefs, I wouldn’t have expected anyone to say that!

One thing about the RCC is that we accept the Bible as final authority, but we also have these wonderful resources of priests, bishops, and saints to help explain it. I would absolutely encourage you to take a list of the teachings you’ve learned from your JW friends and bring them to a priest to hear the RCC side - preferably one who specializes in cannonical law. It will go so much farther than an internet search or what you can learn on these forums. This is your entire religious future, it’s worth studying thoroughly with true experts. Good luck!

 

[icamay]

How. I am looking for explanations.

See my other response. I didn’t want them in the same post.

A priest showed me that relationship in a beautiful picture that I wish I had to post here.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

He is God’s son. He had that authority to make the Church. He had that authority to do all the things he did. The whole world knows about him. Christ is God’s son.

God’s Son is God, of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning, was the Word; and the Word was with God; and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the: Word became flesh, and tabernacled with us: and we saw his glory, a glory as of the only begotten from the Father, that he was full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John testified of him, and cried, and said: This is he, of whom I said, That he cometh after me, and is before me; for he was prior to me.

Joh 8:19 They say to him: Where is thy Father? Jesus replied, and said to them: Ye neither know me nor my Father. If ye had known me, ye would also have known my Father.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them: Verily, verily I say to you, That before Abraham existed, I was.
Joh 8:59 And they took up stones to stone him. But Jesus concealed himself, and went out of the temple, and passed along among them, and went away.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 And again the Jews took up stones, to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus said to them: Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews said to him: It is not on account of good works, that we stone thee: but because thou blasphemest; and, whilst thou art a man, thou makest thyself God.
(See Exodus 3:14, 20:7, Leviticus 19:12, 24:14-16)

Joh 10:38 But if I do [them], although ye believe not me, yet believe the works; that ye may know and believe, that my Father is in me, and I in my Father.

Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me, seeth him that sent me.

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him: Our Lord, show us the Father, and it will suffice for us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him: Have I been all this time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? He that seeth me, seeth the Father: and how sayest thou, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not, that I am in my Father, and my Father in me? And the words which I speak, I speak not from myself: but my Father, who dwelleth in me, he doeth these works.
Joh 14:11 Believe, that I am in my Father, and my Father in me. And if not, believe, at least, on account of the works.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say to you: He that believeth in me, the works which I do, will he also do. And greater than these will he do, because I go unto my Father.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God!

Col 2:9 in whom dwelleth all the fullness of the Divinity corporeally.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit hath established you bishops; that ye feed the church of God, which he hath acquired by his blood.

Eph 1:7 by whom we have redemption, and the forgiveness of sins by his blood, according to the riches of his grace,

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with each other and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all our sins.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the manifestation of the glory of the great God, and our Life-giver, Jesus the Messiah;

All the above scriptures show the divinity of Christ. They cannot all be corrupted.

 

[LennyUSA]

Over the past few decades, I have had many JW friends, and have examined their materials on numerous occasion. I am very surprised that your options have come down to JW and RCC - two entirely different beliefs, I wouldn’t have expected anyone to say that!

One thing about the RCC is that we accept the Bible as final authority, but we also have these wonderful resources of priests, bishops, and saints to help explain it. I would absolutely encourage you to take a list of the teachings you’ve learned from your JW friends and bring them to a priest to hear the RCC side - preferably one who specializes in cannonical law. It will go so much farther than an internet search or what you can learn on these forums. This is your entire religious future, it’s worth studying thoroughly with true experts. Good luck!

Haha Yes i am a rare sort. Well to start off i have always been drawn to the Catholic Church. And i wanted to know logic. jehovah’s Witnesses are always there. I see more of a union with Jehovah’s Witnesses. But many Witnesses came from the Catholic faith. One brother was telling me that he went to all the protestant churches and many books that went against Jehovah’s WItnesses and he was convinced that Jehovah’s Witnesses were there truth. But just about the only Christian religion he did not go to was the Catholic Church. He was raised Catholic so he did not believe anything they said. I here similar stories with other Witnesses. Not taking a second look at the Roman Catholic faith.

 

[LennyUSA]

God’s Son is God, of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

All the above scriptures show the divinity of Christ. They cannot all be corrupted.

