Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

[pablope]

Yeh I don’t understand that ether. In purgatory dose that mean that we will all be forgiven? Do people really go to hell. What qualifys them to go to hell? Sorry I am taught that there is no hell so it’s hard to understand. . Sorry for the multiple questions again.

Indeed, there is Hell…for those who have choose to be in a state of mortal sin and who do not repent…then there is also the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit…

Mark 3: 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Purgatory is for those going to heaven, but cannot enter yet.

Purgatory is like a final step, sort of a cleansing, all of your attachments to sin, prior to entering Heaven. As Rev 21 says, nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

As Rev 14 says…

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.

 

[rikkk1958]

Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. [1 Cor 3:12-15]

In the Book of Maccabees, there are passages that refers to praying for the dead.

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [CCC 1030-1031]

Although “purgatory” is not found in the Scriptures, the Church decided to name this state of purification which is purging of the soul. Catholics believes that the Church never ceased in giving such dogma because the Holy Bible will always be alive when Jesus proclaimed to His Apostles that they should go and teach to all nations.

 

[LennyUSA]

Ok this all makes sence. Jehovah’s Witnesses say what the teach go along with the bible but just by doing my own bible reading (with out JW aids) i have found vrs. the controdicting what they teach. I don’t go to sleep stressing about JWs teaching. I never realy believed what they said. I kinda wish i never started studing with them. In has put me down so much it just dosnt feel natural.

I think Holy Spirit is puting me on the right track now. I thank God for that. thank you everyone for all you help. I will continue asking questions growing in faith. It’s weird after just a few days of reserching i feel convinced of this. Maby it’s becasue i have no where else to go. Idk. I kinda knew when i started asking questiongs that i will find that the Catholic Church is true. I still need help in finding love for God. I understand that takes time to make right?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Well, I think it is wonderful that we are having such a civil and informative discussion!

I’ve been approached by Jehovah’s Witnesses even in the streets. One difficulty I’ve always had is to discuss the Bible with them when the NWT is so different from any other translation.

Jason Evert’s book on Jehovah’s Witnesses provides the best answers to the issues of contention between Catholics and JW’s.

The fact that our truth-seeking friend here is asking questions about the Catholic Church etc. ALREADY shows that God’s Grace is very active within his soul. The Jehovah’s Witnesses I know would cringe at the thought of one of their own actually asking questions about religion from non-JW’s. They warn their members and potential converts against doing this.

I also know that when Jehovah’s Witnesses or those who attend the Kingdom Halls (there are many who don’t belong to the Watchtower organization but go to the Halls) become Catholics, they become model Catholics for everyone.

It is almost as if they are seeking to serve the Lord in the most sincere way possible. And this is most definitely from the Holy Spirit.

I think our truth-seeking friend here should feel he is most welcome and loved truly by all of us here (and he is) - and that he would be very, very welcome in the Catholic Church whenever he feels ready to begin that journey.

One good way to begin the comparison is by reviewing the New Testament of the NWT with that of any other good Bible translation.

And then we only need to ask God to give us the faith that He wants us to have.

He will answer our prayer, to be sure!

God bless our friend ever so richly!

Alex

 

[kaneata]

After the JW’s came to our house repeatedly, I realized that I had to do a lot of research on my own because what they were saying sounded very convincing, but I knew it was not what the Bible said. In a round about way they were very helpful in strengthen my faith. But I have to say I was strong enough in knowing that the Catholic Church was where I belonged. I now know the history of the Catholic Church and why we believe what we do.

LennyUSA-- It is very important to read a Bible. The book the JW’s use does not have the message of God, it has the message of the JW’s and which message do you want?

Jesus started the Catholic Church. For me that’s good enough to stay in it!

As far as hell goes, read Matt 25:31-46 about feeding the hungry. The JW don’t even have the last line,“And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.”

From the development of your posts, it looks like the Holy Spirit is leading you in the right direction. Listen to Him.

 

[LennyUSA]

After the JW’s came to our house repeatedly, I realized that I had to do a lot of research on my own because what they were saying sounded very convincing, but I knew it was not what the Bible said. In a round about way they were very helpful in strengthen my faith. But I have to say I was strong enough in knowing that the Catholic Church was where I belonged. I now know the history of the Catholic Church and why we believe what we do.

LennyUSA-- It is very important to read a Bible. The book the JW’s use does not have the message of God, it has the message of the JW’s and which message do you want?

Jesus started the Catholic Church. For me that’s good enough to stay in it!

As far as hell goes, read Matt 25:31-46 about feeding the hungry. The JW don’t even have the last line,“And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life.”