Your right. Your just right. They can’t all be corrupt. It all makes sense. In some weird way it does. Christ is God. Wow God loves us so much to die in the flesh for us. Wow. Satan really does blind the non believers. JWs kept telling me that and I always thought that they are the un believers. Wow. I have so many more questions to be answered. I will be on here tomorrow. Please pray for me. Pray that i am Drawn to the true Church and that it is a happy process. Good night.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your right. Your just right. They can’t all be corrupt. It all makes sense. In some weird way it does. Christ is God. Wow God loves us so much to die in the flesh for us. Wow. Satan really does blind the non believers. JWs kept telling me that and I always thought that they are the un believers. Wow. I have so many more questions to be answered. I will be on here tomorrow. Please pray for me. Pray that i am Drawn to the true Church and that it is a happy process. Good night.

Good night and happy Easter. You’re in my prayers.

 

[icamay]

Your right. Your just right. They can’t all be corrupt. It all makes sense. In some weird way it does. Christ is God. Wow God loves us so much to die in the flesh for us. Wow. Satan really does blind the non believers. JWs kept telling me that and I always thought that they are the un believers. Wow. I have so many more questions to be answered. I will be on here tomorrow. Please pray for me. Pray that i am Drawn to the true Church and that it is a happy process. Good night.

Definitely! You are still very young, and I find that to be a sign that God has great plans for you. While most youth are worried about music and video games, you are worried about God’s true church. I see great things in your future!

I pray that as God guides you, you may see His roadsigns along the way. It may be a long and rocky path, but trust Him and He will never lead you astray.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Thank you. Ok here is another Issue on my mind. Jesus is the same person as God? But why then did Jesus pray to God? And many time Jesus said that God is above him. Here in John 20:17 it said that Jesus has not ascend to the Father. So how could just go to the Father if he is the Father? It says Jesus was a god and my god but in Psalms 82: 1-6 refers to judges as gods. In 17:3 it talks as god and Jesus as two different people. The one you sent forth Jesus Christ it says. So how is Jesus lower then God but is God? And where it says worship to Jesus at Matthew 14:33 JWs says it actually translates as to do obeisance to. John 14:28 says the Father is Greater than I Here in the Douay You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. www.drbo.org

We would say that Jesus is God, but not the same person as the Father, who is the source of all essence of God. Now, since Jesus is not the same person as the Father, you can see how Jesus can pray to the Father, since Jesus is the Son and not the Father. They are different persons. But as the Son, in a sense the Father is greater, since Fathers are “greater” than sons. But, fathers and sons are of the same essence as each other, share the same order of being. The order of being for the Father and Son is that of Godship, which they share bodily, as scripture puts it. That is what is meant by “begotten,” as opposed to created or made.

Was the Father always the Father? Yes, since He does not change. Therefore the Father always had a Son, and we say the Son is begotten from the Father from all eternity. That is the distinction from “created.” Fathers do not make or create their sons, they beget them. Therefore, the Son is not created.

“Do obeisance” and “worship.” In the original Greek manuscripts there is only one word, “proskeneous” (my bad transliteration!), not two words, as the Watchtower New World translation does it. The NWT takes care not to translate the word as worship when it refers to Jesus. But it is the same inspired Greek word nevertheless when applied to worship of the Father or worship of Jesus.

The stated goal of the NWT was to produce a literal translation so the reader whould know what the actual Greek said, not what the translators thought it should say, thereby hiding what the Greek taught. That is a laudable goal, but that is what the NWT does not do. It really does just the opposite, by putting in “do obeisance” or “worship” according to the bias of the NWT translators. There are other examples of this, such as John 1:1 where it is translated “the Word was a god,” instead of the more usual “the Word was God.”

However, either translation poses problems for monotheists, because the Greek word, “theos,” God, is referred to Jesus. Jesus is obviously a different person from the Father, so, how can the inspired word of God get away with applying theos to Jesus without violating monotheism?

One solution, the one adopted by the Watchtower, is to say that Jesus is a lttle god sitting at the right hand of the Father. But this is not in keeping with Isaiah 45:21-22–“there is no other god besides me, righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me…for I am God and there is no other.”

This means to call Jesus “a god” is against scripture. There can be no “god” besides the Father. Since we know Jesus is beside the Father, He cannot be another god, but must in some way be the same God, sharing the Godship bodily…

This is the position taken by historic Christianity. Jesus is called God in the earliest writings of the first Christians, so we know that is how they believed from the beginning. Jesus’ divinity is not totally understood, but neither is God Himself totally understood.

 

[Rolltide]

LennyUSA requested that I post a brief history of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for him. I’ve posted an article about this before, so I will repost that information here.

I’ll be taking this information and the quotes from articles right here on Catholic Answers (CA) and the Wikipedia (W) article on the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Also before we begin, a definition:
Eschatology: a part of theology and philosophy concerned with the final events in the history of the world or the ultimate destiny of human kind, commonly phrased as the end of the world.

Here is what the two articles state, in summary, with my own commentary added in bold:

1. Charles Taze Russell has a crisis of faith as a Congregationalist at age 17, and becomes an agnostic. (He doesn’t believe in God, but doesn’t deny the possibility of God.) This is a young man who is having a crisis of faith, and struggling to find out what he believes.
2. After a few years, he goes to an Adventist meeting. This group, led by William Miller, believed that the world would end in 1843, but it doesn’t So, they mysteriously “find” an error in their calculations and re-predict the end of the world in 1844. Again, it doesn’t happen (obviously). Most people leave this movement, believing it to be a fraud, although a few, led by Ellen G. White, go on to found the Seventh-Day Adventists. In other words, the Adventists have TWICE incorrectly predicted the end of the world, causing most (but not all) followers to abandon their ideas.
3. Jonas Wendell gets Russell interested in Bible prophecy again. In 1876, Russell met Nelson H. Barbour and subsequently adopted Barbour’s eschatology. Barbour had predicted a visible return of Christ for 1873, and when that failed to occur, he revised the prediction to 1874. In other words, Russell hooks up with Nelson Barbour, who also incorrectly predicts a visible return for Christ (the end of the world)… twice!
4. Soon after the second disappointment, Barbour’s group decided Christ had returned to the earth in 1874, but invisibly. They differed from most Second Adventists by teaching that all of humankind descended from Adam would be given a chance to live in a paradise Earth. The year 1914 was seen as the final end, marking a forty-year period from 1874. So, his predictions did not come true, and changes his story to claim that Jesus came to Earth “invisibly” in 1874. After forty years on Earth, the world would then finally end in 1914. This is a skeptical claim from someone who had so clearly failed to predict the future. (I’d also like to point out at this point that are several apparitions and miracles that Catholics believe, such as Fatima, that did correctly predict the future.)
5. It was this diminished Adventism which influenced Russell. In July 1879, Russell broke with Barbour over the concept of substitutionary atonement and he soon began publishing his own magazine, Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence (now known as The Watchtower). After the break, Russell retained the bulk of Barbour’s eschatological views. He was known as “Pastor Russell” (who took the title “Pastor” even though he never got through high school), and in 1881 formed the legal entity which developed into the non-profit organization: The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania (currently headquartered in New York City). In 1884, it was incorporated with Russell as president. He authored the six-volume series, Studies in the Scriptures. Now, we have Russell breaking with Barbour, but keeping his views about the end of the world (the one thing that he’s clearly been wrong about in the past!). It’s also important to note that Russell doesn’t even have a high school education. Now, this isn’t necessarily bad or uncommon for that day and age, but the less educated are far more susceptible to having people who know more than them talk them into an idea that may be incorrect. They won’t have the knowledge to refute it.
6. Before he got his religious career well underway, Russell promoted what he called “miracle wheat,” which he sold at sixty dollars per bushel. He claimed it would grow five times as well as regular wheat. In fact, it grew slightly less well than regular wheat, as was established in court when Russell was sued. Later he marketed a fake cancer cure and what he termed a “millennial bean”. At first, it might seem like this doesn’t have anything directly to do with his faith, but it demonstrates a pattern. Whether he was actively conning people, or whether he was just gullible (possibly due to his lack of education), he was involved in at least three other false, and possibly corrupt, schemes in his early life.
7. Russell taught his followers the non-existence of hell and the annihilation of unsaved people (a doctrine he picked up from the Adventists), the non-existence of the Trinity (he said only the Father, Jehovah, is God), the identification of Jesus with Michael the Archangel, the reduction of the Holy Spirit from a person to a force, the mortality (not immortality) of the soul, and the return of Jesus in 1914. Important here is the idea that Russell is picking up some of his doctrine (including the imminent end of the world) from the Adventists, which were wrong time and time again. If their denomination is wrong, why did Russell adopt ideas from it? If they are right, why isn’t everyone Adventist today?