From the development of your posts, it looks like the Holy Spirit is leading you in the right direction. Listen to Him.

Thankyou. You know you should sit down with a JW and have a talk about the bible. It is uncommon for them to have talks with Catholics. I mean don’t belive and thing they say but respectfully show them your view point. They might even convert.

 

[LennyUSA]

So is the Holy Spirit a pirson or a force like the JW’s say?

 

[kaneata]

Thankyou. You know you should sit down with a JW and have a talk about the bible. It is uncommon for them to have talks with Catholics. I mean don’t belive and thing they say but respectfully show them your view point. They might even convert.

They used to be Catholic. And I find it amazing the petty reason they used to reject the Church. When we did start sharing the Catholic point of view and asking them questions on why what they believe doesn’t jive with The Bible, and where their authority comes from, that was the last time they came back. They knew we were a waste of their “hours.” We invited them to hear more about Catholism. Maybe we were too much of a threat to their own personal beliefs.

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. A force is not a person, the JW said it was more like electricity. The Bible uses the pronoun, he not it. In Acts13:2 the HS is talking. Acts 10:19 the HS tells Peter to answer the door! In John 16:13 the Spirit leads. In Acts 5:1-11, Peter talks about Ananias lying to the Holy Spirit in verse 3 then lying to God in verse 4.

We need to let God be God. He showed us who He is in the Bible, the real Bible. It may be hard for some to understand the concept of 3 persons in 1, or that Jesus really is God but that’s what the Bible says. As others have said, we need to believe what the Bible says, not change the Bible to make it say what we want it to.

 

[SteveVH]

They used to be Catholic. And I find it amazing the petty reason they used to reject the Church. When we did start sharing the Catholic point of view and asking them questions on why what they believe doesn’t jive with The Bible, and where their authority comes from, that was the last time they came back. They knew we were a waste of their “hours.” We invited them to hear more about Catholism. Maybe we were too much of a threat to their own personal beliefs.

When I am visited by JW’s I invite them in only if they agree to have at least five visits with me. Very little can be accomplished in one meeting. I have never had them return for the second meeting. They are not interested in discussing anything when they are challenged. They have their “talking points” and are usually not prepared to discuss anything outside of those parameters. They are more interested in filling their quota for the day which means visiting as many houses as they can. Five or six addresses look much better on their report than one or two.

 

[kaneata]

When I am visited by JW’s I invite them in only if they agree to have at least five visits with me. Very little can be accomplished in one meeting. I have never had them return for the second meeting. They are not interested in discussing anything when they are challenged. They have their “talking points” and are usually not prepared to discuss anything outside of those parameters. They are more interested in filling their quota for the day which means visiting as many houses as they can. Five or six addresses look much better on their report than one or two.

We were able to have them come back maybe 5 or 6 times. Jim would bring someone new each time. It was very interesting and we enjoyed the challange. But I think they realized that, especially after I had found this site and spent hours here reading, researching, and reading the Bible, that they weren’t going to get anywhere with us.

After talking with them, Mormons and reading other threads I find it amazing that people can believe what they do. There is only one correct answer! And when the test comes at the end, I want to have the right answer.

 

[josephback]

THey think that only the people in the 144,000 (the ones going to heaven) should take part in eating the bread and wine. Every one else just passes it. They do it once a year.

Ok. I was talking about the belief in the Body and Blood. Is there any other way to stay true to the text and interpret the communion verses? Also, how do they know who the 144,000 who should partake are? Just a thought.

Peace,
Joe

 

[LennyUSA]

Ok. I was talking about the belief in the Body and Blood. Is there any other way to stay true to the text and interpret the communion verses? Also, how do they know who the 144,000 who should partake are? Just a thought.

Peace,
Joe

Yeh they think it is the body and blood. They interpret that way only the 144,000 can eat it is because all the people that were Christians in Jesus’ day are going to heaven part or the 144,000. They don’t know how the 144,000 is they just leve it up to the pirson and holy spirit guide him.

 

[Nicea325]

So is the Holy Spirit a pirson or a force like the JW’s say?

No! The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity.JW’s say it is a force because they reject the Trinity. Here is a challenge I pose on JW’s:

If God is not three persons,then explain the following:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all** the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (Gen 1:26)

Who is the US in the above passage?**

 

[LennyUSA]

No! The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity.JW’s say it is a force because they reject the Trinity. Here is a challenge I pose on JW’s:

If God is not three persons,then explain the following:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all** the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (Gen 1:26)

Who is the US in the above passage?**

THey would say Jesus and the Angles.