continued…

 

[Rolltide]

Here is part 2, still discussing the history of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Another comment before we get started. Isn’t it interesting how so far, the major ideas of the Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to have nothing to do with the Bible, but the personal opinions of two individuals who clearly have major theological problems of their own?

1. When 1914 had come and gone, with no Jesus in sight, Russell modified his teachings and claimed Jesus had, in fact, returned to Earth, but that his return was invisible. His visible return would come later, but still very soon. It would result in the final conflict between God and the Devil—the forces of good and the forces of evil—in which God would be victorious. This conflict is known to Witnesses as the battle of Armageddon, and just about everything the Witnesses teach centers around this doctrine. Here we have a FIFTH incorrect prediction in the life of Russell. He didn’t make the first four, but he believed in them. Now he becomes more vague, saying that Jesus is still here invisibly, and that the visible return would be “soon”. For someone who is supposedly guided by Jehovah in things like scriptural interpretation, he is making (and following people that are making) a tremendous amount of errors.
2. Russell died on October 31, 1916, and following his death, an editorial committee of five was set up to supervise the writing of the Watch Tower magazine, as set forth in Russell’s Last Will and Testament. On January 6, 1917, Joseph Franklin Rutherford (also known as “Judge Rutherford”) was elected second President of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. New by-laws were passed at the same business meeting that strengthened the President’s authority. Initially, the board of directors for the Watch Tower Society accepted this change, but four of the board members withdrew their support. The June 20, 1917 meeting of the full board of directors tabled, for one month, a proposal to return control of the Society to the board, but Rutherford prevented their attempt. Matters came to a head on July 17, 1917 when the book The Finished Mystery was published. Rutherford announced that he was dismissing the four directors and replacing them with new members. Dissension and schisms ensued in congregations worldwide as a result of these events, and of the consequences of new predictions made for the years 1918, 1920 and 1925. At one time Rutherford claimed Russell was next to Paul as an expounder of the gospel, but later, in an effort to have his writings supplant Russell’s, he let Russell’s books go out of print. It was Rutherford who coined the slogan, “Millions now living will never die.” By it he meant that some people alive in 1914 would still be alive when Armageddon came and the world was restored to a paradise state. The death of Russell causes dissent and schism. The organization itself can’t even keep control of its beliefs. THREE more failed predictions occur, bringing the total to eight (if you include the Adventist predictions). Rutherford tries to seize control and impose his own beliefs on the group. He even has his own books replace those of Russell! All of this causes many people to become disillusioned and leave.
3. In the 1925 prophecy, Rutherford stated that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the prophets would return to Earth, and so he prepared for them a mansion named Beth Sarim in San Diego, California. He moved into this mansion (where he died in 1942) and bought an automobile with which to drive the resurrected patriarchs around. The Watch Tower Society quietly sold Beth Sarim years later to cover up an embarrassing moment in their history, namely another failed prophecy. **This paragraph pretty much speaks for itself. Try searching for Beth Sarim on the internet and see what you find. I can provide you with links, articles, and pictures if necessary, and I have my own separate article on this issue. Also note that Watchtower Publications have continuously changed their story regarding Beth Sarim over the years (to cover up their mistaken prophecy), and this can be historically documented. **
4. An emphasis on preaching house-to-house began in 1922. By 1928, attendance at their yearly Memorial dropped nearly 75% from 1922, due to the previous power struggle, the failed predictions for the year 1925, and the evolving doctrinal changes which alienated those who sided with Russell’s views.

From 1925 to 1933, their eschatological beliefs underwent radical changes. In 1931, the name “Jehovah’s Witnesses” was adopted. By 1933, 1914 was seen as the beginning of Christ’s presence, his enthronement as king, and the start of the last days instead of being considered the terminal date in their chronology.

Under Rutherford, membership grew from about 44,000 in 1928 to about 115,000 at the time of his death in 1942.

So, the doctrine changed SO MUCH by 1928, that over 75% of the organization simply quit. They officially adopt the name "Jehovah’s Witnesses, and, as seen in point #9, adopt the idea that some of the people alive in 1914 WILL be alive at the time of the Second Coming. They also begin house-to-house preaching. They really almost had to, since their numbers were declining so severely.

continued…

 

[Rolltide]

1. Nathan Homer Knorr succeeded Rutherford as president of the Watch Tower Society. Known as an efficient administrator, Knorr founded the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead to train missionaries, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School to train preaching and teaching at the congregational level. (It is under Knorr that the Jehovah’s Witnesses earn their reputation as skillful deliverers of “personal testimonies.”

Knorr’s vice-president Frederick William Franz became the leading theologian, and is believed to have been the principal translator of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Also produced were a Greek-English New Testament interlinear (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures) and a Bible dictionary (Aid to Bible Understanding). Since the Bible, as preserved through the centuries, did not support the peculiar doctrines of the Witnesses, Knorr chose an anonymous committee to produce the New World Translation, which is used by no sect other than the Witnesses. By means of former Witnesses, the names of the five members of the translation committee eventually came to light. Four of the five members completely lack credentials to qualify them as Bible translators, and the fifth member studied non-biblical Greek for only about two years.

The offices of elder and ministerial servant (deacon) were restored to Witness congregations in 1972, with appointments being made from headquarters. Membership rose from 115,000 to over 2 million under Knorr’s leadership.

**What seems to be the conclusion, based on what we’ve learned so far? The Jehovah’s Witnesses, having changed doctrine so many times and with so many failed predictions, were forced to alter the Bible to support their beliefs. Four of the five translators couldn’t even translate Greek! Now, this next quote came from the Catholic Answers article, but it indicates the types of things other religions accuse the New World Translation of changing:

“The New World Translation was produced because it buttresses Witnesses’ beliefs through obscure or inaccurate renderings. For example, to prove that Jesus was only a creature, not God, the New World Translation’s rendering of John 1:1 concludes this way: “and the Word was a god” [italics added]. Every other translation, Catholic and Protestant—not to mention the Greek original—has “and the Word was God.””

IF this is true, you can see that such a rendering would eliminate the references to the divinity of Jesus and his equality with God. Such a change would undermine Trinitarian religions. Mind you, I’m NOT telling you to automatically accept that is what happened. You can decide for yourself. But, you can at least acknowledge that if such a change DID occur, it would change the entire interpretation of the Bible. Catholics and Protestants argue that similar subtle changes were made throughout the Bible.**

1. Knorr was succeeded as head of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, by Frederick Franz. He had been the Witnesses’ leading theologian, and his services were often called upon. During the 1960s and early 1970s, various references appeared in Witnesses’ literature and assemblies, implying that Christ’s thousand-year millennial reign might begin by 1975. The chronology pointing to 1975 was noted in the secular media at the time. When it didn’t, Franz had to find an explanation.

Witnesses believe that Adam was created in 4026 B.C. and that human beings have been allotted 6000 years of existence until Armageddon and the beginning of the millennium. This figure is based on a “creative week” in which each of six days is equal to 1,000 years, with the Sabbath or seventh day being the beginning of the millennium. Simple arithmetic gives 1975 as the year Armageddon would arrive. Franz explained that Armageddon would actually come 6000 years after Eve’s creation. But when 1975 came and went, the Witnesses had to “adjust” their chronology to cover up a failed prediction. They accomplished this by maintaining that no one knew exactly how long after Adam’s creation Eve came on the scene. Franz said that it was months—even years. Hence he was able to “stretch” the 1975 date to some indeterminate time in the future. In any case, Franz said that Witnesses would just have to wait, knowing the end is right around the corner.

From 1975 to 1980, there was a drop in membership following the failure of this prediction to materialize. In 1980, the Watchtower Society admitted its responsibility in building up hope regarding the year 1975.