I want to touch on God’s name again. I think it was said that Jews never used God’s name but it was used in the Old Testement some 7000 times. Did Jesus use it? And also Jesus’ name would have been said diffirently in hebrew. So would we not use Jesus’ name?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
No! The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity.JW’s say it is a force because they reject the Trinity. Here is a challenge I pose on JW’s:

If God is not three persons,then explain the following:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all** the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (Gen 1:26)

Who is the US in the above passage? **

THey would say Jesus and the Angles.

I want to touch on God’s name again. I think it was said that Jews never used God’s name but it was used in the Old Testement some 7000 times. Did Jesus use it? And also Jesus’ name would have been said diffirently in hebrew. So would we not use Jesus’ name?

 

[LennyUSA]

Jesus? Yes! Holy Spirt? Yes! Angels? Nope! Where does God state He created the angels in His image? Second, another bogus belief by JWs, Jesus was created first. If Jesus was created,then explain how one of God’s creation (Jesus) could redeem and save ALL of humanity? Only God is capable of redeeming and saving ALL of humanity. Hhmmm?

I thought Jesus created the Angels first. God created people before Angels? Realy? I thought Angels and the Heavens were created before humans. So when did God create Angels?

 

[mackbrislawn]

I want to touch on God’s name again. I think it was said that Jews never used God’s name but it was used in the Old Testement some 7000 times. Did Jesus use it? And also Jesus’ name would have been said diffirently in hebrew. So would we not use Jesus’ name?

The Name, the Tetragrammaton, was written in the Old Testament, but when the Jews read it, they did not say the Name, but the word Adonai, Lord, was pronounced instead. Jesus never contradicts this practice. He criticizes the Jewish religious leaders for other things, but not this.

In the New Testament, the Name, the four consonants YHWH, does not appear.

However, in the New Testament, Jesus does tell us to call God Father, as in “Our Father.” And when Jesus does say that He made his Father’s name known, that would mean he made His Father’s reputation or qualities known.

The Apostle Paul does this when he preached in Athens. Paul said to the Athenians: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him.” Acts 17:22

Paul goes on to explain other things about God and what God does and what He is like. Paul never mentions a name for God, even though this would have been his golden opportunity to do so, if it were important. Why did Paul not say, “I see you have a monument to an unknown God. Well, the unknown God is named Jehovah! You need to call him that!” No, Paul didn’t do that at all; what he did do was describe the true God. So the Athenians would know what the true God was, and what He did, and how to worship Him. Use of a name was not important to Paul for worship.

Therefore the correct use of God’s name is it’s description of Him, “I am who am.” God is existence itself. God doesn’t have being, God IS being. God doesn’t possess, He IS. Hence, God does not have an “active force,” He IS an active force. Otherwise known as the Holy Spirit.

 

[kaneata]

I want to touch on God’s name again.

God (in the OT) refered to Himself as “I Am” Jesus also used the same term, John 8:57-59 ("…before Abraham ever was, I Am") though the JW’s added a -he- to change the meaning. In verse 59 the Jews knew exactly what He meant by saying “I Am”. That’s why they wanted to stone Him, He was saying He was God.

When the JW’s visited us they really wanted to drive the point home that we need to remember His name. I said we know His name. Is that the main point of God’s message—to remember His name??? I would guess they would say no but, they put way too much emphasis on His name.

 

[Nicea325]

I thought Jesus created the Angels first. God created people before Angels? Realy? I thought Angels and the Heavens were created before humans. So when did God create Angels?

Yes God did create the angels first, before creating humanity. If I am correct, the Bible does not explicitly state when He created angels. Nonetheless, the belief by JW’s Jesus was created is totally false and contradictory to Scripture. Where do the Apostles teach Jesus was only created and was NOT God?

 

[mackbrislawn]

JW’s do teach that Jesus was created, but the Bible does not say that. The Bible teaches that Jesus is only-begotten, not created.

See John 3:16 and 3:18 “For God so loved the world, that He gave his only-begtton Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” And “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe is judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Jesus, according to Scripture, is not created, but on the contrary, is begotten or generated by the Father. So, the Father is responsible for the existence of the Son, but generates Him instead of creating Him. And because the Father has always been the Father, the Son has been begotten or generated from all eternity. And of course, since fathers always beget sons of the same kind as themselves, the same being as themselves, the Son is the same substance as the Father, the essence of God-head. Sons are always of the same kind as their fathers, therefore the Son cannot be another kind of god! He has to be of the same essence or being as the Father.

This is the distinction Christians make between created and begotten.