HOW many times is this now that the organization failed to predict the Second Coming? This time, even the secular media picked up the story. In this case, the Watchtower Society even admitted some responsibility that it was at fault, and that their over-enthusiasm over certain writings about 1975 were misleading. Again, membership drops. Note that Franz is resorting to having to “recalculate” the date yet again, just as was done in 1874 and 1914.

continued…

 

[Rolltide]

1. The leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses was reorganized in 1976 and the power of the presidency passed on to the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Subsequent presidents of the Watch Tower Society after Knorr’s death in 1977 have been Frederick William Franz, Milton George Henschel (1993) and Don A. Adams. However, since 1976, doctrinal and organizational decisions have been made by the Governing Body. In 1995 the Watchtower quietly changed one of its major prophetic doctrines. Until this point, they had maintained that the generation alive in 1914 would not pass from the scene until Armageddon occurred. Now that this generation has almost entirely died out—and Armageddon has not occurred and does not seem like it will happen immediately—they had to change their doctrine. Now, the Watchtower says that Armageddon will simply occur “soon,” and it is no longer tied to a particular, literal generation of people.

**And so as recently as 15 years ago… yet another change in doctrine! It seems very suspicious that one of the core doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses has been rewritten again, again, and again. Certainly, this is not the only argument against the organization, but it’s the 800 pound elephant in the room. (In other words, it’s such a glaring error, it can’t be ignored.) **

1. As of August 2005, Jehovah’s Witnesses have a membership of more than 6.6 million actively involved in preaching. Jehovah’s Witnesses have an active presence in most countries. In no country are they a large part of the population, however. Brazil and Mexico are the only countries other than the U.S. where the number of active Witness publishers exceeds half a million.

**If the Jehovah’s Witnesses are indeed the correct faith, why are so few people across the world in the organization? How are so many fundamental errors explained? Why is it primarily an American phenomenon? Why have SO many people left the group at SO many points during the past?
**

 

[Rolltide]

This concludes the historical outline of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I will now present a brief analysis.

Ok, what you’ve just read above is a very long combination of the Catholic Answers article and the Wikipedia article. I encourage you to read it over very closely. Think about the various points. Do you own research. Look up Beth Sarim. Also, when the Watchtower reprints its newsletters and publications, it has been known to go back and change what was said to cover up its poor history of prophecy. This is documented extensively and I can find you the references if you like. In light of all of this evidence, is it at least possible that the Watchtower could have altered the New World Translation to suit it’s needs?

There is a lot of information above, so let me summarize what conclusions I believe it leads to. Let me make it clear that this is no one’s opinion but my own.

**Charles Taze Russell is a good, but uneducated young man. At 17, he has a crisis of faith after getting in over his head in an argument with an athiest. He falls prey to (or actively engages in) a variety of dubious schemes, and finally is drawn toward Adventism. He becomes unhappy. He wants to be a good person in a world that isn’t very good, so he’s drawn toward an organization that believes that this world will pass in the very near future. It would end all of his current problems on Earth and allow him eternal happiness. It fails to occur, but he continues to believe that this world will be over soon. This, above all, influences his beliefs. It’s a psychological and spiritual need, rather than any complex Biblical view.

Russell finds his calling in religion and begins to write. He borrows many ideas from the Adventists, rather than creating them himself. He breaks with Barbour, and makes his own predictions, which fail to materialize. Russell dies having created a belief system that helps to sooth his own troubled spirituality.

Joseph Franklin Rutherford seizes control of the organization in what amounts to a hostile takeover. He throws out many of Russell’s beliefs, and makes three more incorrect prophecies, including the one involving Beth Sarim. Three-fourths of the organization simply leaves the group. To stop these huge losses, new president Nathan Homer Korr institutes door-to-door evangelization.

The doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is now so far from what the Bible says, that Korr authorizes the New World Translation to force the book to support their views. (Please note that when the NWT came out, almost every single review was highly critical of the translation, pointing out that it was, at best, a transliteration, not a translation. This is where you create a very inaccurate translation that gives the rough idea of what the original says. It often has the effect of making it easier to read, too. That, of course, would be very helpful for someone not very experienced in reading the Bible.) Only one person could even translate Greek, and even he had insufficient background to have the necessary skills for the job.

By 1975, you have yet another failed prophecy that results in more people leading the organization. Even as late as last year, there are only 6.6 million followers of the group. Despite ALL their evangelization, they are rarely successful outside of the United States. Their biggest target group is former Catholics, since most Catholics grow up learning from the Catechism rather than from the Bible. They are not nearly as familiar with Bible study, and so don’t have the necessary skills to point out the many flaws in the doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
**

 

[pablope]

Thank you. Ok here is another Issue on my mind. Jesus is the heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. www.drbo.org

From:

catholic.com/library/God_of_the_Jehovah_Witnesses.asp

Is Christ Inferior?

The Witnesses argue that the Son is inferior in nature to the Father from verses such as these: “The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing” (John 5:19). “I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and you do not know him. I know him because I am a representative from him, and that one sent me forth” (John 7:28-29). “I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28).

What can be said about these verses? First, they may be referring to Christ’s human nature, as distinguished from his divine nature. His human nature, being created, is clearly subordinate to the Father’s divine nature.

Second, they may also refer to Christ’s person insofar as the person of the Son is generated or begotten by the person of the Father. This doesn’t mean he is unequal in his divine nature and therefore not divine. It means there is a certain logical relationship between the two persons of the Father and the Son (who are both equally divine) in which it may be said, rightly, that “the Father is greater than I”—greater in the order of the three divine persons, not greater in the order of nature or being.

Third, they may refer to the Son’s role in the economy of redemption.

[SIGN]He came to fulfill the Father’s will in redeeming us and to reveal the Father to us, thus serving the Father. Hence, the Father holds a position in some sense superior to his. Thus the Son might be said to be inferior to the Father in the role he plays, but not in his essential nature. [/SIGN]

Are there verses that argue against the Witnesses’ position? Sure. One example is John 5:1-18, where Jesus cures a man on the Sabbath. The Jews became angry because Jesus “worked” on the Sabbath, and in response Jesus said, “‘My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.’ On this account indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God” (verses 17-18). Only God can be equal to himself, and this passage therefore shows that Jesus is God.

The Witnesses also ignore the import of Matthew 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” Another translator’s slip here? Note the singular “name.” If the Father, Son, and “holy spirit” were three different entities—God, exalted creature, and impersonal force—then they’d have three names, not one name. The fact that the singular is used implies a unity of being.

What is that one name that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit share? If there is a single, revealed name for all three Persons, that name may be Yahweh. There can be no question that God is referred to in the Old Testament as Yahweh (understood by the JWs as “Jehovah”), and this name applies to the Son as well. For example, Jesus speaking in John 8:24 says, “Therefore I said to you, You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins.” Notice that the NWT has added “he” in brackets to obscure the fact that the Greek words here are the words for “I Am.” (“He” is not present.) An identical situation occurs at John 8:28.

As any Bible student knows, “I Am” corresponds to Jehovah or Yahweh (cf. Ex. 3:14:“God said to Moses . . . ‘Say to the people of Israel, ‘I Am has sent me to you,’” RSV).

Go over these verses carefully with the next Witness who comes to your door.

Remember, the Witnesses take verses out of context. They are the preeminent proof-texters. Often the very next verse will undercut their interpretation of the single verse they’re expounding to you.

[SIGN]Never accept their interpretations or their NWT at face value. Always have on hand Catholic and Protestant translations with which to compare the NWT. Read everything in context.[/SIGN]

 

[LennyUSA]

Ok, I think I understand that. So many times the Witnesses changes what the bible says but the general meaning is still there. But the bible i thought was not written by 6 people because in my NWT bible it says that all the people that were making it would remain Anonymous.
So i guess Jesus could be God. I am not entirely sure about that yet. But the other things holidays are traditions of man. Birthdays would not have been celebrated by early Christians. Meaning the ones when Jesus was around. The only time the bible ever mentions birthdays were twice. When King Herod beheaded John the Baptist and a Pharaohs Birthdays. And Jesus was not born in December because they would not have had their flocks out at that time. And even if we knew exactly when Jesus was born we would not celebrate it ether. And Easter is incredibly pagan. The eggs symbolize fertility in pagan traditions. And Jesus wanted us to remember it on the Passover correct? Not every day as the Catholic do with daily Mass. I don’t know if that’s true. After i had had these questions answered we will touch on the history of the Catholic Church.